tdtd, it's just annoying when you jump on the back of someone like Nai and pretend that you actually helped in proving someone wrong.
Exar Kun and NJO Luke would KO each other, DN Luke is superior to Kun. LOTF Luke will be superior to Artoo, hopefully.
And this is total BS. Where is your proof for this? If you posted it elsewhere, repost it here.
Originally posted by Wesker
Yeah, but a sustained image of nekkid Padme for a whole ten seconds could make him temporarily weak enough to be defeated by like... every force user who ever existed pooling their powers and eating Kaiburr crystals.
But only mighty Artoo can project such a sustained image, so it's moot.
I agree Artoo is a force god. I also understand that none of you have been able to effectively argue that Kun>Luke and vice versa. I agree with Illustrious' take that we can't very well tell who would win in a 1 on 1 bout. I also laugh at IKC's fanboyism, and you guys can deny it all you want, but I'm stating what you're all thinking.
Originally posted by Illustrious
But only mighty Artoo can project such a sustained image, so it's moot.
Well said. And even if it were to somehow happen, the image of Padmé would be stalemated by teh Artoo releasing micro-Jawa blackaging to shield himself, then WTFshock the creator, who'd already be dead from the exposah.
Fishy:
He never froze a force user when it was very useful, not once. So why should we assume he could? A bunch of creatures that weren't force users is very different. So unless he shows the ability which he never once does its proper to assume that he couldn't freeze force users.
What situation is this that it would have been "very useful" for Kun to control a Force user? Oh, wait, it's "none?" Because Kun was already able to WTFpwn everyone of his time already? I thought so.
So, absence of proof is not proof of absence. I doubt very much that controlling a single Force user is incredibly harder than controlling the entire Senate.
Nai:
You do notice that English isn't my mothertongue and so I don't own the orginal books with makes it quite hard to provide some actual quote - don't you ?
And I do own the original books, and English is my first language. I actually read the relevant sections of Dark Apprentice and Champions of the Force last night. I'll go into this after quoting:
Maybe I didn't express myself properly. It says that Luke could have defeated Kyp or Kun's spirit but both combined were too much for him.
I read the relevant section, and it says nothing of the sort. It doesn't even read that Luke could have defeated Kyp by himself, much less Kun. It only reads that he was overwhelmed by their combined strength.
Good job making things up again.
No wait. Just because the inventor of Kun says that Luke is superior to Kun's spirit that doesn't prove him to be. And you did realize that Kun never directly confronted Luke until he and Kyp ripped Luke's spirit from his body ? So Luke didn't have the chance to erradicate Kun.
Oh, so you can literally make up a quote, reference it indirectly, and claim it as canon?
Okay. George Lucas said that Exar Kun pwns all. QED.
So Kun never directly confronted Luke before then? Is that why Kun appeared as Luke's father in one of Luke's dreams? Oh, I guess I must not have read that.
Nice job knowing what you're talking about, Nai.
They are ? Have we seen Nadd force choking 8 force users at once ? Have we seen Nadd destroying objects in the physical world ? Have we seen Nadd seperating the spirits of Jedi from their body ? Have we seen Nadd knocking of force users without effort ? Have we seen Nadd lifting a spaceship out of the gravitational pressure of a gas giant ?
We saw Nadd's spirit instakill King Ommin, who was able to wtfpwn Arca Jeth. We saw him cause an avalanche which crushed Exar Kun's bones. We saw him knock Vodo Baas to the ground. We saw him then heal Exar Kun's body with the Dark Side.
I'd say their abilities are roughly comparable. Nice job knowing what you're talking about.
I think there is a small difference between just dying or unleash your own spirit from a body in a ritual powered with the lifeforce of hundrets or thousands of beings...
Except that there's no visible difference in their capabilities other than Nadd was apparently free to roam the galaxy.
Where was Grievous faster than Obi-Wan ? Obviously he didn't manage to slice Obi-Wan into pieces while wielding 4 lightsabers - did he ? And Luke was moving so fast that trained Jedi couldn't follow his physical movements any longer - hard to fight somebody when you can't see his movements...don't you think so ?
Where was he faster than Obi-Wan? Mostly when he was spinning his lightsabers like buzzsaws at him.
Yes, Jedi trained by Luke couldn't follow his movements with their eyes. That means Force users who are far superior to them wouldn't be able to, either?
And Luke didn't seem to have much trouble deflecting lasers after getting the hang of not being able to see them. Your point collapses.
"Your eyes can deceive you, don't trust them."
You realize that one YV slayer took dozens of strikes from a lightsaber by Kyp Durron and still defeated him ? You do notice that a single YV kicked the asses of a Noghri assasination squad in the matter of seconds ? You do notice that slayers are wearing lightsaber resistant weapons and armor ? You do notice that Luke went through an army of YV's before ripping the slayers ? You do notice that said YVs are resistant to the force ?
And Kyp Durron is any good in the grand scheme of things? I'd rather face a Vong than a Dark-Side-powered Massassi warrior who was able to floor Jedi with bare hands while not wearing any armor whatsoever.
And Vong are not immune to physical manifestations of the Force: dropping a rock on its head will still hurt, for example. Shooting lightning at it will still fry it.
So they exist outside the Force - so does a rock. A rock certainly is not alive - it has no midichlorians. By your logic, no Jedi should be able to use the Force on a rock in any capacity. However, we see that they can.
But of course those YV slayers aren't any better than Kun's Massassi...
Whenever the Vong suddenly become attuned to the Dark Side and start flooring pissed-off Jedi with bare hands while not wearing any armor, I'll rate them as good as the Massassi.
Oh wait. YV's are immune to force attacks. Can it be that complete immunity is a little bit better than the ability to resist attacks to a certain level or block them ? Yes ? So can it be that using an instakill against a being which should be immune to said effect appears greater than using an attack on a weakened Jedi Master that leads to that Jedi Masters death finally?
Again:
And Vong are not immune to physical manifestations of the Force: dropping a rock on its head will still hurt, for example. Shooting lightning at it will still fry it.So they exist outside the Force - so does a rock. A rock certainly is not alive - it has no midichlorians. By your logic, no Jedi should be able to use the Force on a rock in any capacity. However, we see that they can.
Secondly, your assertion that Odan was weakened is an unsupported assertion. The fact that you continue to repeat it shows a strong level of bias.
So yes, instakilling a 1000-year-old Jedi Master who at least should have a means to resist the attack trumps instakilling what amounts to a marauding primitive who has no hope of using the Force to resist the attack.
Wooohooo....It's new to me that the Luke's students are now dark siders equipped with the knowledge to use the tempels built by Kun. If that destroys anything than it only destroys the image of Kun's spirit being powerful since he just used the power of the tempels, right ?
Except there's no proof that the energy need be Dark Side. If anything, the artifacts of the Sith work off the energy and nature of the users; inanimate objects are not and cannot be inherently light or dark side, else they'd be Force users in their own right.
And how does it destroy Kun's image when it can be argued that everyone else was using the temples as well? Doesn't seem like he has much of an advantage there, hm? Nice double standards, Nai.
nd ups....so Luke was more powerful than the spirit of Exar Kun when Kun was using that uber powerful focus tempels ? Haha.
Except you're basing that off a "quote" which you've never provided and referenced only indirectly. Nice job making things up.
That and you're also basing it off the double standard that only Kun can use the temples.
Yeah. Of course Kun is so uber-genious that he can trump decades of training in a single year. This is logic according to IKC.
So what is this "single year" and "short amount of time" you keep making up? Got any evidence for Kun's training only lasting that long, or are you just making things up again?
May I remind you that Yoda in ROTS told Obi-Wan that he isn't powerful enough to deal with the Emperor. May I remind you that Sidious was superior to Maul in terms of lightsaber duels who isn't the lazy ass exactly. And may I remind you that DE Sidious has a younger body and more force control than his ROTS self?That just makes DE Luke superior to the likes of Obi-Wan and Maul in terms of fighting skills but nevermind - just an untrained farmboy.
And may I remind you that in DE he still got his ass kicked by a farmboy who hadn't even heard of the weapon ten years earlier? May I remind you that he got his ass kicked by a farmboy who only a couple of years before was still using said weapon like a baseball bat?
Seems like there was some skill deterioration, no? Oh, but that concept could never enter in to Nai's head - Luke has to be better than people who spent their lives training with the weapon!
Oh. So because your assumption that Vodo could wipe his ass with Yoda that begs for proof, Kun is the lightsaber god. Yeah...I love it how a lightsaber prodigy who invented his own style (Mace) wasn't able to beat Yoda with 5 decades of training - but another lightsaber prodigy could wipe his ass with Vodo after a few years of training at max. Yeah. I totally see that Vodo must be > Yoda here.
Assumption? No, it's rather well established logic.
You weren't here for this, I guess.
That and you're again inserting your unsupported assumption that Exar Kun had only a few years of training... show us the evidence, or you're just making things up. Par for the course with you, it seems.
Yeah....nevermind that Kun never controlled anybody except the Chancellor and he needed to use his amulet for this as far as we know lets just go and assume that he just can do everything he wants before he falls off the fanboy pedestial we but him on. Great debating skill, IKC !
Except that Kun controlled the entire Senate already:
The narration isn't clear what they were forced to watch, only that all of them were forced to watch it. It's proper to assume that they were forced to watch whatever Kun wanted them to watch.Now, given that they were forced to watch what Kun wanted them to watch, he must have controlled them. Why? Because the odds of every being in the Senate already looking at what Kun wants them to see, before the spell was cast, are prohibitively high. Ergo, any spectator that was, for example, looking at his shoes, picking his nose, or holding a side conversation was stopped and forced to watch what Kun made them watch. QED.
If you're going to argue that all of them were already looking at what Kun wanted them to see, you're hopeless.
And there's no evidence that he "needed" to use his amulet for jack shit other than shooting those nasty beams. "Zomg, the amulet glowed, though!" Yeah, so did Odan-Urr. He need to use a Sith amulet, now?
Good job Nai, you're falling apart.
Luke turned away fire from an AT-AT which we have seen able to destroying complete buildings in ESB. And of course - because Luke has proven himself to be superior to Raynar he can't reproduce that feat. Nice use of logic there, IKC...
Except that turbolaser fire is exponentially more powerful than what an AT-AT could put out, so nice assumption. I'm sure if Luke tried to turn away turbolaser fire he could, but with what difficulty?
How would this help him turn away the amulet blasts Exar Kun can fire? We know that since they're Force-based they operate under different principles than turbolasers already. As well, they are beams of energy rather than bursts, meaning they're constant. There's little to no reason to just automatically assume that Luke's magically immune to them.
And I love how you simply ignore the question how you gonna hit somebody that can move faster than blaster beams with a beam from another weapon. Especially when said person can't hardly control that weapon himself as he himself said. But nevermind...
Right, because Kun himself can't move faster than a blaster bolt because we have a little double-standard problem, right?
As for the "can't hardly control" bullshit:
Originally posted by Illustrious
Does it matter that Luke controlled a black hole once? Does it matter that Luke could barely cloak a ship without getting tired in DN? Does it matter that Luke could use Emerald lightning once?This logic is bullshit, Fishy, and if you have [b]any respect
for debating conventions, you'd know it.Even as a newly converted dark-sider, he was still able to control it. So why exactly wouldn't he be able to control it when he has gained a whole crapload of knowledge and power?
And Luke can use emerald lightning? Okay.
And a look at his very hand shows that there was NO DAMAGE whatsoever.
And then seconds later, he uses the amulet to destroy Freedon Nadd.
So by your logic, Luke cloaking a ship will never happen again, because he was really tired after doing it.
Uhh... no. A Kun in battle said that he couldn't control it, that he could only direct it.
The only mention the narrator says is that "with each pulse of his anger, it doubles in power."
In fact, he is shown to be perfectly fine immediately after the Sith beast was destroyed.
Yep, he feared the power so much that he used it again on Nadd, and he found/built another damn amulet![/B]
Illustriapwned.
So, beams as big as a room? Check.
Two amulets to shoot them from? Check.
No evidence of anyone but an Ancient Sith possibly having a defense against them? Check.
Looks like Luke dies.
No evidence of Kun blocking emerald lightning. Your faulty argument has to work for everybody, not only Kun. You're right, just because Kun didn't control the senate doesn't mean he can't. Just because Luke was seen using lightning on a Vong, doesn't mean he can use it on a force user. Way to open up 50 more arguments due to your biased opinions, and that's all they are. Those two are on par at the very least for Luke.
God... IKC your one of the biggest Kun fanboys I've seen. Sure you have provided a wealth of proof, but your stubberon belief that Kun would WTFpwn Luke is unfounded BS. While there is a chance that Kun could win you refuse to admit that Luke could win as well.
Also you get pissed the moment someone disagrees with you, insults seem to be your biggest weapon.
Illustriapwned.So, beams as big as a room? Check.
Two amulets to shoot them from? Check.
No evidence of anyone but an Ancient Sith possibly having a defense against them? Check.
Looks like Luke dies.
I call bullshit...
The second amulet is never shown doing the same thing as the first, except for them looking the same you have no prove that they are the same. Unless you can prove that they aren't. So he only has one amulet.
And explain then, he said he could barely control it. THe narrator says that it indeed almost destroyed him. And he only ever used it against Nadd and the Sith beasts, he was far to weak on his own to beat those two that much is clear, after that he never once used it again. Why? Because he didn't need too, or because he couldn't? I'm guessing he couldn't, he was afraid that he would die that it would destroy him.
Kun never uses the amulet again there is a reason for that, and if you never use it you won't get a better control over it. Its like saying somebody who studied the Dark Side for 50 years will become bettter with a lightsaber even though he never touched it.
And where the hell were these beams the size of a room? Making things up now?
The second amulet is never shown doing the same thing as the first, except for them looking the same you have no prove that they are the same. Unless you can prove that they aren't. So he only has one amulet.
Oh, okay. Absence of proof is proof of absence, and unless I can prove a negative then it's final?
You're in top form now, Fishy; two logical fallacies in two sentences!
So he only has one amulet... because you want it that way? Sorry. This is not Star Wars According to Fishy. His amulets are on his person and therefore permissible.
And explain then, he said he could barely control it. THe narrator says that it indeed almost destroyed him. And he only ever used it against Nadd and the Sith beasts, he was far to weak on his own to beat those two that much is clear, after that he never once used it again. Why? Because he didn't need too, or because he couldn't? I'm guessing he couldn't, he was afraid that he would die that it would destroy him.Kun never uses the amulet again there is a reason for that, and if you never use it you won't get a better control over it. Its like saying somebody who studied the Dark Side for 50 years will become bettter with a lightsaber even though he never touched it.
I guess I have to quote Illustrious, again, because you don't seem to have read what he posted:
Originally posted by Illustrious
Does it matter that Luke controlled a black hole once? Does it matter that Luke could barely cloak a ship without getting tired in DN? Does it matter that Luke could use Emerald lightning once?This logic is bullshit, Fishy, and if you have [b]any respect
for debating conventions, you'd know it.Even as a newly converted dark-sider, he was still able to control it. So why exactly wouldn't he be able to control it when he has gained a whole crapload of knowledge and power?
And Luke can use emerald lightning? Okay.
And a look at his very hand shows that there was NO DAMAGE whatsoever.
And then seconds later, he uses the amulet to destroy Freedon Nadd.
So by your logic, Luke cloaking a ship will never happen again, because he was really tired after doing it.
Uhh... no. A Kun in battle said that he couldn't control it, that he could only direct it.
The only mention the narrator says is that "with each pulse of his anger, it doubles in power."
In fact, he is shown to be perfectly fine immediately after the Sith beast was destroyed.
Yep, he feared the power so much that he used it again on Nadd, and he found/built another damn amulet![/B]
And where the hell were these beams the size of a room? Making things up now?
Well that would depend on how big the room is, but observe:
Note how the beams increase in size as they move away from his hands, especially in the second scan. They're already enormous in what is shown in the scans. I'd say those are sufficiently big to call them room-sized.
Nice try.
Originally posted by Akechi Misuhide
God... IKC your one of the biggest Kun fanboys I've seen. Sure you have provided a wealth of proof, but your stubberon belief that Kun would WTFpwn Luke is unfounded BS. While there is a chance that Kun could win you refuse to admit that Luke could win as well.Also you get pissed the moment someone disagrees with you, insults seem to be your biggest weapon.
Who put the bug up your ass, Veneficus? You just bust the **** out of nowhere like Mister Kool-Aid and proclaim IKC a fanboy?
Let me point out the hypocrisy of your situation:
- You don't even debate regularly on these forums, yet you read them all the time. And then you ***** about people getting "upset" over "fiction" and yet look at your above post.
- You come out of left field and call IKC a fanboy yet he's provided better logical arguments and provided more proof than anyone else. I hate to break this to you (And everyone else), but using logic and having proof is exactly the opposite of a fanboy.
- I love the statement "Sure you have provided a wealth of proof, but your stubberon belief that Kun would WTFpwn Luke is unfounded BS." It doesn't take a debating champion to point out your clear and present contradiction in this sentence. In one breath you laud IKC for having a wealth of proof (Which no one else provides) and then you say his belief is unfounded BS! This is like me giving a thesis on why Vaapad is good against dark sided enemies and you say "lol nice info but thats all unfounded BS". Please. Unless you can discredit him with an argument, stfu.
- And lastly, why do you assume that everyone's all "pissed off" over this stuff? You really think we all log off and pace the floors and swear because "OMfg teh internet noobd doesnt agre wit me"? Please. The only one here having a stroke is you, and you need to lighten the **** up or shut the **** up, one or the other. The only thing you're doing is trolling and bashing IKC for having perhaps the best elaborated views on this forum while bringing nothing to the table yourself. Anyone can barge into a discussion and insult people. I could barge into a corporate meeting for Microsoft an start calling Bill Gates a greedy mother****er, but that doesn't mean I have a leg to stand on.
Originally posted by w00t2112
Kun and Luke were both exceptional force users and lightsaber combatants, really, tdtd is right here, there is no evidence for either side, saying that the emerald lightning and the amulet blasts can kill force users instantly, IKC, somehow you should look on both sides and not only one.
I'll stop insulting IKC now but when you're a fanboy you only see 1 side of things. And Wesker, yea he called IKC a fanboy.. What's that? You're surprised? I told you I just say what people are thinking, and if IKC is the biggest Kun fanboy then you have the honor of holding second place with your crap. I agree has made SOME ok arguments but he has made zero arguments concerning Kun's superiority over DN Luke. If you call writing a novel with scans, listing feats, bullshitting and exaggerating Kun's power a logical argument, then I suggest you visit dictionary.com. IKC's arguments about Kun's power have been some of the most ridiculous crap I have ever read. Again I won't deny that I troll around because 99% of the time I don't care what you, and especially IKC, who gets worked up easily, think about me, but I don't make myself look like a fool with fanboyish arguments, and then call them logical.
Wesker: I hate to break this to you (And everyone else), but using logic and having proof is exactly the opposite of a fanboy
^Except as IKC's second in command you fail to understand the concept of logic. If you still don't understand, search for the Ragnos vs. Kun thread..
IKC either start arguing what I said or stop posting.
About the amulet, the second amulet is never shown doing the same thing as the first, and you often claim it doesn't do anything ever (like when we see it controlling the chancellor you says thats Kun) so we have no idea on what it does, or how it does anything. There is no reason to assume it does the same thing as the other amulet does. Just because something looks the same doesn't mean it is the same.
And it would depend on how big the room is... My fist is as big as a room if its a mouse room. Seriously... The beam does grow bigger though, but I see no reason to assume it would just keep on growing if it doesn'thit anything, if it did he could have fired it at the Jedi above Yavin IV and completely destroy them and their fleet of ships with one single blast.
