antimoniter vs Marvel universe

I know about doomsday not evolving from his blast by his lonesome(i told mider that some time ago). I'm saying radiance an energy being who blasted him with energy he evolved from. But it didn't help him against Imperiex own energy blast which possibly indicates that he doesn't totally evolve from a specific attack but just partially to a degree. I'm well aware of Lex' contribution for Doomsday's revival and where he ended up (apokolips).

The thing with those universe destroying feats is the method of how he was able to do it. It was also hinted he did the same method which was to struck the lynchpin and several strategic sites causing a domino effect that destroyed the previous universe. OWAW was largely inconsistent too and Spectre had very little hand in something that was suppose to threaten the universe.

Originally posted by Mider
how is that possible if whole universes couldnt stop him i dont think that the DCU is weaker then the MU

If the cosmics never got involved during the destruction of said universes then that says it all. In the end regardless of all the power he had absorbed and all the universes he had destroyed, Spectre confronted and weakened him and then a few dozen heroes took him down. The few dozen cosmics here would annihilate him without a doubt.

Originally posted by Mider
and spectre losing to him is a big point in his corner since all those cosmics wouldnt hold a candle to spectre.

Debatable. Very debatable. Spectre has never been stated or shown to wield Gods full power as many wrongly assume. Spectre has failed on many occassions due to lack of power and it was shown in Genesis that he is less powerful than the Source the life force and origin point of Dc creation. I think you know where im going. 😉

Yeah, I don't really see the Anti-Monitor taking out the Marvel universe. Just wouldn't happen. Too many celestials and powerful galactic beings out there to really not care about the fate of their universe. I'm 100% sure that Galactus would get involved, considering that he kinda owes Reed Richards one right now.

Debatable. Very debatable. Spectre has never been stated or shown to wield Gods full power as many wrongly assume. Spectre has failed on many occassions due to lack of power and it was shown in Genesis that he is less powerful than the Source the life force and origin point of Dc creation. I think you know where im going.

Even Spectre aside DC's high end cosmics have roles to fill, and they do not often step beyond them for some reason. They know Supes will fix it, lol.

Could the Antimonitor absorb a universe that wasn't created by Krona's experiment? I think not. His great power over the Infinite Earths was in large part due to their common origin.

Originally posted by Laminator_X
Could the Antimonitor absorb a universe that wasn't created by Krona's experiment? I think not. His great power over the Infinite Earths was in large part due to their common origin.

Originally posted by Juntai
When the wielder of the Spectreforce steps beyond its bounds, the Logoz will cut him short on power, and he won't be able to accomplish it. That's not a matter of Spectre having too little power, it's a matter of the human soul being cut from it's powersource. When the Logoz is with him...

When it came to dealing with the Anti Monitor and fighting the embodiment of evil in "The last days of the Justice Society of America" back in the 80's Spectre was not acting out of bounds. It was straight up just a lack of power. Spectres performance in Crisis perfectly illustrates the point. Spectre cannot wield the full power of God. Until its actually stated on panel that he can then its wrong to assume so.

Originally posted by Juntai
Even Spectre aside DC's high end cosmics have roles to fill, and they do not often step beyond them for some reason. They know Supes will fix it, lol.

Marvels cosmics also have roles to fill, but they realise that the destruction of the universe would make their roles redundant so they often intervene. Stands to reason.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
When it came to dealing with the Anti Monitor and fighting the embodiment of evil in "The last days of the Justice Society of America" back in the 80's Spectre was not acting out of bounds. It was straight up just a lack of power. Spectres performance in Crisis perfectly illustrates the point. Spectre cannot wield the full power of God. Until its actually stated on panel that he can then its wrong to assume so.

Which leads us to the next thing...In the Post-crisis 80's Spectre was depowered by God. He wasn't powered back up until Ostrander's volume 3 in the mid-90s. Using that as your example doesn't prove much, he ran around in a little wizard group with Constantine. lol. Why did God depower him? For not stopping the Crisis himself. So it was within his power to do so, Corrigan ****ed up somewhere. The JSA series you spoke of was in what... 86-87, if I remember. The same time as depowered Spectre. 😉

And finally...Spectre can't wield the full power of God, because it's only one of Gods hands. Hal pretty much held the full power of the Logoz though right at the very end of his series. As he was guiding the past present and future of all realities, and leading all souls on he paths they needed to be led on. And was the face of God to all races across all planets. Most people wielding Spectre's power probably won't reach that level, as the Wrath or even The Logoz won't let him... but it is the peak of Spectre's power.

Originally posted by Juntai
With the Anti-Monitor, if you read what Dr Fate had said in the COIE, Anti-Monitor tied his essence to every being present there at the dawn of time, and all would die if Spectre outright killed him, which noone seemed to doubt he could do.

If it was within Spectres power then why did he require the mystical aid of a few dozen magic practitioners when dealing with the Anti-Monitor?

Originally posted by Juntai
Which leads us to the next thing...In the Post-crisis 80's Spectre was depowered by God. He wasn't powered back up until Ostrander's volume 3 in the mid-90s. Using that as your example doesn't prove much, he ran around in a little wizard group with Constantine. lol. Why did God depower him? For not stopping the Crisis himself. So it was within his power to do so, Corrigan ****ed up somewhere. The JSA series you spoke of was in what... 86-87, if I remember. The same time as depowered Spectre. 😉

I read that Spectre was depowered after being defeated by the embodiment of evil shortly after crisis as it marched on heaven. I'll have to check up on that. But fair enough for now i'll accept that and Spectres performance in Crisis as Corrigan f*cking up.

Originally posted by Juntai
And finally...Spectre can't wield the full power of God, because it's only one of Gods hands. Hal pretty much held the full power of the Logoz though right at the very end of his series. As he was guiding the past present and future of all realities, and leading all souls on he paths they needed to be led on. And was the face of God to all races across all planets. Most people wielding Spectre's power probably won't reach that level, as the Wrath or even The Logoz won't let him... but it is the peak of Spectre's power.

Well its quite clear that the Spectre doesnt have access to the full power of God. Im glad you have admitted that. I just dont like the argument that because he' slinked to God he can defeat anything which comes across his path if its within jurisdiction to do so. His depowerment showed that conclusively is NOT the case. Spectre with jurisdiction doesnt equate to God.

"If it was within Spectres power then why did he require the mystical aid of a few dozen magic practitioners when dealing with the Anti-Monitor?"
Beats me, dramatic writing?
Funny thing is, he wouldn't need to given the power, when it's proven he can take both the latent magic in the universe and use it, and also use people's magic power, even against their will.

I chalk Corrigan's mistakes up to the fact that he was an abused child and led a horrible life, and was a bad cop to boot.

I think he simply didn't have the scope someone with that much power should have. He was constantly using the power for personal gain or even going against gods wishes. And then would randomly pull the 'If God proposes [such and such] why should I do anything about it?" gimick. He was horribly inconstant personality wise. I rarely if ever recall him even leaving Earth for any reason, and never wanted to be pulled away from his pretended human life. [He continued to live a normal human policeman life.]

Either way, that's not current re-powered Spectre, who hasn't been shown as failing really in a very very long time.

On a side note, Hal fought who he saw as the embodiment of evil, and just created a new reality and trapped him in it, lol. Of course, he escaped later on, and was defeated again later, but yeah. Evil is a constant in the universe, just as good is, and probably shouldn't be able to be destroyed by Spectre anyways.

Next, regardless of how stupid it sounds given how often they intertwine their stories, Vertigo isn't considered a canon part of the DCU. It detailed it about a month or two ago on newsarama. I still consider it as such, given moments like in Sandman when that human tries to summon and trap a demon and ends up with Morpheus, so he puts the guy through an infinitude of nightmares worse than hell... that scene was actually ALSO seen in the early issues of the current Green Arrow series. Needless to say countless other moments like that. But, it does mean that the plotline with Spectre vs the embodiment of evil in Swamp Thing didn't actually happen, as per canon for DC by their word. But as I said... it sounds dumb to me and probably to everyone else too. lol.

Originally posted by Juntai
On a side note, Hal fought who he saw as the embodiment of evil, and just created a new reality and trapped him in it, lol. Of course, he escaped later on, and was defeated again later, but yeah. Evil is a constant in the universe, just as good is, and probably shouldn't be able to be destroyed by Spectre anyways.

Next, regardless of how stupid it sounds given how often they intertwine their stories, Vertigo isn't considered a canon part of the DCU. It detailed it about a month or two ago on newsarama. I still consider it as such, given moments like in Sandman when that human tries to summon and trap a demon and ends up with Morpheus, so he puts the guy through an infinitude of nightmares worse than hell... that scene was actually ALSO seen in the early issues of the current Green Arrow series. Needless to say countless other moments like that. But, it does mean that the plotline with Spectre vs the embodiment of evil in Swamp Thing didn't actually happen, as per canon for DC by their word. But as I said... it sounds dumb to me and probably to everyone else too. lol.

The embodiment of evil i was referring to is something Spectre fought in his Corrigan days so im not sure what you're talking about here. I know Vertigo isnt canon for DCU thats a point ive argued many a time here.

This Spectre diversion was started by myself in response to Miders comments about Spectre being able to take out any and all Marvel cosmics. Since you have now acknowledged that Spectre with jurisdiction doesnt equate to God, or unstoppable then it is a tangent i no longer need to go off on. Thanks for the discussion. 😉

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The embodiment of evil i was referring to is something Spectre fought in his Corrigan days so im not sure what you're talking about here. I know Vertigo isnt canon for DCU thats a point ive argued many a time here.

This Spectre diversion was started by myself in response to Miders comments about Spectre being able to take out any and all Marvel cosmics. Since you have now acknowledged that Spectre with jurisdiction doesnt equate to God, or unstoppable then it is a tangent i no longer need to go off on. Thanks for the discussion. 😉

And it's not god, but it's probably the next best thing. As seen, Spectre flipping out is stopped only by God himself. lol. Which was even the highest Lord of Order's ultimate plan at beating him, which even he saw as the only possible way.

Originally posted by Juntai
Right, but as I said, the embodiment of evil thing that happened in American Gothic isn't canon, as it didn't happen in DC, but in Vertigo in Swamp Thing.

And it's not god, but it's probably the next best thing. As seen, Spectre flipping out is stopped only by God himself. lol. Which was even the highest Lord of Order's ultimate plan at beating him, which even he saw as the only possible way.

An out of control Spectre has also been stopped by the brothers so thats not quite true. Regardless the notion that a Spectre with jurisdiction is unstoppable and equates to God is wrong and needs to be laid to rest. Im just glad that you agreed with me. 😉

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
An out of control Spectre has also been stopped by the brothers so thats not quite true. Regardless the notion that a Spectre with jurisdiction is unstoppable and equates to God is wrong and needs to be laid to rest. Im just glad that you agreed with me. 😉

Needless to say, Micheal nearly died in the Spectre series, guess who he ran to for help?

But, I do agree, he isn't god, just the next best thing.

Phoenix alone would take Anti-Monitor down. Maybe also Living Tribunal would take him down. The one with IG. THOTU easily.
Anyway, MU would stop him extremely easily.

Originally posted by Juntai
Corrigan was stopped by Micheal backing the wishes of The Word/Logoz. And suddenly Corrigan finds himself helpless? lol. Notice the problem there? I'm sure I don't even have to point that out. It's the same outcome. God and it's aspects shut him down and empowered Micheal. Lucifer that I can recall has never defeated Spectre. So it IS still quite true that it takes God to do it.

Needless to say, Micheal nearly died in the Spectre series, guess who he ran to for help?

But, I do agree, he isn't god, just the next best thing.

Why was Michael empowered? Just because he was following Gods will? 😕

A Spectre wth jurisdiction can and has been defeated. An out of control Spectre has been defeated by someone other than God.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Why was Michael empowered? Just because he was following Gods will? 😕

A Spectre wth jurisdiction can and has been defeated. An out of control Spectre has been defeated by someone other than God.

Spectre year 1, by Ostrander and Mandrake, going over Spectre's history with the priest on the dock where he died, describing Jesus' death and Spectre going nuts.

When was a Spectre judging been defeated?

Originally posted by Juntai
The Logoz/Word is the same source of power of Spectre, Micheal came obeying it's order. It's obvious who was going to win. Spectre suddenly didn't have the power to do anything. It's a rigged fight when Spectre's powers are off and Micheal is claiming he came in the name of that very power. lol. God wrote a law saying Spectre had no jurisdiction over the mortal plane without a host. It was written as law.
It was God vs Spectre again.

Spectre year 1, by Ostrander and Mandrake, going over Spectre's history with the priest on the dock where he died, describing Jesus' death and Spectre going nuts.

When was a Spectre judging been defeated?

Where is it stated that an out of control Spectre has his powers reduced by the Logoz? If the Logoz was willing to do that in the first place why not just completely turn off the power as opposed to recruiting someone to take on the unruly Spectre.

You got any scans to prove this fluctuating powered Spectre? Or is it just an assumption that when Spectre disobeys God his powers are reduced. Spectre failing and then having his powerset reduced after Crisis is something different.

Michael obeying the Word isnt suddenly empowered by the Word you have no evidence for that. An unruly Spectre got taken down by someone his master recruited for the task. Simple as.

A Spectre acting within his jurisdiction (Crisis) can and has failed to achieve his goals. He can be defeated.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Where is it stated that an out of control Spectre has his powers reduced by the Logoz? If the Logoz was willing to do that in the first place why not just completely turn off the power as opposed to recruiting someone to take on the unruly Spectre.

You got any scans to prove this fluctuating powered Spectre? Or is it just an assumption that when Spectre disobeys God his powers are reduced. Spectre failing and then having his powerset reduced after Crisis is something different.

Michael obeying the Word isnt suddenly empowered by the Word you have no evidence for that. An unruly Spectre got taken down by someone his master recruited for the task. Simple as.

A Spectre acting within his jurisdiction (Crisis) can and has failed to achieve his goals. He can be defeated.

The Logoz/Spectre is commonly known to commonly turn off powers when it's users try to step out of line. It's detailed multiples times in Legends of the DCU: Devourer of Worlds. Which is issues 33-36 of LoDCU series, which leaves off where issue 1 of Volume 4 picks up.

And yes, if God wants someone down, they're down, that's it.
Anything less would mean God is fallible, which is not an option.