DN Luke Runs a Short Guantlet

"Fishy, read what I post or stop posting."

Asking your opponent to leave is a sign of defeat on your part.

About the amulet, the second amulet is never shown doing the same thing as the first, and you often claim it doesn't do anything ever (like when we see it controlling the chancellor you says thats Kun) so we have no idea on what it does, or how it does anything. There is no reason to assume it does the same thing as the other amulet does. Just because something looks the same doesn't mean it is the same.

It doesn't control the Chancellor. It is an inanimate object. It seems to be based on another inanimate object with known properties. Ergo, it is logical to assume that, unless evidence shows otherwise, they have the same properties.

And it would depend on how big the room is... My fist is as big as a room if its a mouse room. Seriously... The beam does grow bigger though, but I see no reason to assume it would just keep on growing if it doesn'thit anything, if it did he could have fired it at the Jedi above Yavin IV and completely destroy them and their fleet of ships with one single blast.

Good job taking what I said and stretching it out of reason. Within reason, that beam is room sized and Luke will be damned hard pressed to dodge one of them, much less two, fired by an experienced Force user like Kun.

And there is reason to assume that such an attack (shooting the orbiting Jedi) would be ineffective:

Obviously Kun believes any attack he could launch would fail. Rightly so, he's up against all the Jedi in the galaxy. Beside the fact that we don't know the effective range of the beams (the most we see is them clearing the entire temple room) even if they did expand, the fleet covered most of the atmosphere. He'd be an instant target for laser cannons, for instance.

Originally posted by IKC
And I do own the original books, and English is my first language. I actually read the relevant sections of Dark Apprentice and Champions of the Force last night. I'll go into this after quoting:

I read the relevant section, and it says nothing of the sort. It doesn't even read that Luke could have defeated Kyp by himself, much less Kun. It only reads that he was overwhelmed by their combined strength.

Good job making things up again.

Good job thinking that I won't be able to get myself the original text. In the end of chapter 32 of Dark Apprentice (when Luke gets attacked) it says (in both the German and English version) that Luke wanted to strike back and what stopped him was that (when he already was attacked by Kyp) Kun's spirit started attacking him too.

So ups. As it seem Luke was still superior to Kyp and since Kun's spirit never tried to attack Luke (he tried to seduce him, yes, but he never tried to attack him) when we know that he wanted Luke dead it seems as Kun's spirit on his own was also inferior compared to Luke.

And yes...it says that Kun's and Kyp's combined strength was too much for Luke when anything we have leads to the suggestion that Luke was infact superior to both of them. But nevermind IKC...

So Kun never directly confronted Luke before then? Is that why Kun appeared as Luke's father in one of Luke's dreams? Oh, I guess I must not have read that.

Nice job knowing what you're talking about, Nai.

Nice job interpreting scenarios in favor for Kun. Kun tried to seduce Luke to join him but he never tried to attack Luke before Luke's spirit was seperated from his body when we know that he - in fact - wanted Luke dead. Or is "trying to seduce somebody" now called "confrontation" or "attack" ?

We saw Nadd's spirit instakill King Ommin, who was able to wtfpwn Arca Jeth. We saw him cause an avalanche which crushed Exar Kun's bones. We saw him knock Vodo Baas to the ground. We saw him then heal Exar Kun's body with the Dark Side.

I'd say their abilities are roughly comparable. Nice job knowing what you're talking about.

Yeeeha. Nice job not knowing what you are talking about. So Nadd killed Ommin - after Ulic cut down Ommin's exosceleton of course which turned Ommin into a glibberish and helpless ball of meat, who lay on the ground having no bones screaming for Nadd's support - as can be seen here:

http://www.swcomics.com/arhive/oldrepublic/oldrepublic_18_21.jpg

Ommin "Nadd protect me !"
And Nadd's reaction (after giving Satal and Aleema some little gifts):
http://www.swcomics.com/arhive/oldrepublic/oldrepublic_18_23.jpg

Then he crushed Exar's bones at a point where Exar wasn't able to use the force. Great deal. Force heal was Luke in a state of unconciousness in the Calista trilogy. Also great deal. And Nadd floored Vodo ? Yeah right:

http://www.swcomics.com/arhive/oldrepublic/oldrepublic_38_15.jpg

He did it while Vodo was using some nice part of his power trying to protect or heal Exar. Nice job giving a Jedi who is focused on an entire different thing an attack which just floors the Jedi. What a display of power.

Except that there's no visible difference in their capabilities other than Nadd was apparently free to roam the galaxy.

Just that Nadd never did anything on par with Exar's spirit later. But nevermind...

And Kyp Durron is any good in the grand scheme of things? I'd rather face a Vong than a Dark-Side-powered Massassi warrior who was able to floor Jedi with bare hands while not wearing any armor whatsoever.

And Vong are not immune to physical manifestations of the Force: dropping a rock on its head will still hurt, for example. Shooting lightning at it will still fry it.

So they exist outside the Force - so does a rock. A rock certainly is not alive - it has no midichlorians. By your logic, no Jedi should be able to use the Force on a rock in any capacity. However, we see that they can.

Lmao. No apparently Kyp Durron isn't any good in the grand scheme of things. He's just the best non-Skywalker ever appearing in the EU but that of course means nothing. He has received knowledge from Exar Kun directly (but I guess we simply ignore that) and he has beaten everybody else in lightsaber duels (including Kyle Katarn who was not exactly trained by Luke) as far as I remember. But let us just ignore that and assume he's a weakling anyway.

Then suddenly "force lightning" is a physical manifestation - can you please give me the situation where it was used to destroy dead objects ? It didn't seem to have much effect on the ceiling when Dooku had to turn his own lightning away, Yoda had turned back on him. In fact the Vong were immune to force lightning as people tried to use it on them and failed - but we also can just ignore that because that would not be in favor of IKC, right ?

Whenever the Vong suddenly become attuned to the Dark Side and start flooring pissed-off Jedi with bare hands while not wearing any armor, I'll rate them as good as the Massassi.

Whenever a Massassi is shown to take several hits from a lightsaber and then beat the shit out of a Jedi and moves fast enough to rip apart a Noghri assasination squad in the matter of seconds I will rate them as good as YV's. What matters is the thread a being is to a Jedi - by your logic Boba Fett with all of his weapons is less dangerous than a single Massassi because Fett can't floor Jedi without his weapons.

Secondly, your assertion that Odan was weakened is an unsupported assertion. The fact that you continue to repeat it shows a strong level of bias.

So yes, instakilling a 1000-year-old Jedi Master who at least should have a means to resist the attack trumps instakilling what amounts to a marauding primitive who has no hope of using the Force to resist the attack.

Of course...my assertion that Odan was weakened is unsupported when we see him focusing on a powerful attack before getting pwned (which apparently didn't give him much time to focus on defence at the same point) and he just told Nomi that he defeated Ancient Sith in his early days when he's just explaining his failure with "I'm old...I can't stop it [the evil]".

Except there's no proof that the energy need be Dark Side. If anything, the artifacts of the Sith work off the energy and nature of the users; inanimate objects are not and cannot be inherently light or dark side, else they'd be Force users in their own right.

Oh great. Because we have nothing to even suggest that Luke's students did use the temple built by a Sith Lord they surely must have done that when they didn't know anything about the temples or their function. Yap...sure. And inanimate objects cannot be inherently light or Dark Side ? I wonder if you just did miss Naga Sadow's blade, Tulak Hord's mask and Kun's own amulets which could only be used by Dark Siders (especially Kun's amulet is cleary powered by hate).

And how does it destroy Kun's image when it can be argued that everyone else was using the temples as well? Doesn't seem like he has much of an advantage there, hm? Nice double standards, Nai.

Oh...apparently he was the only being on the entire planet who knew about the power of the temples and the way they work - in contrary to Luke and his students. But let us again just ignore that little fact...

That and you're also basing it off the double standard that only Kun can use the temples.

Since Luke's students and Luke himself are never been shown to use the temples and Kun is the only person on the planet who did knew about the temples it's quite save to assume that Kun is the only being who did use them.

So what is this "single year" and "short amount of time" you keep making up? Got any evidence for Kun's training only lasting that long, or are you just making things up again?

Because we know that Jedi in that era weren't trained for a long amount of time as we see. And when Kun uses Vodo's holocron Vodo even tells him that he needs "a few years of training" before being ready for the hidden knowledge stored within it ? So apparently he didn't have much training (in terms of "time"😉 before the events in DLotS happen, right - and we know that he had just a year between his submission to the Dark Side and his defeat by the Jedi above Yavin 4. Maybe reading the sources would be a good idea ?

And may I remind you that in DE he still got his ass kicked by a farmboy who hadn't even heard of the weapon ten years earlier? May I remind you that he got his ass kicked by a farmboy who only a couple of years before was still using said weapon like a baseball bat?

Seems like there was some skill deterioration, no? Oh, but that concept could never enter in to Nai's head - Luke has to be better than people who spent their lives training with the weapon!

LOL. This is great. So Kun with some years of training can be better than people who used a weapon for 6 centuries - but Luke can't be above somebody who trained with that weapon for a few decades. Allright. We know that Sidious was superior to add least Maul but of course he's weaker in DE - having a younger body and more control over the force, right ? I guess the concept of "logic" could never enter your head when Kun is involved, IKC...

Assumption? No, it's rather well established logic.

No, it's just your personal opinion. So tell me how somebody who was curpstombed by Exar is widely above somebody who has 300 years more training, can dodge attacks from three lightsaber wielding opponents at once (effortless) and couldn't get defeated by a lightsaber prodigy with his own style and 5 decades of training and a Sith lord using the "refinement of lightsaber vs lightsaber fighting" for 8 decades. I'm curious.
Just because ROTS Sidious was lucky against him or the KotoR era Jedi appear to be stronger than the PT era ones in general ? Ah yeah...nice "proof" there.

Except that Kun controlled the entire Senate already:

No he didn't. If you just would understand the concept of freezing persons who - as the narrator puts it - were forced to watch and not to react you would see that Kun did just freeze them but did not control them. The entire meaning of frozen is that the didn't move when you assume that Kun made them move their heads to focus on his actions which is - oh...what an incidence - never stated in the comic.

And there's no evidence that he "needed" to use his amulet for jack shit other than shooting those nasty beams. "Zomg, the amulet glowed, though!" Yeah, so did Odan-Urr. He need to use a Sith amulet, now?

Good job Nai, you're falling apart.

We see that he moved to the Chancellor and used his amulet but he didn't use it of course because IKC didn't want him to use it. And of course he controlled everybody in the senate - which was why the Chancellor tried to attack him, right ? And of course they just show Kun using his amulet because...yeah...why they do it when he didn't need it at all ? So while I have something to suggest that Kun had to use his amulet you have nothing to suggest something different. Looks like "evidence" is > "IKC's personal interpretation"...

Except that turbolaser fire is exponentially more powerful than what an AT-AT could put out, so nice assumption. I'm sure if Luke tried to turn away turbolaser fire he could, but with what difficulty?

How would this help him turn away the amulet blasts Exar Kun can fire? We know that since they're Force-based they operate under different principles than turbolasers already. As well, they are beams of energy rather than bursts, meaning they're constant. There's little to no reason to just automatically assume that Luke's magically immune to them.

Oh wait. Just before you have told me that the force can be seen as "physical force" but now you tell me that you can't compare the power of a blast from Kun's amulet to the power of a turbolaser because a turbolaser seems to be more powerful and that would be quite destructive for your entire argument when you suggest that Luke would be able to turn away turbolaser fire ? So suddenly the force can't be compared to physical powers any longer ? And you accuse me of using double-standarts. Bwahahaha....

Right, because Kun himself can't move faster than a blaster bolt because we have a little double-standard problem, right?

Again...just for you. I was asking how he would make the blasts from the amulets fast enough to hit somebody who is moving faster than the beams. He just can't. And for the "he can't hardly control it" stuff. He did never use that amulet again even in situations where he clearly wanted some people to die (Ulic when he first confronted him) he didn't bother to blast them away but instead used his lightsaber or other force powers. Why ?
And I fail to see why his ability to control the power of the amulet should increase when he doesn't bother to use it. For the other amulet: Why would Kun construct another amulet that does exactly the same like the first when he didn't even use the first any longer ? I don't see any logic behind that.

And even when we just suggest that he can infact control the amulet at the hight of his power and if he can do the same thing with the other amulet the beams are still to slow to hit a force user trying to dodge them and we have no proof that Luke wouldn't be able to turn them away.
And if Raynar - who is inferior to Luke - can turn away the turbolaser fire from an entire Stardestroyer I don't see why Luke should have problems doing the same with 2 beams which seem to put out less energy than a turbolaser shot (as we can see when Kun "blasts" the temple wall while a SD's turbolaser is able to vaporize complete asteroids).

Wow, after reading that novel I believe you have just been pwned hardcore by a foreigner IKC.. That's some nifty work Borborad, I would have never come up with all of that.. Then again I wouldn't have written a novel.. Anyways I'm interested in hearing IKC's rebuttal, if he ever comes back after that beating.

tdtd, just shut up. You're not doing anything productive.

Oh I'm sorry, when you morons use one word "pwned" responses, nobody complains.. But when I agree with somebody that just verbally raped somebody else, you get offended. Boohoo Glentract.

All you do is ride the back of others. You aren't actually making any arguments. It's annoying.

All I do is ride the backs of others? That's quite inaccurate. No my friend, I give credit where credit is due..

Still, you insult IKC and you have no right to do so. Nai could if he wanted to, as he's made arguments against IKC, but he seems above that. The constant bashing from you is annoying. And yeah, you have ridden the backs of others a lot.

Where do you see constant bashing? Oh i'm sorry if he calls me a troll that's ok, but if I call him a fanboy I'm bashing him. I am not riding anyone's backs, I'm simply saying IKC is a Kun fanboy. You call it bashing, I call it the truth. You don't see me continuously doing it do you? No, didn't think so.

Originally posted by IKC
"Fishy, read what I post or stop posting."

Asking your opponent to leave is a sign of defeat on your part.

No i'm asking you to deal with my posts instead of posting quotes of other people that have nothing to do with this or have already been handled in a previous post, saying the same thing over and over again won't make it true.

It doesn't control the Chancellor. It is an inanimate object. It seems to be based on another inanimate object with known properties. Ergo, it is logical to assume that, unless evidence shows otherwise, they have the same properties.

Why? We never even see it do anything according to you, Kun only used his amulet once and the narrator said it almost destroyed him. Kun himself admitted that he couldn't control it, why would we assume he would create another amulet like that? When a second different amulet would not only be more impressive but far more logical.

Good job taking what I said and stretching it out of reason. Within reason, that beam is room sized and Luke will be damned hard pressed to dodge one of them, much less two, fired by an experienced Force user like Kun.

And Luke is not an experienced force user? That could simply jump over the beams if they would be fired? I don't see it past him, I don't know if he could, but still even if it would hit Luke would it kill him? We see it killing Massassi, but thats not impressive, we see it ripping through walls, but again we have seen other things do that and we know that lesser force users were able to stop it. What reason do we have to assume that it would just destroy Luke on impact, and far more importantly what makes you think Kun would use it until the very last moment of the fight if he loses when it could be to late?

And there is reason to assume that such an attack (shooting the orbiting Jedi) would be ineffective:

Obviously Kun believes any attack he could launch would fail. Rightly so, he's up against all the Jedi in the galaxy. Beside the fact that we don't know the effective range of the beams (the most we see is them clearing the entire temple room) even if they did expand, the fleet covered most of the atmosphere. He'd be an instant target for laser cannons, for instance. [/B]

Good and thats the point I wanted to make

Beside the fact that we don't know the effective range of the beams (the most we see is them clearing the entire temple room)

We don't know how big they would become or how long they would work or until how far away from the amulet they would hurt. If anything it seems the blast is more effective the closer it is to the amulet. So Kun would probably have to be close to Luke to make it really work, and unless he can fire a blast, but more importantly will fire a blast before Luke slashes him with a lightsaber (which will be easy because Kun will have to drop his guard before he can fire it) or shoot at Kun with emerald lightning, which would also be easy Kun will be dead when he tries this.

In lightsaber skills and force mastery this fight is probably incredibly close I don't know who will win but I do know that this isn't a cut and dry case where you can just say Kun > DN Luke or vice versa.

Good point. I think IKC takes his "absence of proof isn't proof of absence" argument too far. I've seen you say "Kun didn't do this, doesn't mean he can't". If you use that logic, I can take every powerful jedi/sith in the star wars galaxy and say the exact same thing. Kun's blasts are powerful, so is the emerald lightning. Yet there's no evidence suggesting that either can or cannot stop the other's power. Kun invented his own lightsaber style and Luke can't even be seen with the naked eye when he's a saber duel. Does that mean Kun isn't that fast? Not necessarily. There isn't conclusive evidence with Kun being superior to NJO Luke nor DN Luke, nor vice versa.

Also I wanted to bring up the point that somebody else made, and I forget who. They were saying Luke had more sources of knowledge. If we go by that in terms of fairness, then we'd have to start Luke off in DE, where he started to gain all of this knowledge from the Reborn Emperor and Ossus, would we not? DE is where he truly started learning. Before that what did he have?

Let's look at you never bashing IKC:

I believe you have just been pwned hardcore by a foreigner IKC

I also laugh at IKC's fanboyism

^ I can tell Kun fanboy

IKC is the biggest Kun fanboy

IKC's arguments about Kun's power have been some of the most ridiculous crap I have ever read.

you fail to understand the concept of logic

Can we say hypocrite? You and IKC are exactly the same.

IKC, i'm tired of your biased crap. Your logic was completely thrown out the window when the odds were against Kun, so now you exaggerate his feats, downplay Luke's ignore quotes, etc... Nice debating skills champ.

IKC we've already agreed, quit crying

Unlike you I'm not a fanboy of anybody

Typical imbecile..

Just because you're a TOTJ fanboy doesn't mean there's someone with a bigger brain.

Now if the fanboys want to get all angry because their hero isn't as uber powerful as their wet dreams would have allowed, then it's really not my fault is it.

The fact that I had to only look for maybe 2 minutes to find all of those even with my really slow internet connection is ridiculous. You need to cut the bashing crap, it's annoying and you have no basis from which to do it.

You know I just responded with a normal post, and youre still telling me to cut it out.

I'm staying out of this one as i don't know enough about post njo luke to make an informed descision, however on the topic of proof of absence isnt absence of proof, that's just weak, using that i can make up whatever i want and pass it off as fact or probability despite how illogical it is. that arguments only good when somethings implied but not outley said, otherwise it's just an excuse to blow things out of your ass.

Good post like the one above my previous post are very rare from you. Those are fine. The amount of bashing you do towards IKC is ridiculous though.

Originally posted by Darth_Frobo
I'm staying out of this one as i don't know enough about post njo luke to make an informed descision, however on the topic of proof of absence isnt absence of proof, that's just weak, using that i can make up whatever i want and pass it off as fact or probability despite how illogical it is. that arguments only good when somethings implied but not outley said, otherwise it's just an excuse to blow things out of your ass.

You obviously didn't read before you jumped on the bandwagon. He never said "absence of proof is not proof of absence" could use to explain that Kun can do anything.

He said if things are logical to assume true, then you can assume it true even if it was not depicted. He used a very valid example. Kun is a human. All humans have bowel movements. Therefore Kun takes shits even though he was never depicted as doing so. Absence of Kun taking it a shit in the comics does not proof Kun never took a shit. Got it? IKC was applying logical premises towards his argument.

I didn't say he couldn't use the 'absence of proof isn't proof of absense' altogether, I said in most of the ways he uses it is biased and illogical. When it is said the senate were frozen, he tried to imply that they were controlled and if they weren't Kun could have easily done so. What I'm saying is if you're going to use that as your argument, you could make a case for most of the powerful jedi/sith that would diminish Kun's achievement/s

Originally posted by tdtd
I didn't say he couldn't use the 'absence of proof isn't proof of absense' altogether, I said in most of the ways he uses it is biased and illogical. When it is said the senate were frozen, he tried to imply that they were controlled and if they weren't Kun could have easily done so. What I'm saying is if you're going to use that as your argument, you could make a case for most of the powerful jedi/sith that would diminish Kun's achievement/s

I don't disagree. I agree that his argument about controlling the members fo the senate seems a bit of a stretch, but he does make a very valid point, even if it is a passing one. The odds of every individual in the senate already looking at what Kun wants them to are so ridiculously small that it's practically an impossibility. Out of tens or hundreds of thousands of people (or more), to imagine that a couple of them wouldn't be talking amonst themselves, looking at something else, picking their nose, or rubbing their tentacles just seems far-fetched.

What do you suppose the narrator meant by "The senate was frozen by a sith spell and forced to watch"? They all had their attention to the very center where the chancellor was. It's up for debate I agree but things like that are what I was referring to, "just because he didn't control the senate doesn't mean he can't" type of arguments.'

And I agree I've made them too.. But for instance how does manipulating a black hole help Luke take down Kun? How does Kun controlling the senate help him take down Luke? Where's the evidence that Luke could use emerald lightning on Kun, or Kun can use the sith blasts on Luke. Where's the evidence that Kun can take Luke because he invented his own saber style and took down Vodo. Where's the evidence Luke can take down Kun because he's so quick in a fight you can't see him. Actually that specifically is more evidence in favor of Luke, because we witness how quick he is, but nothing is said about Kun's quickness.