Dooku would defeat the trio. Dooku pwns Obi-Wan in 5 seconds like he did in ROTS. Dooku pwns Grievous easily in 5 seconds like he did in the CW and he wasn't even trying his hardest then. Obi-Wan is better then Kit Fisto so Dooku pwns him. Face it the Count is better then all three. He could overcome all 3 with just the force.
Originally posted by Borbarad
It [b]is bullshit in terms of a VS thread because "oh...it might be his lucky day" scenarios don't apply and you don't have the same circumstances as seen in the films. In a versus fight Han Solo armed with a piece of metal and blind would never be able to kill Boba Fett.
Right…ok
LMAO. Show me were GL said that Dooku didn't receive the order not to kill Anakin. He doesn't say something like that. He just says that Dooku didn't know what Sidious was up to (letting Anakin kill Dooku) which was obvious. The other thing isn't contradicted. Period.
“...In this particular case the idea is that Palpatine is testing Anakin to see if he’s strong enough to become his apprentice and he doesn’t tell Dooku what he’s up to. Dooku thinks he's just going to fight him, but the whole thing is setup by the emperor to test Anakin’s strength and when Anakin is strong enough, which he proves to be by killing Dooku, then the emperor is ready to convert him over to the darkside to become his new apprentice.”
That’s not what Lucas said, all he said is that Dooku didn’t know what Palpatine was up to. Meaning, Dooku had no idea what was going on except that he was to fight and (presumably) kill them.
Notice how Lucas says Anakin prooved his strength by slaying Dooku. Not by defeating him in a lightsaber or force contest. Obviously Sidious wanted to test if he can turn Anakin to the Dark Side (will Anakin give into his anger, instead of following the Jedi rules) and not if Anakin is strong enough to defeat Dooku.
How else is he supposed to beat Dooku? lol play a game of chess? He beat Dooku ina saber duel, Lucas says: “but the whole thing is setup by the emperor to test Anakin’s strength and when Anakin is strong enough, which he proves to be by killing Dooku, then the emperor is ready to convert him over to the darkside to become his new apprentice.” He proves to be strong enough, because he kills Dooku. That’s all that needs to be said, Anakin is strong enough to defeat Dooku, that’s what Palpatine was attempting to discern and it happened. And...you contradicted yourself:
“Notice how Lucas says Anakin prooved his strength by slaying Dooku” So Anakin proved his strength by defeating Dooku. Then you said “and not if Anakin is strong enough to defeat Dooku” So…Anakin proved his strength by defeating Dooku, which is what Lucas said Palpatine was trying to discern. And yet….his purpose was, for some reason, not that? Where does Lucas say that his intention was to see if Anakin would use the darkside? As I recall all he says is: “…but the whole thing is setup by the emperor to test Anakin’s strength and when Anakin is strong enough, which he proves to be by killing Dooku, then the emperor is ready to convert him…”. So, effectively what your saying is; The test was to see if Anakin was strong enough to be turned, how? by seeing if he could defeat Dooku. Which he did. Yet (according to you) this was not the case, and Anakin, in fact, did not prove his strength by killing Dooku, even though thats exactly what Lucas said he did...interesting...
And common sense ? Anakin lost to Obi-Wan who got pwned by Dooku but Anakin is the better duellist ? Yeah, right. Maybe Anakin had his lucky day, maybe Dooku catched a bad day. Doesn't matter. See above.
A>B>C arguments are stupid man. Just cause Obi loses to Dooku, and since Anakin defeated Dooku, does not mean Anakin should beat Obi-Wan (even though he should)
Wake up. The statement from the novel that Dooku received order not to kill Anakin is not contradicted by the movies or GL's word. In fact the movie shows Dooku using a different style and it shows Dooku taunting Anakin to use the Dark Side which he wouldn't have done if he wanted to defeat Anakin.
Styles don’t exist in the movies alone unfortunately. PROVE (other then opinionated observation) that Dooku started to use another form. You cant, not unless its stated specifically in the ROTS novel that Dooku started to use another form.
Originally posted by ESB - 1138
Dooku would defeat the trio. Dooku pwns Obi-Wan in 5 seconds like he did in ROTS. Dooku pwns Grievous easily in 5 seconds like he did in the CW and he wasn't even trying his hardest then. Obi-Wan is better then Kit Fisto so Dooku pwns him. Face it the Count is better then all three. He could overcome all 3 with just the force.
Originally posted by Council#13
you're judging them all as if it's "Dooku runs the Gauntlet". He's NOT. They're attacking all at once. For the third time, Dooku himself stated in LOE that he had difficulty defeating Grievous. In ROTS, Dooku knew he could not overcome Kenobi through saber skills alone and was forced to use the Force to toss him aside. Kit Fisto was considered one of the finest swordsmen by many (e.g. evidence: LOE, Cestus Deception, Wikipedia, ROTS novelization, starwars.com, Clone Wars comics and cartoon, etc.)
Okay, im gonna go over this again because i like to say it. In ROTS novelization it says that Dooku got exhausted by Anakin's powerful Djem So smashes. According to Cestus Deception, Shii Cho, like Djem So, is very aggressive and also uses lots of power. Dooku who had trouble with Grievous would be tired by Kit's smashes and would not have time to toss Kenobi aside as he did in ROTS movie
He knew he couldn't overcome Obiwan? Where are you getting this exactly? He had absolutely no trouble with Obiwan. You're assuming because he used the force that he was no match for Obiwan in saber combat? That's a terribly argument and it's false. Kit is a tool compared to Dooku and Dooku is a walking accident. You think Grievous can put up a fight when Obiwan had no problems with him? Let's be serious here, Dooku curbstomps the three.
I agree, Dooku would WTFpwn Kit, with ease. And Kenobi isn't much of a challenge either, GG is a bit tougher (as Dooku stated in LOE he would have trouble defeating GG) but Dooku would still win.
However, though Dooku could defeat them all individually, I'm skeptical that he could take all three at the same time.
Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
“...In this particular case the idea is that Palpatine is testing Anakin to see if he’s strong enough to become his apprentice and he doesn’t tell Dooku what he’s up to. Dooku thinks he's just going to fight him, but the whole thing is setup by the emperor to test Anakin’s strength and when Anakin is strong enough, which he proves to be by killing Dooku, then the emperor is ready to convert him over to the darkside to become his new apprentice.”That’s not what Lucas said, all he said is that Dooku didn’t know what Palpatine was up to. Meaning, Dooku had no idea what was going on except that he was to fight and (presumably) kill them.
Lucas didn't contradict the idea that Dooku didn't gave Anakin all he could nor did he contradict the idea that Dooku know that Sidious wanted to have Anakin over to the Dark Side.
In fact I don't see why Dooku should have taunted Anakin to use his "darker" feelings (making him stronger) if all he wanted was to kill Anakin - especially when I have watched the CW Cartoons in which Sidious and Dooku are discussing to convert Anakin.
How else is he supposed to beat Dooku? lol play a game of chess? He beat Dooku ina saber duel, Lucas says: “but the whole thing is setup by the emperor to test Anakin’s strength and when Anakin is strong enough, which he proves to be by killing Dooku, then the emperor is ready to convert him over to the darkside to become his new apprentice.” He proves to be strong enough, because he kills Dooku. That’s all that needs to be said, Anakin is strong enough to defeat Dooku, that’s what Palpatine was attempting to discern and it happened.
The point is that Dooku outright dominated Obi-Wan and Anakin until the point where he taunts Anakin to use his anger. So probably Dooku got surprised by the strength Anakin gained by using his darker feelings. The point is: This won't happen in a normal situation because you would either have Anakin lightside (Dooku schools him) or Anakin Dark Side and that leads me to the next point:
A>B>C arguments are stupid man. Just cause Obi loses to Dooku, and since Anakin defeated Dooku, does not mean Anakin should beat Obi-Wan (even though he should)
Yeah. That's the entire point. We see Dooku tooling both in seconds in AotC. We see him removing Obi-Wan from the fight while kicking Anakin in arround in ROTS. Dooku is - by far - superior to Obi-Wan in terms of lightsaber combat.
And we know Anakin (even Dark Side - so the stronger version) is on par with Obi-Wan. So please tell me how Anakin should be stronger than Dooku. It's nonsense. He defeated Dooku either because he was suprising him by unleashing his anger or because Dooku didn't try all he could to defeat Anakin. And that's what the ROTS novels suggests (not contradicted by the movie or Lucas comments).
Styles don’t exist in the movies alone unfortunately. PROVE (other then opinionated observation) that Dooku started to use another form. You cant, not unless its stated specifically in the ROTS novel that Dooku started to use another form.
It's stated in the ROTS novel that Dooku went into the fight with Sidious command to lose to Anakin. And that leaves the suggestion that Sidious wanted to test if Anakin is willing to give his own feelings the priority over the rules of the Jedi - which he did by killing Dooku.
In fact the entire situation was constructed in a way that Anakin had to win because otherwise Sidious wouldn't have been able to return to Coruscant. So he must have told Dooku to lose to Anakin if he wasn't sure if Anakin could do that.
Yes, but everyone seems to be forgetting something...Jedi/Sith can read others thoughts and/or feelings right? (bury you feelings deep down Luke..." and "Your thought betray you, you feelings for them are strong."😉 As also was obvious when Dooku said, "you have hate, you have anger..." BUT what people are forgetting is that he also said, "but you don't use them." So by his own admission he could feel or sense that Anakin WAS NOT using those emotions. I mean no one is gonna be happy during a fight, even Jedi. Mace had a evil ass grimace on his face when fighting Sids, so don't say, "look at Anakin's face..he was pissed.' cause Mace was mad too. So yea he was mad and didn't like Dooku, but he didn't give in until he cut his head off.
And to quote Sorgo from another thread, "If you're not trying to kill someone in a fight, you're holding back." But then in the same thread he said, "Why would he hold back if you're trying to test someone? You have to make sure they can compare to the Sith to become one."
Now those AREN'T EXACT quotes, mainly due to the fact that those are involving different characters, but the theory works the same. Those two quotes contradict each other, but are both true...but only ONE can be true per fight...so which was it?
Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Yes, but everyone seems to be forgetting something...Jedi/Sith can read others thoughts and/or feelings right? (bury you feelings deep down Luke..." and "Your thought betray you, you feelings for them are strong."😉 As also was obvious when Dooku said, "you have hate, you have anger..." BUT what people are forgetting is that he also said, "but you don't use them." So by his own admission he could feel or sense that Anakin WAS NOT using those emotions. I mean no one is gonna be happy during a fight, even Jedi. Mace had a evil ass grimace on his face when fighting Sids, so don't say, "look at Anakin's face..he was pissed.' cause Mace was mad too. So yea he was mad and didn't like Dooku, but he didn't give in until he cut his head off.
This must be a joke. Yes...Anakin didn't use his emotions at that point but Dooku basically tried to make him do it. The same way Luke in ROTJ tried to convince Vader to stop the fight (by mentioning the emotional conflict he could sense in his father).
And to quote Sorgo from another thread, "If you're not trying to kill someone in a fight, you're holding back." But then in the same thread he said, "Why would he hold back if you're trying to test someone? You have to make sure they can compare to the Sith to become one."
Now those AREN'T EXACT quotes, mainly due to the fact that those are involving different characters, but the theory works the same. Those two quotes contradict each other, but are both true...but only ONE can be true per fight...so which was it?
How often does Sidious tell Anakin that he will once be a great Jedi or the greatest Jedi ? He obviously knew how strong Anakin was before that little "test". So does it make sense to test Anakin's strength (in terms of lightsaber skills and force abilities) there ? No.
What Sidious didn't know was if he would be able to make Anakin forget about the rules of the Jedi and instead use / follow his darker feelings. And by making Anakin kill Dooku he knew that this can be done. Do you think Sidious would have liked an apprentice who wouldn't use the Dark Side ? 😉
No I understand that, but my question still wasn't answered as far as the holding back/test point. I know that he told Anakin that he saw him becoming the greatest jedi of all, but he also told him he could stop people from dying, he also told him he could only save Padme by joining the Dark Side, when THAT'S what killed her. He also told Anakin that the Jedi are plotting to "take over". He's a liar. He told him things he knew Anakin wanted to hear. That was all part of trying to convert him.
So when GL said Sidious was testing Anakin to see if he was powerful enough, he was doing just that...testing his strength and ability to see, not if he was strong, but if he was strong enough to replace Dooku, which he wouldn't be able to ascertain if he told Dooku to hold back. He would stand to gain nothing from doing that.
He knew that Anakin would abandon the Jedi rules already, due to what he told him about his little Tusken adventure. But he knew that the ONLY way to get Anakin to fully turn was to threaten, maybe not directly, the wellbeing of the one he cares most about...Padme. He was drawing on his(Anakin's) revenge factor for his mother's death, reminding him of that, and planting the seed that it could very well happen to Padme one day. He knows that Anakin was strong, yes, but he doesn't know HOW strong. As far as Sidious is considered, Tyrannus is the baddest thing next to him. Knowing of Dooku's immense power as a Jedi, coupled with the sheer arrogance of the Sith, he figured that if anyone was to be a measuring stick, it would be Dooku.
Originally posted by tdtd
He knew he couldn't overcome Obiwan? Where are you getting this exactly? He had absolutely no trouble with Obiwan. You're assuming because he used the force that he was no match for Obiwan in saber combat? That's a terribly argument and it's false. Kit is a tool compared to Dooku and Dooku is a walking accident. You think Grievous can put up a fight when Obiwan had no problems with him? Let's be serious here, Dooku curbstomps the three.
1. why else wouldnt Dooku have just sliced Obi-Wan's head off if not for the fact that he could not defeat him through saber alone?
2. Check your spelling. thats a "terribly" argument? Terrible is the word
3. I dont understand what you mean by the Kit=tool and Dooku=walking accident.
4. Did u even read what i had said? I stated that in LOE Dooku admitted he had had some trouble dealing with Grievous. Not only that, but in the Clone Wars he was being driven back madly. Also, those "Dooku can easily tool Obi because Obi had no trouble with Grievous" remarks dont count for squat. Mace had beaten Sidious (fair and square, check starwars.com, the most reliable source), but Yoda had beaten Mace, but Sidious has beaten Yoda. You see? It's a complete circle.
Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
I agree, Dooku would WTFpwn Kit, with ease. And Kenobi isn't much of a challenge either, GG is a bit tougher (as Dooku stated in LOE he would have trouble defeating GG) but Dooku would still win.However, though Dooku could defeat them all individually, I'm skeptical that he could take all three at the same time.
I see what you all are saying too, but I think the main reason he didn't kill OB1 is because OB1 was his apprentices' apprentice...so there was still a respect for Qui-Gon. He was more honest with OB1 in AOTC than ANY Sith should have been or ever has been. And he's the only one I know of who didn't go primarily by his Sith moniker, Darth Tyrannus. I don't know if that was because he wanted to hide his identity from the Trade Federation or what, but he still maintained Dooku. So even though he could kill OB1, think thats why he didn't.
And the same thing could be said for this trio too: Dooku beat OB1, Anakin beat Dooku, but OB1 obviously beat Anakin...so like Ive said before, it all depends on circumstance and the day. Anyone can win anytime. As its been proven.