Originally posted by zod69
You seem to have missed my point. I said that a Luke who had not only turned to the dark side but also had as much access as kun had to sith teachings, he would have become more powerful. In DE, he only turned to the dark side and did not undergo all of the conditions which I had proposed.
Kun had more knowledge from Osus then Kun did... Point moot.
And you can say whatever the hell you want to say, but its up to you to prove the order didn't change as much as its up to me to prove it did. And I have already shown you plenty of examples of a changing order. You on the other hand ignore the changes in the order that were made, and claim that the aging thing wasn't part of what was changed.
Even though its very likely that it was, especially when we consider Thon doesn't even care about training older people, Nomi's husband doesn't even care about training older people. 40 years later training older people is suddenly a very big deal.
Now unless you can show examples of the older order refusing to train old people we will just have to assume that they allowed it. And in fact without clear guidelines it would be up to the master to decide if he would or would not train older students.
@ Wesker: Where does the idea come from that Exar started training on a later age anyways?
Originally posted by zod69
Look, you shouldn't take advantage of the fact that I am not going to insult you back by insulting me. I'm debating maturely and proffesionally, so it would be nice if you would do the same. In reply to 'You have nothing', you have not fully disproved what I said, and you have not given any evidence that they were trained a lot later, so I think you will find that I have much more then you do.
It's hard to disprove someone who hasn't proved anything in the first place, wouldn't you say?
This is comical. I want someone to point out exactly and in what context that Luke surpasses Kun in what would be viable in a versus match.
Someone.
Anyone.
Show me the evidence. Nai posted some nice feats, but put them in a context of a versus fight. Someone. Any Luke fanboys out there want to give it a try?
Originally posted by tdtd
Actually Wesker, try gaining some reading comprehension. I only mentioned Luke's potential once and never again. Nai's argument was based on the feats I posted, since nobody before that defended Luke in any way. And we're "blowing" Luke as you call it because you and IKC have been verbally fellating Kun for G-d knows how long, so obviously you would get upset when Kun's achievements aren't comparable to someone like Luke anymore. And Kun spent a few months? Nice speculation.... Unlike you I'm not a fanboy of anybody except maybe Ragnos, but I love to argue with fanboys.
Awesome, resort to insults when you want to prove a point. That's exactly what you should be doing.
You can't pick a side, list feats, and then use the reasoning "Nai proved it" whenever you want to make a point. Nai's points are all debatable. Show me evidence.
You realize the person that posted the most in this thread is TDTD, so calling other people who post in the thread as "nerds" really is counterproductive.
Originally posted by Fishy
Kun had more knowledge from Osus then Kun did... Point moot.And you can say whatever the hell you want to say, but its up to you to prove the order didn't change as much as its up to me to prove it did. And I have already shown you plenty of examples of a changing order. You on the other hand ignore the changes in the order that were made, and claim that the aging thing wasn't part of what was changed.
Even though its very likely that it was, especially when we consider Thon doesn't even care about training older people, Nomi's husband doesn't even care about training older people. 40 years later training older people is suddenly a very big deal.
Now unless you can show examples of the older order refusing to train old people we will just have to assume that they allowed it. And in fact without clear guidelines it would be up to the master to decide if he would or would not train older students.
@ Wesker: Where does the idea come from that Exar started training on a later age anyways?
I don't fully get what you just said at the top, but if you are implying that Kun learnt as much from Ossus as he did from Korriban and Yavin 4, you need to seriously read more of TOTJ. And it is up to you to prove that jedi trained later in the time of Exar Kun, and not up to me to prove that jedi didn't, as throughout the history of the jedi order, they had trained from a young age, and there is no evidence to suggest that they did. Therefore we have to assume that they trained from childhood as that is how it has been throughout the history of star wars (including KOTOR times which was only 40 years later) and there is no evidence to suggest otherwise. I did not ignore the changes that you listed and actually responded to them via a quote. But there are as many similarities as there changes. I am not saying that the old order were as cautious as the later order, but that does not mean that they didn't train children, as Vima is a prime example of this and the reason they did not show others is that they would have probably not contributed much to the story. It is also clear that at the time training children seemed quite natural, and this is shown when Thon doesn't even hesitate in training Vima, and Andur was positive that she would be trained by Thon.
Originally posted by zod360
I don't fully get what you just said at the top, but if you are implying that Kun learnt as much from Ossus as he did from Korriban and Yavin 4, you need to seriously read more of TOTJ. And it is up to you to prove that jedi trained later in the time of Exar Kun, and not up to me to prove that jedi didn't, as throughout the history of the jedi order, they had trained from a young age, and there is no evidence to suggest that they did. Therefore we have to assume that they trained from childhood as that is how it has been throughout the history of star wars (including KOTOR times which was only 40 years later) and there is no evidence to suggest otherwise. I did not ignore the changes that you listed and actually responded to them via a quote. But there are as many similarities as there changes. I am not saying that the old order were as cautious as the later order, but that does not mean that they didn't train children, as Vima is a prime example of this and the reason they did not show others is that they would have probably not contributed much to the story. It is also clear that at the time training children seemed quite natural, and this is shown when Thon doesn't even hesitate in training Vima, and Andur was positive that she would be trained by Thon.
and they didn't believe Thon would hesitate in training Nomi either, who was an adult. Which proves the point that the Jedi Order of that time trained both children and adults. You also haven't responded to the changes in the order yet, If you have quote your own post, otherwise respond to them.
And I meant Luke has more knowledge from Osus then Kun does.
Originally posted by Illustrious
It's hard to disprove someone who hasn't [b]proved anything in the first place, wouldn't you say?This is comical. I want someone to point out exactly and in what context that Luke surpasses Kun in what would be viable in a versus match.
Someone.
Anyone.
Show me the evidence. Nai posted some nice feats, but put them in a context of a versus fight. Someone. Any Luke fanboys out there want to give it a try?
Awesome, resort to insults when you want to prove a point. That's exactly what you should be doing.
You can't pick a side, list feats, and then use the reasoning "Nai proved it" whenever you want to make a point. Nai's points are all debatable. Show me evidence.
You realize the person that posted the most in this thread is TDTD, so calling other people who post in the thread as "nerds" really is counterproductive. [/B]
The term would be hypocritical if not counterproductive. Try again.. How does posting in this thread the most make me a nerd? And since you can't prove Kun is any better than Luke, the next thing we have to go buy is an example of all their force powers, in which Luke far surpasses Kun. I love it how all the people that verbally fellate Kun start calling other people fan boys because they don't agree with the fact that some of you have illogically elevated Kun to the status of Force God, when his force powers are below a lot of the characters.
Originally posted by tdtd
My point is Luke did more with less available to him. Obviously if he had help he would have been even more powerful but he pretty much trained himself with all those years while Kun had ancient Sith teachings... That is why DN Luke>Kun, besides the fact that he's superior to him in force abilities and maybe saber combat.
Luke had less avaliable to him, yes, and Kun has less feats written about him, and its as usual another unknown, how much Skywalker actually had, as well, by learning Sith Techniques, which are perhaps the darkest part of the force, how can you be sure Luke can even use it to Kun's extent?
If you want to speculate how much information Luke, had, then im speculating Kun did not have every or much of what he learned displayed, otherwise you can say Kun learned as much as Skywalker.
As usual, more information on a character means more feats are demonstrated, it doesnt however prove Luke > Kun, for you to prove that, you need equal amount of sources, to make it a fair comparison.
From what we have about Skywalker's lightsabers skill, and Kun's saber skill, Kun not only invented the first Double bladed lightsaber but perfected his own personal style, whilst Luke has demonstrated extreme power with his saber, he usually has the force guiding almost his every move, however, Ulic who is below Kun in terms of lightsaber combat ( when kun was at his peak ) was able to defeat a angry Jedi Master, without the force.
Its logical to assume, that Kun is superior to Luke in terms of saber combat
Originally posted by zod360
Actaully Illustrious I think that Kun and DE Luke would be close and could go either way, and was saying that Luke has more potential so before you start making assertions that are just wrong, maybe you should read slightly more carefully.
Illustrious is one of the most notable debaters here, long before you came.
Kun is leagues above DE Sidious, and it took the combined power of Leia;s child, leia and DE Luke to defeat DE Sidious
You want to argue feat wars? I'll argue feat wars with you, Kun at the age of DE Luke, froze hundreds of thousands of people, killed a revered Jedi Master, knocked down Sylvar and rescued his apprentice, he also managed to drain all the life force from every single massassi, which alone is more impressive then Luke cutting through armies of Vong.
As ive stated, Kun has not half the amount of sources about him, that Luke does, meaning whilst Luke will have a clear view of EVERY SINGLE ONE OF HIS FEATS, Kun has not displayed half of his why? Because, he died before the situation arose for him to demonstrate more of his power, and his ability to reach a higher potential, and for all those who argue that Luke had less knowledge, then by your means, you're proving Kun has not demonstrated 1% of his feats, thereby making Kun more of an unknown and making it harder for all you Luke Fanboys to prove Luke > Kun.
How do you prove it? You prove it by saying that if luke with so few knowledge can invent and demonstrate so many feats, and you're saying Kun had the Ancient Sith's knowledge, unless you're saying most of Sadow's Knowledge consists of an amulet, a freezing or controlling spell, you're effectively proving that Kun is more of an unknown, and even so he displays feats far more impressive than DE Luke, and feats on par with DN Luke, he only displays fewer feats.
Originally posted by zod360
Actaully Illustrious I think that Kun and DE Luke would be close and could go either way, and was saying that Luke has more potential so before you start making assertions that are just wrong, maybe you should read slightly more carefully.
Strange how you completely avoid (or can't comprehend, perhaps?) my very valid question so you can come up with yet another "clever" retort. My, aren't we a funny one.
So tell me, since my reading comprehension is so bad, what relevant context is Luke superior to Kun in? Show and cite proof.
Originally posted by w00t2112
Luke had less avaliable to him, yes, and Kun has less feats written about him, and its as usual another unknown, how much Skywalker actually had, as well, by learning Sith Techniques, which are perhaps the darkest part of the force, how can you be sure Luke can even use it to Kun's extent?If you want to speculate how much information Luke, had, then im speculating Kun did not have every or much of what he learned displayed, otherwise you can say Kun learned as much as Skywalker.
As usual, more information on a character means more feats are demonstrated, it doesnt however prove Luke > Kun, for you to prove that, you need equal amount of sources, to make it a fair comparison.
From what we have about Skywalker's lightsabers skill, and Kun's saber skill, Kun not only invented the first Double bladed lightsaber but perfected his own personal style, whilst Luke has demonstrated extreme power with his saber, he usually has the force guiding almost his every move, however, Ulic who is below Kun in terms of lightsaber combat ( when kun was at his peak ) was able to defeat a angry Jedi Master, without the force.
Its logical to assume, that Kun is superior to Luke in terms of saber combat
Kun's feats are NOT on par with DN Luke that's the point. And you want to say Kun had less to work with? Dear lord he had the guidance of an ancient sith, Sadow's Amulet, teachings, etc.. Luke would only be so lucky to have that kind of information. And no it is not logical to assume that Kun is better than Luke just because he invented his own style. Where does the logic come in? I can also say that when Luke fought DE Sidious, it looked like two bright lights, because they were moving at enormous speeds. Obviously nothing about Kun's skill describes him being faster than the eye, so with that we can say Luke is superior to Kun. Just using your logic.
Originally posted by tdtd
Kun's feats are NOT on par with DN Luke that's the point. And you want to say Kun had less to work with? Dear lord he had the guidance of an ancient sith, Sadow's Amulet, teachings, etc.. Luke would only be so lucky to have that kind of information. And no it is not logical to assume that Kun is better than Luke just because he invented his own style. Where does the logic come in? I can also say that when Luke fought DE Sidious, it looked like two bright lights, because they were moving at enormous speeds. Obviously nothing about Kun's skill describes him being faster than the eye, so with that we can say Luke is superior to Kun. Just using your logic.
Perhaps learning to read would help you, I said that he did not display all that he had learned, and did not say that he did not have the information, merely he was never placed in a situation where his life was threatened UNTIL thousands upon thousands of force users came after him, i doubt DN Luke would survive that, meaning in which case, any knowledge he possesed apart from entombing his spirit wouldn't enable him to survive.
Just like i said, Luke has around 10 times the amount of sources, Hence the sources that depict Kun's feats cannot be his only feats, they are his only feats displayed, and even those few feats are on par with DN Luke's
Draining Massassi = or > Defeating an Army of Vong
You say his Emerald Lightning is a instakill, yet it hasn't been proven that it would work on a force user, just as Kun's beams are instakill's yet it hasn't been proven, how can you prove Emerald Lightning > Kun's Sith Blast
Oh Dear Luke fanboy alert, whilst i've listed Kun's feats, i have not gone and said : Therefore Kun is more powerful than DN Luke.
"I can also say that when Luke fought DE Sidious, it looked like two bright lights, because they were moving at enormous speeds"
From who's point of view and of those people who witnessed, had they witnessed the prowess of the Dark Lords that preceded them? No, the comment holds no value, it was merely based from words from a spectator who had never exeperienced Jedi vs Sith outside of Sidious and Luke, whilst Kun has been crowned by Ragnos, a sheer feat by that standard as well as being proclaimed as the "most formiadable student i have ever had" - Vodo, a jedi master, having trained Jedi for 600 years has more value than someone, who has at most 10 years of experience in viewing force users.
Originally posted by Illustrious
Strange how you completely avoid (or can't comprehend, perhaps?) my very valid question so you can come up with yet another "clever" retort. My, aren't we a funny one.So tell me, since my reading comprehension is so bad, what relevant context is Luke superior to Kun in? Show and cite proof.
"It's hard to disprove someone who hasn't proved anything in the first place, wouldn't you say?
This is comical. I want someone to point out exactly and in what context that Luke surpasses Kun in what would be viable in a versus match.
Someone.
Anyone.
Show me the evidence. Nai posted some nice feats, but put them in a context of a versus fight. Someone. Any Luke fanboys out there want to give it a try?"
If this is what you are talking about, I don't see what your point is. This seems more relevant to TDTD.