antimoniter vs Marvel universe

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
You are providing on panel evidence but it does NOT conclusively support your interpretation. We have interpreted said evidence differently. You cannot treat your interpretation as fact, especially when your interpretation is NOT supported by recent sources.

The basis for your argument is your interpretation of the ambiguous issue 4 and the fact that the title remained "Spectre" after Hal got rid of the Wrath. That is soooo poor 😂

Especially when it was established that Hal had become a Spectre of a different nature having bypassed the Wrath and dealt with the Logos directly.

The Spectre of Vol 4 = Hal + a connection to the Logos

It does NOT = Hal+Logos

The Logos is an aspect of God. It is the Word of God. It is not a costumed superhero 😂

Originally posted by Juntai
It IS the logoz, given that it identifies itself as such in the first panel of page 14.

By your interpretation. Your interpretation is NOT fact. It is NOT stated outright and conclusively, therefore it would be arrogant for you to treat your interpretation as the gospel truth and disregard those of others.

Pg 14 the Logos does NOT identify itself as an idea in the Creators mind. The Wrath identifys itself as such and we know that is true from the origin revealed in Vol 3. The Wrath then says its form and appearance are dictated by the perceptions of the universe, how they think Gods justice should be enacted. It then commends Hal for being able to see past "the tyranny of mans projections" and see its true nature. The Wrath is one with the Logos it is empowered by the Logos and it is the Logos' agent in creation.

Hal having bypassed the Wrath and having his own mission of redemption in mind had no need of the Wrath and so dealt with the Logos directly. It is after all the power behind the Spectre and it was the LOgos that had Aztar transformed into the Wrath in the first place.

That interpretation keeps God as an infallible being as while the Wrath is connected to God it is NOt God and therefore it can make mistakes, it has its flaws as we saw in Days of Vengeance.

The Spectre is NOT the Logos. The Logos empowers the Spectre. Big difference.

Originally posted by Juntai
What recent sources is my interpretation not supported by?

Days of Vengeance. The Wrath is called the Spectre, the Wrath is a flawed and fallible being in said series. God is NOT. The Logos is God.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Days of Vengeance. The Wrath is called the Spectre, the Wrath is a flawed and fallible being in said series. God is NOT. The Logos is God.

Also, the Wrath made a deal with Neron, while Corrigan was trying to banish him. Once again showing the conflicting powers.

Originally posted by Juntai
The Wrath is there to test it's willpower against that of the host. Corrigan was never really able to control the Wrath well. Neither was Zauriel, when The Wrath entered his body in issue 3 volume 4. Without a host, the Wrath is in full control and just destroys, as seen in other comics as well, and I gave the issues for those already. As well it talks to the host. Even fights them sometimes, as what Corrigan did in issue 36 of volume 3.. The Wrath told Hal he could never have the full power of Spectre because it didn't trust him, also comics I gave the number for.The Logoz is power it kept when Hal outwilled the The Wrath's need to even exist for a great period of time. And so Hal earned the Logoz. Hal in that first arc and in the Legends of the DCU 33-36 that proceeded it, keeps mentioning of testing his willpower against The WRath, but is wollowing in the self doubt of what he did as Parallax. And the Wrath controlled him, just as it did Corrigan.

The Logoz itself told Hal it was finally free of The Wrath's tyranny, controlling it's power. Hal is the only person to have the willpower to defeat The Wrath in such a way. The ONLY one. And behind that, he found The Logoz, and thus, started guiding reality as a whole before the end of the series where he learned the full scope of his mission and powers.

The on panel evidence, is the picture I'm painting. I'm giving the quotes, issues, pages. And then even the times its supported in previous comics, and even in the whole previous volume, as well as afterwards. This is not a theory. Just what is told and shown on panel.. anything else is speculation.

I've feel I've probably even proved that you don't even own the issue in question as you're denying what is written on them, when the Logoz in one bubble says "Call me a thought in the creators mind" and then on the next panel identifies itself as the Logoz. lol.

The truth is, I own these comics in question, and they support their own evidence.

Originally posted by Juntai
The Wrath always goes nuts when it's in control[both full control, or when it asurps control from the host] of the Spectre, which has happened previously, and in multiples, all pointed out already. Gods anger is specifically told to us in Year One as going nuts and never recovering after Jesus' death. But this Wrath has been shown to us to be a wholly seperate being, even in issue 4, the one we keep mentioning.

So whats your point? Because Hal was connected to the Logos without the Wrath present and the fact that the title of the comic remained Spectre you quite naively use that as evidence for the Logos being the Spectre.

Thats ridiculous reasoning. The Logos empowers the Spectre. Hal was a Spectre of a different nature having bypassed the Wrath, and opting for a mission of redemption had no need for it. Hal was empowered and guided by the Logos, that doesnt equate to the Logos being the Spectre.😂

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
So whats your point? Because Hal was connected to the Logos without the Wrath present and the fact that the title of the comic remained Spectre you quite naively use that as evidence for the Logos being the Spectre.

Thats ridiculous reasoning. The Logos empowers the Spectre. Hal was a Spectre of a different nature having bypassed the Wrath, and opting for a mission of redemption had no need for it. Hal was empowered and guided by the Logos, that doesnt equate to the Logos being the Spectre.😂

Do you believe that the Spectre is the Logos? What do you think the Wrath is?

Short anwers please.

There's simply too much evidence proving my theory, and nothing to support yours. That's what it comes down to.

When Spectre is hostless and The Wrath is in control, or when The Wrath controls ANY being, or even exists as it's own entity. It just destroys.

Without The Wrath, Hal was attached directly to the Logoz, and then used it's power to guide creation.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Do you believe that the Spectre is the Logos? What do you think the Wrath is?

Short anwers please.

jun, i hereby dub thee the NEW whirlysplat!!

😄

Originally posted by Juntai
Throughout the comic series it describes Hal as BONDED to the Spectre/Logoz, "Me and creator", and his direct connection to God. And that is what The Spectre was, without The Wrath.

Dont say it says Hal is bonded to the Spectre/Logos because it doesnt. Thats your interpretation of scene 4 talking and dictating how you went on to interpret the rest of Volume 4.

It says Hal is bonded to the Logos, he has a connection to the Logos (directly after having dismissed the Wrath with its penchant for vengeance in favour of his mission of redemption)

The Spectre is Hal with a CONNECTION to the Logos. It is NOT Hal and the sum total of the Logos equals the Spectre. God merely empowers Hal in his role as the Spectre.

Your own post and its quote also confirms what ive been telling you. The Logos IS God. It isnt just a part of him. Its one of his faces, a personality. With that in mind youre interpretation paints god as a superhero. Do you see why we're finding it a bit ridiculous? 😂

What recent sources is my interpretation not supported by?

Anyhow, you debate is quite ridiculous. Juntai has an adequate amount of evidence to support his theory. Of course it is virtually impossible to say it for sure, but there's a principle stating that if you have two options it is worthwhile to believe the one with more evidence and authority. And given that theory, Juntai wins.

Originally posted by Juntai

When Spectre is hostless and The Wrath is in control, or when The Wrath controls ANY being, or even exists as it's own entity. It just destroys.

Without The Wrath, Hal was attached directly to the Logoz, and then used it's power to guide creation.

Noones denying that but Hal being connected to the Logos doesnt equate to the Logos being the Spectre. The Logos is God.

Also what are you trying to say about the Wrath, tell me your thoughts on what the Wrath is just so im clear on what youre arguing here.

I have a question Juntai. You say Spectre is God attached to a soul. Is there someone higher than him?

Edit: Nevermind. I saw your edit.

Originally posted by Tshern
The latest Spider-man published in Finland?

Anyhow, you debate is quite ridiculous. Juntai has an adequate amount of evidence to support his theory. Of course it is virtually impossible to say it for sure, but there's a principle stating that if you have two options it is worthwhile to believe the one with more evidence and authority. And given that theory, Juntai wins.

Have you actually read through the thread or have you just seen Jun posting loads of quotes and saying they support him? 😉

Jun is saying that the Spectre IS literally God.

Im saying the Spectre is empowered by God.

Juntai doesnt have any evidence which conclusively supports him. He has provided a few quotes which me and Kevdude have both interpreted the same way which you've guessed it is different to Juntai.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Dont say it says Hal is bonded to the Spectre/Logos because it doesnt. Thats your interpretation of scene 4 talking and dictating how you went on to interpret the rest of Volume 4.

It says Hal is bonded to the Logos, he has a connection to the Logos (directly after having dismissed the Wrath with its penchant for vengeance in favour of his mission of redemption)

The Spectre is Hal with a CONNECTION to the Logos. It is NOT Hal and the sum total of the Logos equals the Spectre. God merely empowers Hal in his role as the Spectre.

Your own post and its quote also confirms what ive been telling you. The Logos IS God. It isnt just a part of him. Its one of his faces, a personality. With that in mind youre interpretation paints god as a superhero. Do you see why we're finding it a bit ridiculous? 😂

Originally posted by Juntai
The Wrath is the embodiment of anger. It has fully been represented as it's own being even outside of Spectre entirely. It is how people percieve a specific job the Logoz does. It has been this way since humans killed the son of God.
The Spectre is Logoz attached to a soul.
The Logoz is a piece of God. A thought in the creators mind. A physical manifestation of it's will.
The host is a human soul.

The Logos is not a creation of God. The Logos IS God. The Logos is the Word, its an aspect of God.

The Spectre is NOT the Logos attached to a soul. The Spectre of Vol 4 was a soul connected to the Logos. Past Spectres before havent been like that and the Wrath on its own was referred to as Spectre in Days Of Vengeance.

The Wrath is a piece of God. It is Aztar transformed into the embodiment of Gods Wrath by the Logos as we actually saw and as stated in Vol 3. In issue 4 vol 4 the Wrath said its form was dictated by the universe and Hal saw beyond the Wrath and found out the true nature of the Spectre. It is an agent of the Logos and it is the Logos that empowers it.

Originally posted by jrodslam
I have a question Juntai. You say Spectre is God attached to a soul. Is there someone higher than him?

Edit: Nevermind. I saw your edit.

Originally posted by Juntai
If you read the comics, it wouldn't be rediculous, by the end of the series, by learning to understand the power and accept God, he could do literally anything. He was controlling all destinies, all histories, all realities, leading every soul in all of creation. Both appearing individually inside of the planes on every planet to every soul that needed him, while existing without it. It is a human soul, with the scope of a human, attached to a powerset that is infinite. That is what you don't understand. The host, be it Wrath or human, is the only limit for Spectre's power. It IS what is shown.

God is NOT a superhero. Hal as the Spectre had a connection with the Logos and it guided him. He was its agent and it empowered him. Thats different to theLogos being the Spectre.