lol yeah but at least there cosmic beings not some chick on a spit ball planet that suddenly snaps her fingers and cosmics get scared thats really weak way of getting ratings i mean ok magneto opening worm holes thats understandable that is part of electro magneticm and now that he's a energy being well i dont even know what he can do but even then its not as bad as wanda's transformation into what she is now.
Originally posted by Mider
lol yeah but at least there cosmic beings not some chick on a spit ball planet that suddenly snaps her fingers and cosmics get scared thats really weak way of getting ratings i mean ok magneto opening worm holes thats understandable that is part of electro magneticm and now that he's a energy being well i dont even know what he can do but even then its not as bad as wanda's transformation into what she is now.
That was so stupid.
I honestly think that every time a writer gets to do a character, they immediately go for the biggest thing they can do. Instead of something beleivable and quality. They all want to be writing Silver Frigging Surfer.
That Wanda, superpowerful, destroy the multiverse thing is pure garbage.
Good job Gs u sticked to ur guns and what the relationship between the Spectre and The Logoz really IS... 👆
The Wrath and Spectre are the same being Juntai 🙂. Hal threw off The Spectre/wrath and talked to The Logoz who commands The Wrath. Spectre Prime is not the Wrath/Spectre, it is Hal connected to The Logoz who has intercepted The Spectres powers and is using them for Redemption other then Vengeance. The beings that call Hal Spectre Prime are smaller parts of Hal working across the universe. In 1 of the earlier books in Volume 4 I believe shows Hal fighting with The Spectre and pushed him into a place where The Wrath of God (Aztar/Spectre) was having vengeance taken out on him by other beings who he casted vengeance on in the first place.
When Lucifer was talking to Hal in issue 1 he asked him why he was still acting like a animal going around taking vengeance on ppl when The Wrath/Spectre was out of him (because of Parallax). Anyway what I'm getting at here is that in Rebirth The Wrath/Spectre was demanding for Hal to switch to vengeance so he could take out Parallax, once Hal did switch to vengeance finally The Spectre took care of Parallax quickly, then left because God was calling him home. All of this and more is info you I don't think haven't taken into consideration... Yah sure Hal was able for some time to take control The Spectre and make him do what he wanted, or just ignore him and take control of the Spectres powers. But it didn't last, The Spectre kept up with his demands for vengeance and slowly wore Hal down to the point he could regain control..
The Spectre is not God, The Spectre can be killed, but it would take a really brutal fight and ALOT of magic being used to begin to hurt The Spectre.. When he fought Captain Marvel who was juiced up he was on The Spectres power level. The Spectre himself even said he was amazed at how much power CM had and he almost died fighting him... But give Spectre props, he had been fighting powerful beings way before fighting CM...
The Logoz told Hal that it is what The Spectre truly is beneath the mask of The Wrath. Hal saw past the Wrath and found it's true being.
The Spectre/Logoz identified ITSELF as the Logoz. Even so much as to say "I have not changed Hal -- you have! For at last you believe to the core of your being that there is hope... for yourself and the children of Earth. And in believing you have freed me from the tyranny of man's projections."
Hal: "This is your true face?"
"As best you can percieve it."
It identifies the Logoz as the true face of the Spectre. What it really is. Even refers to itself as 'me' and 'I' which are complete concepts in and of themselves.
The relationship between Host and God is reasserted MULTIPLE times through the series, "when the masks are torn away, it's just me and the creator."
It is an aspect of God, this is reasserted through hundreds of issues involving Spectre. He IS Gods Wrath, but the Wrath is just a perception of what it really is.. as seen above.
None of that can be disputed it IS what is written in the comics.
The problem with what GS is arguing, is that what I'm posting is actually written on panel inside of the comics, his is full of theories and extrapolation, speculation and outright falsities that has never been showed to us on panel.
I've had a real bad day at work, so I'll continue this another time, and I'm really tired of going in circles with this anyways.
Originally posted by Juntai
The Logoz told Hal that it is what The Spectre truly is beneath the mask of The Wrath. Hal saw past the Wrath and found it's true being.The Spectre/Logoz identified ITSELF as the Logoz. Even so much as to say "I have not changed Hal -- you have! For at last you believe to the core of your being that there is hope... for yourself and the children of Earth. And in believing you have freed me from the tyranny of man's projections."
Hal: "This is your true face?"
"As best you can percieve it."
It identifies the Logoz as the true face of the Spectre. What it really is. Even refers to itself as 'me' and 'I' which are complete concepts in and of themselves.
The relationship between Host and God is reasserted MULTIPLE times through the series, "when the masks are torn away, it's just me and the creator."
It is an aspect of God, this is reasserted through hundreds of issues involving Spectre. He IS Gods Wrath, but the Wrath is just a perception of what it really is.. as seen above.
None of that can be disputed it IS what is written in the comics.
The problem with what GS is arguing, is that what I'm posting is actually written on panel inside of the comics, his is full of theories and extrapolation, speculation and outright falsities that has never been showed to us on panel.
I've had a real bad day at work, so I'll continue this another time, and I'm really tired of going in circles with this anyways.
What you dont seem to understand Juntai is that scene in #4 of Volume 4 is open to interpretation. What youre doing is taking your interpretation and trying to present it as fact. You cannot do that when your opinion has not been conclusively verified anywhere. Your interpretation paints God as a flawed being. You can tell me a million times that the Spectre is just the universes perception of the Logos as if that excuses what the Wrath did but it doesnt. The Wrath was out of control after being manipulated and God had to intervene to deal with him. If the Spectre Force was the Logos then the Logos and therefore God would be fallible.
Not once does the Logos identify itself as an idea in Gods mind. The Wrath does so, it is the Wrath talking. The Logos is God. The Wrath is revealing its true nature, that it is an agent of God shaped by the perceptions of the universe but beneath the "veil" that it is lies the Logos. The Logos is the power behind the Spectre. We then saw this illustrated throughout Vol 4 with Hal having bypassed the Wrath, changing the mission of the Spectre to redemption and utilising the power bestowed on him by the Logos to do so.
Its all down to interpretation Juntai. You may be presenting on panel evidence, however youre also presenting your interpretation of said evidence which i others dont agree with and are free to dismiss as said evidence is ambiguous. Mine and Kevdudes interpretations are not contracdicted by Vol 3, or Vol 4 and fit in perfectly with what happened in Days Of Vengeance. Your interpretation in light of Days of Vengeance translates to God being a flawed and far from perfect being. ❌
Originally posted by kevdude
Good job Gs u sticked to ur guns and what the relationship between the Spectre and The Logoz really IS... 👆
Thanks Kev. 😉
Originally posted by kevdude
The Wrath and Spectre are the same being Juntai 🙂. Hal threw off The Spectre/wrath and talked to The Logoz who commands The Wrath. Spectre Prime is not the Wrath/Spectre, it is Hal connected to The Logoz who has intercepted The Spectres powers and is using them for Redemption other then Vengeance. The beings that call Hal Spectre Prime are smaller parts of Hal working across the universe. In 1 of the earlier books in Volume 4 I believe shows Hal fighting with The Spectre and pushed him into a place where The Wrath of God (Aztar/Spectre) was having vengeance taken out on him by other beings who he casted vengeance on in the first place.When Lucifer was talking to Hal in issue 1 he asked him why he was still acting like a animal going around taking vengeance on ppl when The Wrath/Spectre was out of him (because of Parallax). Anyway what I'm getting at here is that in Rebirth The Wrath/Spectre was demanding for Hal to switch to vengeance so he could take out Parallax, once Hal did switch to vengeance finally The Spectre took care of Parallax quickly, then left because God was calling him home. All of this and more is info you I don't think haven't taken into consideration... Yah sure Hal was able for some time to take control The Spectre and make him do what he wanted, or just ignore him and take control of the Spectres powers. But it didn't last, The Spectre kept up with his demands for vengeance and slowly wore Hal down to the point he could regain control..
The Spectre is not God, The Spectre can be killed, but it would take a really brutal fight and ALOT of magic being used to begin to hurt The Spectre.. When he fought Captain Marvel who was juiced up he was on The Spectres power level. The Spectre himself even said he was amazed at how much power CM had and he almost died fighting him... But give Spectre props, he had been fighting powerful beings way before fighting CM...
I couldnt agree more. The Logos empowers the Spectre, it most certainly does NOT equate to the Spectre.
Originally posted by GalacticStormNo, The Logoz identifies itself as a thought in Gods mind in issue 4. Do you have the issue in question?
What you dont seem to understand Juntai is that scene in #4 of Volume 4 is open to interpretation. What youre doing is taking your interpretation and trying to present it as fact. You cannot do that when your opinion has not been conclusively verified anywhere. Your interpretation paints God as a flawed being. You can tell me a million times that the Spectre is just the universes perception of the Logos as if that excuses what the Wrath did but it doesnt. The Wrath was out of control after being manipulated and God had to intervene to deal with him. If the Spectre Force was the Logos then the Logos and therefore God would be fallible.Not once does the Logos identify itself as an idea in Gods mind. The Wrath does so, it is the Wrath talking. The Logos is God. The Wrath is revealing its true nature, that it is an agent of God shaped by the perceptions of the universe but beneath the "veil" that it is lies the Logos. The Logos is the power behind the Spectre. We then saw this illustrated throughout Vol 4 with Hal having bypassed the Wrath, changing the mission of the Spectre to redemption and utilising the power bestowed on him by the Logos to do so.
Its all down to interpretation Juntai. You may be presenting on panel evidence, however youre also presenting your interpretation of said evidence which i others dont agree with and are free to dismiss as said evidence is ambiguous. Mine and Kevdudes interpretations are not contracdicted by Vol 3, or Vol 4 and fit in perfectly with what happened in Days Of Vengeance. Your interpretation in light of Days of Vengeance translates to God being a flawed and far from perfect being. ❌
The Wrath perception having control over the power used explains perfectly what happened in Day of Vengence. Without a host to judge for it, it just destroys. Just as shown in Spectre Year One, and also in Underworld Unleashed Spectre tie in issues, 35 and 36, where Corrigan is not with Spectre because of a deal The Wrath made with Neron.
This is what I'm talking about the difference is.
I own these comics. You're speculating about them.
The Spectre is a trio of characters.
It is the Logoz.
The Wrath of God.
and a host soul all wrapped in one.
Normally, The Wrath is in control when it needs to be. It destroys and destroys and kills, and it has the ability to complish pretty much anything.
Then there's the host, who is a human soul. The Wrath has been known to limit the host in power[as seen in Legends of the DCU 33-36, The Wrath itself tells Hal he is undeserving of power given what he's done.], and outright take over the Spectre's entire form when it outwills the host.
The Logoz is the power, and what's behind the mask. Hal was only able to do this because his willpower was enough to completely dominate The Wrath for very extended periods of time.
Originally posted by Juntai
No, The Logoz identifies itself as a thought in Gods mind in issue 4. Do you have the issue in question?The Wrath perception having control over the power used explains perfectly what happened in Day of Vengence. Without a host to judge for it, it just destroys. Just as shown in Spectre Year One, and also in Underworld Unleashed Spectre tie in issues, 35 and 36, where Corrigan is not with Spectre because of a deal The Wrath made with Neron.
This is what I'm talking about the difference is.
I own these comics. You're speculating about them.
I have the issue in question and no the Logos does NOT identify as a thought in Gods mind. The Wrath does, it is the Wrath talking and in said issue it reveals its true nature to Hal. It is an agent of God, shaped by the universes perceptions, but push past this veil and you will find the power behind it, the Logos.
It doesnt explain it perfectly at all Juntai because that still paints God as an imperfect being whose manifestation runs out of control if not tethered by a host. Not good enough J.
I have the issue. Me and Kev just interpret it differently to you. With our interpretation God remains infallible and the perfect being religion tells us he is. By your interpretation he is flawed. Theres no getting around it. ❌
Originally posted by GalacticStormThen explains the other times Spectre went on rampages that I mentioned? Not to mention it's rampage in issue 4 in Zauriels body, and all while Hal controlled Spectre's form?
I have the issue in question and no the Logos does NOT identify as a thought in Gods mind. The Wrath does, it is the Wrath talking and in said issue it reveals its true nature to Hal. It is an agent of God, shaped by the universes perceptions, but push past this veil and you will find the power behind it, the Logos.It doesnt explain it perfectly at all Juntai because that still paints God as an imperfect being whose manifestation runs out of control if not tethered by a host. Not good enough J.
I have the issue. Me and Kev just interpret it differently to you. With our interpretation God remains infallible and the perfect being religion tells us he is. By your interpretation he is flawed. Theres no getting around it. ❌
It fits perfectly.
On page 13 [the pages ARE numbered in this comic, btw. So if you do have it, you can flip to the page perfectly.] at the bottom of the page, the very last panel. The LOGOZ says "Call me an idea... in the creator's mind.. A part of Her will manifested to serve the Earthly plane... "
So I also knock that out of the park too.
Originally posted by Juntai
The Spectre is a trio of characters.It is the Logoz.
The Wrath of God.
and a host soul all wrapped in one.Normally, The Wrath is in control when it needs to be. It destroys and destroys and kills, and it has the ability to complish pretty much anything.
Then there's the host, who is a human soul. The Wrath has been known to limit the host in power[as seen in Legends of the DCU 33-36, The Wrath itself tells Hal he is undeserving of power given what he's done.], and outright take over the Spectre's entire form when it outwills the host.
The Logoz is the power, and what's behind the mask. Hal was only able to do this because his willpower was enough to completely dominate The Wrath for very extended periods of time.
The Logos is NOT a character that makes up the Spectre. The Logos IS God. It is the power source behind the Spectre. The title Spectre is the applied to the agent of God who carries out his will. Traditionally Spectre was the host bonded with the Wrath which gave the host a connection to God. In Vol 4 Hal bypassed the veil of the Wrath and saw the power behind it, the Logos. He then forged his own mission of redemption with no need for the Wrath and he dealt with the Logos directly. It guided him. He was a Spectre of a different nature to what we've seen before. Because of the way you've interpreted issue 4 and the fact that Hal was Spectre without the Wrath you've horribly interpreted the Logos as the Spectre. ❌
The Logos is the Word of God. It is God. A side of the same coin. It empowers the Spectre. It is NOT the Spectre.
Originally posted by GalacticStormAgain, all your theory, and not applicable given the on panel evidence of otherwise.
The Logos is NOT a character that makes up the Spectre. The Logos IS God. It is the power source behind the Spectre. The title Spectre is the applied to the agent of God who carries out his will. Traditionally Spectre was the host bonded with the Wrath which gave the host a connection to God. In Vol 4 Hal bypassed the veil of the Wrath and saw the power behind it, the Logos. He then forged his own mission of redemption with no need for the Wrath and he dealt with the Logos directly. It guided him. He was a Spectre of a different nature to what we've seen before. Because of the way you've interpreted issue 4 and the fact that Hal was Spectre without the Wrath you've horribly interpreted the Logos as the Spectre. ❌The Logos is the Word of God. It is God. A side of the same coin. It empowers the Spectre. It is NOT the Spectre.
Coming from a theology student, and being engaged to another theology student, I can back up what Galactic Storm is saying. Logos is the greek word for, well, the word. If they go from the same theological standpoint with the Spectre (which I know nothing about) as they would with Christian theology, and he is empowered by the word of God, then it makes sense. God speaks, and then the Spectre has power.
The Logoz told us it was FREED from the TYRANNY of The Wrath.
That Hal's willpower forced it into recetion.
When it was in recetion, he earned vast amounts of the power it kept from him. The Logoz.
Everything I said fits in perfectly.
The Wrath is it's own entity, and has existed and talked to the Host of Spectre, as well as existed outside of Spectre's form altogether. In Day of Vengence you see it choosing a different host out of the 3 on panel. In Underworld Unleashed, Corrigan has a fistfight with it.
Every time The Wrath is in control, or has no host, it just destroys. You've went and based your whole arguement around this appearance in DOV about him going nuts, as if it's not what he always does. [Given Year One and Underworld Unleashed Spectre issue tie ins and all times it seperate from Spectre's form, issue 3 and 4 of volume 4..]
Originally posted by Juntai
Then explains the other times Spectre went on rampages that I mentioned? Not to mention it's rampage in issue 4 in Zauriels body, and all while Hal controlled Spectre's form?It fits perfectly.
The Wrath is just the way the universes perceives the Spectre, its how they expect Gods justice to work. That is stated. Untethered to a host which provides the stability and judgement the Wrath acts out its role unrestrained as we've seen. Whats your point?
Originally posted by Juntai
On page 13 [the pages ARE numbered in this comic, btw. So if you do have it, you can flip to the page perfectly.] at the bottom of the page, the very last panel. The LOGOZ says "Call me an idea... in the creator's mind.. A part of Her will manifested to serve the Earthly plane... "
So I also knock that out of the park too.
Not in the slightest. We've already been through this. That was the Wrath talking at the bottom of page 13. The Wrath was an idea in the creators mind, it was Aztar that was transformed by the Logos, into being a manifestation of the Words will to act out its will on the physical plane as we saw in Vol 3 issue 60. Then the Wrath tells us that this form is merely the projections of the universe and that it is not its true nature, it describes itself as a veil adn beneath said veil is the Logos, its power source and the power it serves.
Having bypassed the Wrath Hal went on to deal directly with the Logos. The Logos is NOT the Spectre, it is the power behind the Spectre. The Logos is God, the Spectre is NOT. Your interpretation means he is. Thats horrible. 😉
Originally posted by GalacticStormIt IS the logoz, given that it identifies itself as such in the first panel of page 14.
The Wrath is just the way the universes perceives the Spectre, its how they expect Gods justice to work. That is stated. Untethered to a host which provides the stability and judgement the Wrath acts out its role unrestrained as we've seen. Whats your point?Not in the slightest. We've already been through this. That was the Wrath talking at the bottom of page 13. The Wrath was an idea in the creators mind, it was Aztar that was transformed by the Logos, into being a manifestation of the Words will to act out its will on the physical plane as we saw in Vol 3 issue 60. Then the Wrath tells us that this form is merely the projections of the universe and that it is not its true nature, it describes itself as a veil adn beneath said veil is the Logos, its power source and the power it serves.
Having bypassed the Wrath Hal went on to deal directly with the Logos. The Logos is NOT the Spectre, it is the power behind the Spectre. The Logos is God, the Spectre is NOT. Your interpretation means he is. Thats horrible. 😉
Originally posted by Juntai
Again, all your theory, and not applicable given the on panel evidence of otherwise.
You are providing on panel evidence but it does NOT conclusively support your interpretation. We have interpreted said evidence differently. You cannot treat your interpretation as fact, especially when your interpretation is NOT supported by recent sources.
The basis for your argument is your interpretation of the ambiguous issue 4 and the fact that the title remained "Spectre" after Hal got rid of the Wrath. That is soooo poor 😂
Especially when it was established that Hal had become a Spectre of a different nature having bypassed the Wrath and dealt with the Logos directly.
The Spectre of Vol 4 = Hal + a connection to the Logos
It does NOT = Hal+Logos
The Logos is an aspect of God. It is the Word of God. It is not a costumed superhero 😂
The Wrath is there to test it's willpower against that of the host. Corrigan was never really able to control the Wrath well. Neither was Zauriel, when The Wrath entered his body in issue 3 volume 4. Without a host, the Wrath is in full control and just destroys, as seen in other comics as well, and I gave the issues for those already. As well it talks to the host. Even fights them sometimes, as what Corrigan did in issue 36 of volume 3.. The Wrath told Hal he could never have the full power of Spectre because it didn't trust him, also comics I gave the number for.The Logoz is power it kept when Hal outwilled the The Wrath's need to even exist for a great period of time. And so Hal earned the Logoz. Hal in that first arc and in the Legends of the DCU 33-36 that proceeded it, keeps mentioning of testing his willpower against The WRath, but is wollowing in the self doubt of what he did as Parallax. And the Wrath controlled him, just as it did Corrigan.
The Logoz itself told Hal it was finally free of The Wrath's tyranny, controlling it's power. Hal is the only person to have the willpower to defeat The Wrath in such a way. The ONLY one. And behind that, he found The Logoz, and thus, started guiding reality as a whole before the end of the series where he learned the full scope of his mission and powers.
The on panel evidence, is the picture I'm painting. I'm giving the quotes, issues, pages. And then even the times its supported in previous comics, and even in the whole previous volume, as well as afterwards. This is not a theory. Just what is told and shown on panel.. anything else is speculation.
I've feel I've probably even proved that you don't even own the issue in question as you're denying what is written on them, when the Logoz in one bubble says "Call me a thought in the creators mind" and then on the next panel identifies itself as the Logoz. lol.
The truth is, I own these comics in question, and they support their own evidence.