Originally posted by IKC
And that's the most important part. You don't read or take into account another's points. That's why we stopped responding to you.
What the...? I do read, I do answer points other people make. I do take them into account. But really...it's getting annoying to enter a thread with post-ROTJ characters involved when 80 % of the people involved in the discussion either haven't read the post-ROTJ stuff, hate it or just start making rediculous claims (such as "the NJO people don't know lightsaber styles"😉.
What do you expect from me ? To accept point which totally contradict the source material that can only be thrown in by people who didn't read the sources ? Look at your own replies here regarding to topics involving Luke. All that I read is that what I've mentioned in my last post:
- Luke sucks in lightsaber combat (see ROTJ)
- Luke doesn't have any knowledge (see ROTJ)
- because Luke trained all people he can easily pwn them
- because Luke trained all people they all must suck because of...
And so on, and so on...You basically act as if Luke - with the exception of a few uber force feats that can't be used in combat - stayed the same untrained farmboy over a timeperiod of 30 years while on the same time the idea that people can become uber powerful in less than 5 years (basically all TOTJ characters) is accepted without questioning it. I call that double-standart.
Nai, likewise, never gives an inch
Nor do IKC, Illustrious and you. Instead when anything else fails you come up with impossible things like:
I'm just dying to see how Nai and others plan to substantiate just HOW much the 375 planets boosted Raynar's force powers, IF that can be substantiated.
Exact quantification of the amount of force powers a single person is wielding ? Of course that can't be done. Still we have DE Sidious as an example for a boost in force powers by using a similar technique - and he used only parts of one planets potential.
So can you please tell me why it's illogical to assume that if using a part of one planets potential give a force user a considerable boost in terms of force powers, a far greater amount of potential used would give another force user an equal / greater boost in terms of force powers ?
But instead of simply accepting this since there isn't much to put against that statement people come up with "Either you give me an exact number HOW much Raynar's power was boosted or you drop the entire point". What's that ? Giving an inch ? Great debating manners ? That's like saying "Because we can't exactly tell how much DE Sidious force power was boosted by using the people on Byss he's not stronger than he was in ROTS / ROTJ". Would you accept that statement ?
And this is how must points are threatened here. Just one excerpt from the "DN Luke runs the gauntlet" thread:
Me: "YV can't be affected by force attacks unless you have Vongsense."
X: "But they can be affected by physical side effects - like force lightning."
Me: "They resisted the physical side effects of force lightning completely."
X: "Proof that force lightning generates physical side effects."
You call that discussion ? Logic ? Great argument ? I call that anti-post-ROTJ-bias by people who did acknowledge several times that they didn't like / didn't read the post ROTJ stuff. And why should I give one inch if DN Luke is basically threated like ROTJ Luke with uber force abilities not usable in combat downplaying him completly while putting Kun (and the entire TOTJ gang) on a podestial ?
Exact quantification of the amount of force powers a single person is wielding ? Of course that can't be done.
No. And indeed, you can't tell HOW much a person is boosted unless you have something to compare their stacked abilities to. If the combination of 375 planets was all compressed in one force push, realistically the other side of the planet should have been ripped off and Luke launched into space. If anything, the idea of sapping planets and their inhabitant's force powers does NOT appear to stack that easily. Nihilus drained entire planets of force users, yet he could not accumulate all that power into any one attack. Sidious, who had sapped the lifeforce of billions, was overpowered by Leia, Luke, and a baby. Unless you want to argue the ridiculous idea that that trio >>>> billions of lifeforces in sheer power, it's obvious that draining or drawing on others force powers doesn't stack linearly.
Still we have DE Sidious as an example for a boost in force powers by using a similar technique - and he used only parts of one planets potential.
See above.
So can you please tell me why it's illogical to assume that if using a part of one planets potential give a force user a considerable boost in terms of force powers, a far greater amount of potential used would give another force user an equal / greater boost in terms of force powers ?
Actually, I'm saying we don't know HOW much that boost is, or where it caps off. If anything, it seems to be the case that one can only take so muchl such as Tavion being possessed by the spirit of Ragnos. To revive that spirit even that much required draining planets, yet in Tavion's body, Ragnos was apparently defeated by a mere jedi knight. So again, unless you want to argue that Jaden >>>> combined power of the best Sith lord and several planets, it's apparent that one's body can only accept so much force power. And again, there's no feats on such a titanic scale from single force users after such a manuever.
But instead of simply accepting this since there isn't much to put against that statement people come up with "Either you give me an exact number HOW much Raynar's power was boosted or you drop the entire point". What's that ? Giving an inch ? Great debating manners ? That's like saying "Because we can't exactly tell how much DE Sidious force power was boosted by using the people on Byss he's not stronger than he was in ROTS / ROTJ". Would you accept that statement ?
No, that's certainly not what I'm implying. I hope that's clearer by now. I won't deny that a power boost was given, but the number of planets isn't a clear indicator of HOW much it was boosted, and most certainly doesn't differentiate HOW much it was before the boost. Raynar's "cap" for force intake could be pretty low, or perhaps he was unable to use the majority of it at once.
Originally posted by Wesker
No. And indeed, you can't tell HOW much a person is boosted unless you have something to compare their stacked abilities to.
Raynar's actual power by far exceeded those of trained Jedi (he could mind-control people like Jaina and Leia without effort as it seems) and it took the combined power of several Jedi Knights to shrug off these kind of mind-manipulations.
Considering that he seemed to be not the greatest force user in the academy during the raid of the Shadow Academy against Yavin 4 (in fact he nearly got killed while his fellow students did pretty well) as well as in his role in the Myrkr strike team during the NJO (he got wounded heavily in contrary to people like Jaina or Lowbacca) I'd say that boost in force power was immense.
If the combination of 375 planets was all compressed in one force push, realistically the other side of the planet should have been ripped off and Luke launched into space.
No because it was aimed at Luke and Luke might have absorbed some power of that push the same way Kun "resisted" Odan's "force cut off" attack partitially (especially since the resistance against enemy telekinesis is some of the basic things taught). DE Sidious using force lightning against Luke just put Luke on his ass without considerable effects - Raynar tossed DN Luke through a huge room and he slammed into the wall hard enough to break Luke's helmet and leave a dent in the wall.
If anything, the idea of sapping planets and their inhabitant's force powers does NOT appear to stack that easily. Nihilus drained entire planets of force users, yet he could not accumulate all that power into any one attack. Sidious, who had sapped the lifeforce of billions, was overpowered by Leia, Luke, and a baby. Unless you want to argue the ridiculous idea that that trio >>>> billions of lifeforces in sheer power, it's obvious that draining or drawing on others force powers doesn't stack linearly.
Nihilus didn't absorb the power he "ate" it. He wasn't able to drain it and then use it again - he was a black hole in the force. And Sidious in DE, as I've told you, just used a part of the lifeforce of the people on Byss since he gave parts of it to other force users (who turned from none force users into quite capable fighters).
Of course the power doesn't stack linearly and I don't want to argue that - the point is that Sidious with his power-backup didn't manage to do any considerable damage to Luke in DE (who is far weaker than his DN version) when Raynar nearly killed Luke (at least Luke did think that he would have died not wearing the helmet).
Actually, I'm saying we don't know HOW much that boost is, or where it caps off. If anything, it seems to be the case that one can only take so muchl such as Tavion being possessed by the spirit of Ragnos. To revive that spirit even that much required draining planets, yet in Tavion's body, Ragnos was apparently defeated by a mere jedi knight. So again, unless you want to argue that Jaden >>>> combined power of the best Sith lord and several planets, it's apparent that one's body can only accept so much force power. And again, there's no feats on such a titanic scale from single force users after such a manuever.
That isn't really compareable to Raynar imho. Raynar was basicaly mind-melted with the Killiks and the Joiners in the Nests under his control. He didn't have to absorb their power he just had to channel it through his body. You can simply imagine the entire "hive" as a giant single entity with a single mind.
No, that's certainly not what I'm implying. I hope that's clearer by now. I won't deny that a power boost was given, but the number of planets isn't a clear indicator of HOW much it was boosted, and most certainly doesn't differentiate HOW much it was before the boost. Raynar's "cap" for force intake could be pretty low, or perhaps he was unable to use the majority of it at once.
As I said: Raynar didn't have to intake the force in his body since his body was part of the hive and the hive is basically an entity with a single mind. Raynar is basically compareable to Sekot in the NJO series: Sekot was the "intelligence" of the Zonama Sekot and could use the amassed force power of all living beings on the planet (which appeared to be quite massive since Sekot stopped the entire YV invasion fleet and knocked down the Jedi team visiting the planet with a single attack) - Raynar is the "intelligence" of the Killik nests and can use their amassed force power.
Originally posted by Wesker
Certainly, I'm just dying to see how Nai and others plan to substantiate just HOW much the 375 planets boosted Raynar's force powers, IF that can be substantiated. Before I get into that debate again, let's just say the effort isn't worth the end result.
Nai and the others? Am I all the sudden a lackey?
Well, here's my best attempt. BTW, don't just say I'm wrong if you can't show why.
If we look at the difference between ROTJ Sidious and DE Sidious we can see pretty well what the difference is, meaning what the additional power gained from the planet did to him. Sort of at least.
The most powerful feat that we see Sidious do it in ROTS when he lifts three of the Senate Pods into the air high above his head. There is only one way to do this that I can think of. You guessed it, math and science.
BTW, rather then just labeling this pseudoscience like I know you will try to do, prove it wrong if you can.
Lets say that each Senate Pod weighs 150 metric tons. Obviously this is an extremely generous estimate, as thats far more then even a main battle tank. Lets also say that Sidious raised the pods 300 meters into the air. Again, this is extremely generous in YOU"RE favor. And then lets say that he raised the pods to the entire distance in a single second.
So, ROTS Sidious was able to move 150 metric tons with an acceleration of 300 meters per second.
Let's just plug these numbers into the formula: F = m*a
150,000 * 300 = 45,000,000 newtons of force behind that lift. That is a lot.
^The reason that it is 150,000 rather then 150 is because the kilogram is the base unit, not the metric ton.
This equates to 45,000,000 watts as well, as it was done over the course of a single second. Very impressive.
However, DE Sidious has one feat which is FAR more impressive.
Any of the following in bold is a direct quote from stardestroyer.net, which is a very reliable source. But don't take my word for it, check it out yourself.
If ISDs carry 200 Turbolasers (as suggested by blueprints), then they must average around 2.5 million terawatts of sustained firepower per cannon. Of course, there are different sized cannons, some releasing less power than this, and some more.
The common belief is that ISDs carry 60 turbolasers. This is very conservative, since 64 cannons are mounted immediately lateral to the command superstructure alone, with scores covering the rest of the hull. However, if we assume there are only 60 cannons, then they must average around 8 million terawatts of firepower each.
^ quoted from the turbolasers commentary section, under the firepower page. If you want to see all of the proof behind it, it's there.
Since 200 turbolasers appears to be the actual number for the number of turbolasers, we'll go with each turbolaser having an output of 2.5 million terrawats.
In the opening scene of AHN we see approximately 25 turbolaser blasts fired from an ISD in 5 seconds. That equates to 5 shots per second.
We see in ROTJ that the Mon Calamari cruisers were able to go 30 minutes before their shields started to fail.
Lets add the above up.
2.5 terrawatts * 5 shots per second = 12.5 terrawatts of fire taken by the shields EVERY SINGLE SECOND.
The cruisers were able to survive for 1,800 seconds before their shields started to fail. From this we can discover how much energy the shields were capable of absorbing.
12,500,000,000,000 watts * 1,800(seconds) = 2.25e+16 watts
2.25e+16 watts means 22,500,000,000,000,000 watts of energy. That is a LOT.
Now, to find out how much more powerful DE Sidious is then ROTS Sidious, we look at how much enery Sidious would have generate in the same amount of time, ASSUMING THAT SIDIOUS WOULD HAVE BEEN ABLE TO KEEP UP THE MAXIMUM BURTS OF ENERGY FOR AN ENTIRE HALF ON WITHOUT REST!! This is extremely in YOUR favor, as the chance of Sidious being able to keep up the maximum burts of energy that we seen from him for an entire half hour is practically zero.
45,000,000watts(the amount of power Sidious produced, as calculated above) * 1,800(seconds) = 81,000,000,000 watts
Since DE Sidious destroyed a fleet with his force storms, we can calculate that how much stronger DE SIdious was then ROTS Sidious.
22,500,000,000,000,000 watts - 81,000,000,000 watts = 2.2499919e+16 watts
2.2499919e+16 = (rounded) 22,499,920,000,000,000 watts.
That is a huge difference in energy.
But wait, there's more.
22,499,920,000,000,000 watts * 375 planets = 8.43747e+18 watts
8.43747e+18 watts = 8,437,470,000,000,000 watts
Notice that the above calculations are based on the idea that DE Sidious only destroyed a single Mon Calamari Cruiser with his force storms. The actual number would be several times higher, as he took on an entire fleet of them.
Notice that I have been extremely generous in your favor throughout proving the power of 375 planets. If you can, prove me wrong. The proof is there, stardestroyer.net.
But what does the above number mean? A lot really. We just have to put it into perspective with Exar.
If we look at Exar's instakill, which you parade around as being able to blast through walls, we will so learn who was more powerful, Raynar or Exar.
Since I don't know through how much of the Temple Exar's blast went through, I am going to assume that he blasted through a rectangular prism that is 10 meters tall, 10 meters wide, and a hundred meters deep and made of iron with such force that he vaporised the entire cube.
He(Wong) states that, to cause flashes that large, the weapons must have vaporised at least one cubic meter of armor. If so, and we assume that the Death Star is made of iron; the four X-Wing cannons output approximately 60 GJ of energy.
So, we can see from this that a block of iron that is one meter long will take 60 GJ of energy to vaporize. If it is done in one second, it will equal 60 GW. If it is done in a tenth of a second it will take 600 GW.
The rectangle that I mentioned Exar blasting through with enough force to vaporise has a mass that is 10,000 times greater then a one meter long cube. 10 * 10 = 100. 100 * 100 = 10,000.
So, we take 600 GW and multiply it by 10,000 and we get 6e+15watts.
6e+15 = 6,000,000,000,000,000 watts
To find out which blast is more powerful the the other and by how much, we'll take Raynar's power figure and divide it by Kun's.
8,437,470,000,000,000 watts / 6,000,000,000,000,000 watts = 1.406245
This shows that Raynar had roughly 40% more power then Exar did. Don't forget that Luke overpowered Raynar.
Don't forget that I was very generous in Exar's favor throughout the procedure you see above. Prove me wrong if you can.
Well, here's my best attempt. BTW, don't just say I'm wrong if you can't show why.
You're wrong. You're operating off of way too many false premises to number, among them:
ROTS Sidious' "most powerful" feat as lifting three pods.
Assigning random nonsensical numbers to objects you don't have the slightest clue about.
"We see" in ROTJ that Mon Calamari cruises go 30 minutes before the fall of their shields... despite the fact that the Imperial fleet was given a direct order by the Emperor not to engage the Rebel fleet.
Assuming that DE Sidious had to go through deflector shields, despite the fact that the Force penetrates deflector shields (because only the ysalimari protected people from Force attacks).
Apparently not believing that Kun's blasts struck through walls, despite that it's shown to do so on-panel.
Assuming that the walls are comparable to iron cubes, when they're in fact made of stone, which is less conductive of energy.
Pulling "Raynar's power figure" out of your ass.
You're dead wrong. QED.
What's it like to waste so much time operating under at least six false premises?
Originally posted by IKC
[B]You're wrong. You're operating off of way too many false premises to number, among them:ROTS Sidious' "most powerful" feat as lifting three pods.
No. He's right there at least when it comes to physical visible effects.
Assigning random nonsensical numbers to objects you don't have the slightest clue about.
I agree. 150 metric tons for one of that Senate pods must be a joke - that's 10 times the weight of an X-Wing. And Glentract: To calculate the energy needed to move an object you need:
a) the exact weight of the object
b) the movement speed of the object
c) the distance the object was moved with
And in this case you have 3 unknowns here.
"We see" in ROTJ that Mon Calamari cruises go 30 minutes before the fall of their shields... despite the fact that the Imperial fleet was given a direct order by the Emperor not to engage the Rebel fleet.
They were attacked by the Star Fighters but the only MC cruisers I remember to be destroyed were those that got hit by the Death Star.
Assuming that DE Sidious had to go through deflector shields, despite the fact that the Force penetrates deflector shields (because only the ysalimari protected people from Force attacks).
That doesn't really matter. He still destroyed complete ships with his force storm which is descriped by the narrator as "great storm of raw energy" that "rends the fabric of space itself". And that needs tons of energy.
Apparently not believing that Kun's blasts struck through walls, despite that it's shown to do so on-panel.
I think you missunderstood him here. He assumed that Exar's amulet blast vaporized a 10 x 10 x 100 metre iron wall.
Assuming that the walls are comparable to iron cubes, when they're in fact made of stone, which is less conductive of energy.
Err...a stone wall (density ~2300 kg/m³) is still easier to vaporize than a wall consisting of iron (density ~7000 kg/m³). Being less conductive of energy make it even easier.
What's it like to waste so much time operating under at least six false premises?
He can't tell you because he copied that from EoD. 😉