DN Luke Runs a Short Guantlet

With that the thread should end. Everything was perfectly stated, too bad I couldn't do all of that. Yes I tend to believe NJO is at least on part with Kun while DN Luke is superior. When you talk about fighting Sadow, an ancient sith, that's a tough one. From what we know, Sadow was uber powerful in the time where the sith were the most powerful, so I would say DN Luke is on par with him. We can't honestly suggest that he's better althoug a lot of his feats were. It's simply because Sadow was a DLOTS in the Golden Age, and his power is amazing. But yea DN Luke would make it to Sadow and possibly all the way.

So we should end this thread because you're convinced of something you were convinced about before you ever so much as cracked open a DN book?

How ridiculous.

Man Borbarad's a really good debater.

Yeah, now that he supports you. If he wasn't supporting you, he wouldn't make any sense. You don't accept anything contrary to your own views.

He doesn't agree with me on issues such as how powerful Ragnos is. I still think he is a pretty good debator. I judge how great a debater someone is not by what his opinions are but on how well he is able to make others believe in his opinions.

Wesker, I don't accept anything but my own views? Can we say hypocrite? You and IKC are exactly the same. Always biased Kun arguments, anti Luke arguments. At least I can admin someone is better, specifically Kun. You and IKC can't.

Because IKC provides a good argument with evidence and you and Numan just talk out of your asses, somehow we are the fanboys? Right.

Why are you bringing me into this?

Brings good evidence? Where? How? Do you not know how to argue realistically? So if I sit there write a novel and provide scans for you that will be considered a good argument? Show me one good argument IKC has made. The only people that seem to argue as logically as possible are Nai, Illustrious(Dunno if thats the same people), and Borborad. Everybody else is either a fanboy or anti something, including me.

The people who seem to argue most logically are Borbarad and occasionally people like lightsnake or Illustrious or Faunus. I can admit that I often don't put in too much effort and occasionally am quite wrong.

Numan, go away!

a)
In the scene were Luke gets attacked by Kun's spirit and Kyp Durron in the Jedi Academy trilogy, Anderson states that Luke would have been able to defeat both Kun and Kyp if only one of them would have attacked him. So Luke 20 years before DN was superior to Kun's spirit. This is why Kun never attacked Luke alone - and we're talking about Kun's spirit who still fried one of Luke's students, knocked another one off without effort and force choked the entirety of Luke's students at once.

Even while I agree that a living Kun would be stronger than his spirit I fail to see why Luke - who is superior to Kun's spirit - shouldn't be able to take the living Kun with additional 20 years of training and experience.

First: Provide the quote.

Second: The quote doesn't even make sense. How does he beat both of them if he only fights one of them?

Third: This doesn't prove he was superior to Kun's spirit yet, or Luke would have eradicated him by himself.

So you fail to see why he shouldn't take a living Kun? Right.

Here's the counter: Freedon and Exar's spirits are roughly comparable in abilities. Freedon, after just 400 years of death, claimed that he was powerless. Exar was dead for four thousand years - his powers diminished exponentially. Ergo, there's no reason to assume that because Luke was supposedly superior to Kun's weakened, half-mad, 4000 year old spirit that he could take Kun at the prime of his life, even with 20 years of so-called "training and experience."

b)
The fight against the Vong is a good example for Luke's combat abilities. He moves so fast that even trained Jedi can't follow his physical movements any longer. Even if Jaina's thoughts here are a hyperbole ("seems as if he was wielding 20 lightsabers at once", "unstoppable"😉 he must have been unbelieveable fast.
Than he just rips through 7 slayers as if they were nothing. Kyp Durron - who isn't a weakling exactly - had problems with a single slayer. Luke killed 7 without much effort after cutting his way to what seemed to be an army of Yuuzhan Vong. And his "emerald lightning instakill" (which was in fact an instakill as Faunus has corrected my own view of that scene) was used against a being that should have been immune to the said effect. That even trumps instakilling a force user - something compareable would be using the mind-trick on Jabba. It simply shouldn't work - yet it did.

All this actually proves is that Luke is better than the people he trained - big ****ing surprise.

Even if we accept the premise that he's "unbelievably fast," how is pure speed going to win anything? I guess that's why Grievous beat the shit out of Obi-Wan Ken... oh, wait. He didn't. "But zOMG, hE wA$ f@$ter!111ONE11!11!!ELEVEN"

Looks like speed isn't the end-all, be-all.

As for the slayers... so? A bunch of people who, again, can't feel the Force. All this proves is that Luke is superior to someone he trained. We've already established this point. How are the Slayers any better than Kun's Massassi, whom he dominated? You realize that one demonstrated the capability to floor angry Jedi with bare hands?

As for the "emerald lightning," even if it worked against a being who can't feel the Force, how is it more impressive than an attack against a being who can feel the Force and can resist the attack with the Force? Oh wait, that's your subjective, unsupported opinion. Huh.

So I guess if Yoda popped out of Luke's ass and dropped an X-Wing on a Vong with the Force, you'd claim it to be more impressive than, say, killing Sidious with Force Lightning. Good to know.

c)
The DN / JA-trilogy situation I've mentioned. The combined power of Luke's student was enough to force push a star-destroyer out of the Yavin system. It took the combined power of more Jedi with better training and more experience to block one of Raynar's attacks while Luke blocked the same thing on his own.
I know that the amount of force power Raynar was wielding isn't exactly quantifiyable - but still that entire situation is grotesque if you suggest that Luke's own force power is on par or even above the combined power of dozens of his students. Especially thinking about the fact that the combined power of several individuals appears to be greater than their individual powers added (that's what it looks like when Luke's students together could force push a stardestroyer...)

Good job, you can leave important bits of information out!

Yes, they force pushed a star destroyer out of orbit. Very impressive if that's all you tell us about the event. What you're leaving out is that they were on Yavin IV and using the temples which were designed for the purpose of "focusing intense (dark side) energies to this place," as the TOTJ narrator describes it.

I think that sufficiently destroys your "zomg, they couldn't block Raynar!" point.

As for quantifying, I think the "new evidence" I brought to light (and you kept hidden) destroys that too.

Sure Kun is a lightsaber prodigy. We don't have to argue about that. On the other hand Kun didn't have too much training to perfect his skills. We know that Mace Windu is a lightsaber prodigy (anybody want to argue that ?) but even with nearly 5 decades of training he wasn't able to beat Yoda. Dooku was a master of form II - possibly using that style for 80 years. Also not able to defeat Yoda in a lightsaber duel. Now Luke in DE fought a person that gave both Yoda and Mace a pretty nice fight and Luke won. And he did that without much lightsaber vs lightsaber combat experience. Now I fail to see how 20 years filled with lightsaber vs lightsaber combat and force training added to somebody who already had a lightsaber skill that was above the ones of Obi-Wan or Anakin (or on par with Yoda, Mace, Dooku) would make him less skilled than somebody like Kun. Just because Kun has beaten Vodo who's fighting skills are great without a doubt but we can't say he's better than Yoda or Dooku or somebody else ? A little bit too much for my personal taste...

It's Star Wars According to Nai again!

Well, let me ask you again: Got any evidence that Kun "didn't have too much training to perfect his skills," or are you making things up again?

Yes, Mace and Dooku couldn't beat Yoda, so we presume. Neither could Sidious, and Mace put Sidious on his ass.

To quote myself regarding the DE Luke vs. DE Sidious fight:

Sidious had an entire lifetime to study and train apprentices... if you forget that he spent the vast majority of that lifetime planning to take over the Republic, being a politician, and running the Empire. So I guess that's why he beat Mace Wind... oh wait. I guess having little responsibilities other than typical Jedi duties leaves one more time to train with their lightsaber after all! This is leaving out the fact that, twenty some-odd years later, he got his ass handed to him by a farmboy who picked up the weapon less than a decade earlier and who still used it like a baseball bat five years after. Doesn't look like he's been keeping up his saber practices, does it?

So, looks like Luke's saber skills were not on par with either Mace or Yoda's even at the time of DE. Why? Because Sidious sucked ass. He obviously wasn't doing much practicing while he was running the Empire, which is why his hand was hewn off by a farmboy who has had no saber training with living, breathing instructors who sparred with him.

On the other hand you have Kun, who beat the shit out of Vodo, a 600 year old Jedi master who would wipe his ass with Yoda. Kun, who killed him with comical ease. Kun, who invented his own style and unique weapon.

Yeah. Lightsaber skills - Advantage, Kun.

Then Kun has killed Odan using the force. Odan had attacked Kun with a great amount of his power before and was weakend by age (put it like you want but that was clearly the case). What makes you think that Kun can reproduce that action against somebody who appears to be quite more powerful compared to Odan, is in a better physical condition and has already shown the ability to block rediculous powerful force attacks ? I don't see it...
While on the other handside Luke used some instakill on a being which - theoretically - should have been completely immune against force attacks.

I'm going to post my answer from the other thread, as you're making the same bullshit unsupported assumptions:

Also, you've zero evidence to make the claim that Odan used a great amount of his own power to make that attack. Nice unsupported assertion and, consequently, irrelevant misdirection.

And DE Sidious and Luke's power in comparison to Odan's is not as vast as you'd oh-so-love it to be. Indeed, Odan's probably closer to Luke than you'd like, given that he's probably forgotten more about the Force than our strikeout champ will ever learn.

There's no evidence for him being weakened by age:

No, Odan was certainly spry and on-the-ball enough to recognize Kun as a threat and lash out with an attack. He was not dying until Kun hit him, until we see some real evidence to the contrary.

See the above for my response to your emerald lightning nonsense.

So what has Kun left. His "freezing" ability ? He never demonstrated that against force users. "Controlling others" - again never demonstrated against force users and I think that both things would have been pretty useful when he was confronting Ulic and Aleema, Vodo, Odan or basically anybody he met. Especially Kun who likes to toy with his enemies wouldn't have let a chance pass to demonstrate his vast superiority - or would he ?

Yes Nai, absence of proof is proof of absence. Great debating skill!

Nevermind that Kun controlled an insane amount of multiracial beings. Oh no, absence of proof is proof of absence, that means he can't do it to a Force user because he's never tried!

Tell me, Nai, how useful would it have been to him when he curbstomped everyone he met face-to-face during the Sith War, anyway? So because he doesn't toy with his Force-sensitive enemies by controlling them, that means he can't? Great debating skill.

Now the only thing we have is Kun's amulet. He even said himself that he wasn't nearly able to control the blasts coming from that amulet - and - suggesting IKC is right - he never used it to blast another force user. Why not ? At least I fail to see why Kun should be able to use it precisely against somebody moving as fast as Luke can or why it should have any great effect on a person able to block (or "turn away"😉 fire from a stardestroyer and an AT-AT as well as massive force attacks. I even fail to see how Exar would be able to use the amulet while fighting if he can only hardly control the power of the amulets blasts.

To quote myself, again:

I like how they can "move faster than blaster bolts" but Kun can't. Good standards there, Nai.

That and only one person was shown to turn away turbolaser blasts (and he's not Luke or Sidious), which again don't operate under the same principles as beams of the Force shot from someone's hands. It's unlikely at best to assume that they can just treat them exactly like turbolasers. I only said they were similar to turbolasers since they seem to cause the same amount of damage.

As for Fishy's picture, I answered already:

Yes, it's true that right as he embraced the Dark Side, he could barely control his rage (which fuels the attacks).

And when Luke picked up his father's lightsaber for the second time, a remote handed his ass to him.

Because Kun made a second amulet and because he's in greater control of his power by the time of the Sith War, there is plenty of reason to estimate that Kun is far more proficient at wielding the blasts that come from his amulet. Else, why would he have made another one?

And why is precision required when these beams are practically as large as a room?

By the way, Luke never turned away turbolasers. Raynar did.

So, yes, I fail to see how Kun would be able to defeat DN Luke. Normally even NJO Luke should be able to defeat him - redicously overpowered as NJO Luke is.

Actually, I fail to see how any known incarnation of Luke could come close to even hurting Kun.

And Sadow...well...I don't know. Given that Kun used quite much of Sadow's own knowledge while Sadow has never demonstrated any real combat ability I'm used to suggest that DN Luke might even have that fight (which would be damn hard anyway).

Yeah, nevermind that it was his vast Sith knowledge that mostly made Kun into the uber Force user he became.

Either of them would curbstomp DN Luke. All that matters is which gets to him first.

Yes Nai, absence of proof is proof of absence. Great debating skill!

Nevermind that Kun controlled an insane amount of multiracial beings. Oh no, absence of proof is proof of absence, that means he can't do it to a Force user because he's never tried!

Tell me, Nai, how useful would it have been to him when he curbstomped everyone he met face-to-face during the Sith War, anyway? So because he doesn't toy with his Force-sensitive enemies by controlling them, that means he can't? Great debating skill.

He never froze a force user when it was very useful, not once. So why should we assume he could? A bunch of creatures that weren't force users is very different. So unless he shows the ability which he never once does its proper to assume that he couldn't freeze force users.

Originally posted by IKC
First: Provide the quote.

You do notice that English isn't my mothertongue and so I don't own the orginal books with makes it quite hard to provide some actual quote - don't you ?

Second: The quote doesn't even make sense. How does he beat both of them if he only fights one of them?

Maybe I didn't express myself properly. It says that Luke could have defeated Kyp or Kun's spirit but both combined were too much for him.

Third: This doesn't prove he was superior to Kun's spirit yet, or Luke would have eradicated him by himself.

No wait. Just because the inventor of Kun says that Luke is superior to Kun's spirit that doesn't prove him to be. And you did realize that Kun never directly confronted Luke until he and Kyp ripped Luke's spirit from his body ? So Luke didn't have the chance to erradicate Kun.

Here's the counter: Freedon and Exar's spirits are roughly comparable in abilities.

They are ? Have we seen Nadd force choking 8 force users at once ? Have we seen Nadd destroying objects in the physical world ? Have we seen Nadd seperating the spirits of Jedi from their body ? Have we seen Nadd knocking of force users without effort ? Have we seen Nadd lifting a spaceship out of the gravitational pressure of a gas giant ?
I think there is a small difference between just dying or unleash your own spirit from a body in a ritual powered with the lifeforce of hundrets or thousands of beings...

Even if we accept the premise that he's "unbelievably fast," how is pure speed going to win anything? I guess that's why Grievous beat the shit out of Obi-Wan Ken... oh, wait. He didn't. "But zOMG, hE wA$ f@$ter!111ONE11!11!!ELEVEN"

Looks like speed isn't the end-all, be-all.

Where was Grievous faster than Obi-Wan ? Obviously he didn't manage to slice Obi-Wan into pieces while wielding 4 lightsabers - did he ? And Luke was moving so fast that trained Jedi couldn't follow his physical movements any longer - hard to fight somebody when you can't see his movements...don't you think so ?

As for the slayers... so? A bunch of people who, again, can't feel the Force. All this proves is that Luke is superior to someone he trained. We've already established this point. How are the Slayers any better than Kun's Massassi, whom he dominated? You realize that one demonstrated the capability to floor angry Jedi with bare hands?

You realize that one YV slayer took dozens of strikes from a lightsaber by Kyp Durron and still defeated him ? You do notice that a single YV kicked the asses of a Noghri assasination squad in the matter of seconds ? You do notice that slayers are wearing lightsaber resistant weapons and armor ? You do notice that Luke went through an army of YV's before ripping the slayers ? You do notice that said YVs are resistant to the force ?

But of course those YV slayers aren't any better than Kun's Massassi...

As for the "emerald lightning," even if it worked against a being who can't feel the Force, how is it more impressive than an attack against a being who can feel the Force and can resist the attack with the Force? Oh wait, that's your subjective, unsupported opinion. Huh.

Oh wait. YV's are immune to force attacks. Can it be that complete immunity is a little bit better than the ability to resist attacks to a certain level or block them ? Yes ? So can it be that using an instakill against a being which should be immune to said effect appears greater than using an attack on a weakened Jedi Master that leads to that Jedi Masters death finally ?

Yes, they force pushed a star destroyer out of orbit. Very impressive if that's all you tell us about the event. What you're leaving out is that they were on Yavin IV and using the temples which were designed for the purpose of "focusing intense (dark side) energies to this place," as the TOTJ narrator describes it.

I think that sufficiently destroys your "zomg, they couldn't block Raynar!" point.

Wooohooo....It's new to me that the Luke's students are now dark siders equipped with the knowledge to use the tempels built by Kun. If that destroys anything than it only destroys the image of Kun's spirit being powerful since he just used the power of the tempels, right ?
And ups....so Luke was more powerful than the spirit of Exar Kun when Kun was using that uber powerful focus tempels ? Haha.

Well, let me ask you again: Got any evidence that Kun "didn't have too much training to perfect his skills," or are you making things up again?

Yeah. Of course Kun is so uber-genious that he can trump decades of training in a single year. This is logic according to IKC.

So, looks like Luke's saber skills were not on par with either Mace or Yoda's even at the time of DE. Why? Because Sidious sucked ass. He obviously wasn't doing much practicing while he was running the Empire, which is why his hand was hewn off by a farmboy who has had no saber training with living, breathing instructors who sparred with him.

May I remind you that Yoda in ROTS told Obi-Wan that he isn't powerful enough to deal with the Emperor. May I remind you that Sidious was superior to Maul in terms of lightsaber duels who isn't the lazy ass exactly. And may I remind you that DE Sidious has a younger body and more force control than his ROTS self ?

That just makes DE Luke superior to the likes of Obi-Wan and Maul in terms of fighting skills but nevermind - just an untrained farmboy.

On the other hand you have Kun, who beat the shit out of Vodo, a 600 year old Jedi master who would wipe his ass with Yoda. Kun, who killed him with comical ease. Kun, who invented his own style and unique weapon.

Oh. So because your assumption that Vodo could wipe his ass with Yoda that begs for proof, Kun is the lightsaber god. Yeah...I love it how a lightsaber prodigy who invented his own style (Mace) wasn't able to beat Yoda with 5 decades of training - but another lightsaber prodigy could wipe his ass with Vodo after a few years of training at max. Yeah. I totally see that Vodo must be > Yoda here.
No...I don't...

Yes Nai, absence of proof is proof of absence. Great debating skill!

Nevermind that Kun controlled an insane amount of multiracial beings. Oh no, absence of proof is proof of absence, that means he can't do it to a Force user because he's never tried!

Yeah....nevermind that Kun never controlled anybody except the Chancellor and he needed to use his amulet for this as far as we know lets just go and assume that he just can do everything he wants before he falls off the fanboy pedestial we but him on. Great debating skill, IKC !

By the way, Luke never turned away turbolasers. Raynar did.

Luke turned away fire from an AT-AT which we have seen able to destroying complete buildings in ESB. And of course - because Luke has proven himself to be superior to Raynar he can't reproduce that feat. Nice use of logic there, IKC...

And I love how you simply ignore the question how you gonna hit somebody that can move faster than blaster beams with a beam from another weapon. Especially when said person can't hardly control that weapon himself as he himself said. But nevermind...

Thanks for shutting up Borborad again IKC, your ability to argue on this matter is superior to mine. IKC, i'm tired of your biased crap. Your logic was completely thrown out the window when the odds were against Kun, so now you exaggerate his feats, downplay Luke's ignore quotes, etc... Nice debating skills champ.

I say Exar Kun and DN Luke KO each other...

EDIT: That guy two posts ahead of me just PWNT IKC and Kun at once. I am beginning to feel DN Luke will make it past Kun alive.

Exar Kun and NJO Luke would KO each other, DN Luke is superior to Kun. LOTF Luke will be superior to Artoo, hopefully.

Well tdtd, I haven't really read the DN series, all my knowledge about it really comes from other posters and Databank.

Yea same here I have the books but I can't read them til I read the entire NJO series, but I do get quotes and accomplishments through the internet. In NJO they sorta make him look like a Force God, but in DN they make every attempt to do so. He's still superior to Kun.