Originally posted by Gamblor
I also like how TOTJ covered up their own bullshit by making this incredible knowledge lost over time though various wars and conflicts, conveniently making it unavailable to any future generations.
Thats not really true, most Jedi survived the war, so most of the knowledge they had would remain. Kun only took a small bit of knowledge from Osus we see other Jedi take far more then that. After ROTJ Luke enters a library from Osus its time that still stands with more knowledge in it then Kun took from it (which was already more then he could learn in a life time) Its very unlikely that the Jedi never went back to Osus to look for remains of knowledge on the planet.
It wasn't until 40 years after Osus, just after the Jedi Civil war that most of the knowledge got lost, with the Jedi Order almost completely destroyed.
Originally posted by Gamblor
A shitload of Ancient Sith "dark alchemy", or "sith magics" (whatever the hell they call it) was lost during the Hyperspace war.
Well if there weren't Sith to practice it, you'd think it wouldn't be lost?
Oh wait, of course not. We still have all the knowledge, information, and artifacts on the Ancient Egyptians and Babylonians. Let's use some common sense here.
No, but we have far superior knowledge, information, and artifacts to the Babylonians and Egyptians. It's not the fact that they lost this super power that's demented, it's the fact that their power was super in the first place.
Really, the "massive powers of the Ancients" is a lame sci-fi/fantasy cliche I'd like to see mostly demolished.
Originally posted by Gamblor
No, but we have far superior knowledge, information, and artifacts to the Babylonians and Egyptians. It's not the fact that they lost this super power that's demented, it's the fact that their power was super in the first place.Really, the "massive powers of the Ancients" is a lame sci-fi/fantasy cliche I'd like to see mostly demolished.
Not really. After the Roman Empire collapsed, you saw a large recession in the arts and learning. And this is without taking into account things such as "the force" and "magic."
Obviously if you eliminate the practitioners of those superpowers, the power would no longer be there. And you see a movement away from force, saber-to-saber fighting, and a heavier emphasis on technology. That's hardly difficult to believe. I doubt many people today would be able to outfight a samurai or a Spartan, for example.
Not really. After the Roman Empire collapsed, you saw a large recession in the arts and learning.
Dark Ages, yep. But slowly but surely that knowledge was regained and improved.
Obviously if you eliminate the practitioners of those superpowers, the power would no longer be there. And you see a movement away from force, saber-to-saber fighting, and a heavier emphasis on technology. That's hardly difficult to believe. I doubt many people today would be able to outfight a samurai or a Spartan, for example.
Of course, the Great Hyperspace War was a good way to kill off the information, I just find it odd how these Ancient Sith managed to develop this incredible power from scratch. Ajunta Pal did teach them to master the force most likely, but going from there to playing ping ping with stars seems like a stretch.
Sadow and Kressh were too wussy to even touch him.
He had sith magic infused sword (at least as powerful as a lightsaber) and a rod that can apparently drain planets (not sure of this)
He reduced Simus, a Sith Lord of repute into nothing more than a head.
He ruled the galaxy with an iron fist to the end of his natural life; no other Sith Lord could duplicate this.
He could disintegrate planets by staring at them (j/k)
Originally posted by zod360
Listen dude, I am in no way a fan of anything post ROTJ. I have said many times that my favorite time preiods are KOTOR and KOTOR2, the PT times and Darth Bane's times. I am also quite interested in the comics about Kun, Sunrider and Quel-Droma. And Ragnos and Sadow did not have to neccesarily be that strong in the force to create those artifacts, and it is more likely to assume that they were great alchemists because of those artifacts. And to add to your second point, it was not because of the fact that Ragnos had once been so strong in the force that it took the force power of dozens of planets, but because the revival of ANYONE is a very complex thing and Tavion was not particularly strong in the force herself.
Yes, tavion a pure weakling, still caused JA Luke (after de) a huge amount of trouble, with the scepter's power, she empowered non force users, with the force. Anyone? except DE Sidious, didnt require half as much.
For you to believe someone is powerful, you want an excessive amount of feats, in other words, you argue purely on feat wars. Ragnos is proclaimed the most powerful of the most powerful, his power is not quantified.
Btw, why are you still here?
Feat Wars is my term, so the best definition comes from me.
Feat Wars is an instance in debating where one party or more is using feats (Specifically, accomplishments and prestige- whether related or not) without substantiating the relevance nor giving similar or more credit to comparable feats by the opposing party.
In other words, it's "Anakin is the Chosen One, he blew up a droid ship at age ten, he beat count Dooku, fought in the Clone Wars, lasted twenty seconds with Dooku, wined and dined Padme, and wore brown! He can pwn Ludo Kressh!" a thousand times over again.
A- Why does Anakin win?
B- *Laundry list of feats, including how tall the guy was, etc.*
A- Okay. *Dissects them all. Most don't even make sense and the rest don't even compare on further scrunity*
B- Oh yeah? *Argue semantics. Look up Ten Fanboy Commandments for future debating help*
That's it in a nutshell. I'm sure you've seen it before... Like, every time you type.
Originally posted by zod360
Listen dude, I am in no way a fan of anything post ROTJ. I have said many times that my favorite time preiods are KOTOR and KOTOR2, the PT times and Darth Bane's times. I am also quite interested in the comics about Kun, Sunrider and Quel-Droma. And Ragnos and Sadow did not have to neccesarily be that strong in the force to create those artifacts, and it is more likely to assume that they were great alchemists because of those artifacts. And to add to your second point, it was not because of the fact that Ragnos had once been so strong in the force that it took the force power of dozens of planets, but because the revival of ANYONE is a very complex thing and Tavion was not particularly strong in the force herself.
Reading Wikipedia, states Ragnos was a champion warrior and posseses surpassing knowledge in the dark side of the force. However, that didn't seem to be the case, for Nadd, the Sith Magic could easily do it, and Ragnos who possesed such knowledge, could have done the very same thing, the most probably reasoning is that Ragnos required a huge amount of force power.
Ragnos is never described as a alchemist, the best known alchemist is Lord Simus, adding to the fact, that amulets that Kun used, which almost destroyed him, were common amongst the Sith, Sadow Kressh and Ragnos are the most powerful of the most powerful, with Ragnos as the best.
Like i said, to feeed a 10 year old like you, you need endless amounts of feats, and not common logic, learn to understand that feats do not mean everything.
Indeed, but you absoletely need, concrete evidence to decide something, its as though seeing is believing, so by saying feats, i meant feats that depict someone destroyed something or controlling and etc.
Might i ask why you think Ragnos is as weak as you perceive? Honestly diplomacy and friendship was non existent within the Ancient Sith, in every aspect the Sith are the complete counterpart of the Jedi.
The Ancient Sith respected pure power and brute strength, they see the strongest should rule, and in the own interests, when they can they immediately overthrow the current Dark Lord, Ragnos, living in a time period of Star throwings and superb duelist, was able to keep rule until his dying breath.
At any point, Sadow and/or Kressh would've taken an oppurtunity to overthrow Ragnos, yet they recognised their powers weaker, with Simus, Sadow's Master and mentor, being curbstomped by Ragnos.
And for your long belief of Ragnos being only respected for intelligence and a political leader, that is utter bullshit, the Sith consider diplomacy trash, only Sidious recognised its true importance, however the Sith prior to him, thought of only power and strength, and that to them was the path to victory. Ragnos held no different view, he was described to have turned his enemies on others, including himself, as well as a champion warrior with a surpassing and frightening grasp on the Dark side.
By all that everyone knows and have said about Ragnos, he is the strongest of the most powerful force users ever. Its unlikely any Force User except for Nihilus has even the slightest chance against him.