Jacen/Jaina Solo and Kyp Durron vs Exar Kun and Ulic Qel Droma

Started by IKC7 pages
No. He's right there at least when it comes to physical visible effects.

And he's wrong to assume out of hand that it's the extent of his abilities.

They were attacked by the Star Fighters but the only MC cruisers I remember to be destroyed were those that got hit by the Death Star.

Which makes his nonsense about Mon Calamari shields moot.

That doesn't really matter. He still destroyed complete ships with his force storm which is descriped by the narrator as "great storm of raw energy" that "rends the fabric of space itself". And that needs tons of energy.

Actually, it does really matter because he plugged shield strength into the figure for Sidious' power when it has no place in there. Nice try.

I think you missunderstood him here. He assumed that Exar's amulet blast vaporized a 10 x 10 x 100 metre iron wall.

And he assumed falsely. This combined with his other false premises makes his argument null and void.

Err...a stone wall (density ~2300 kg/m³) is still easier to vaporize than a wall consisting of iron (density ~7000 kg/m³). Being less conductive of energy make it even easier.

Name the type of stone, Nai, that the massassi used to build the temples of Yavin 4.

What's that? You can't? So that figure for density is arbitrary and meaningless?

And... Do you understand what conductivity means? To make this shorter, the fact that stone is less conductive of energy than iron makes it harder for it to conduct (and thus be affected by) energy.

Originally posted by IKC
And he's wrong to assume out of hand that it's the extent of his abilities.

I think if Sidious could have done more to destroy Yoda he would have done this.


Which makes his nonsense about Mon Calamari shields moot.

Pretty much.


Actually, it does really matter because he plugged shield strength into the figure for Sidious' power when it has no place in there. Nice try.

You did notice that he completely ignored the fact that Sidious did destroy those ships ? What he has done is calculating the amount of energy needed to overcharge the shields while Sidious simply tore them into pieces.

And since the force storm used in the end of DE I pretty much looks like a minor black hole (or as the narrator tells us "a storm of raw energy" that "rends space itself" and the energy needed to generate something like that is apparently much greater than what is needed to overload a ships shields. That's why I said it doesn't matter.


Name the type of stone, Nai, that the massassi used to build the temples of Yavin 4.

What's that? You can't? So that figure for density is arbitrary and meaningless?

I was using the density of Granite. Give me the name of a stone material with a higher density than iron and talk to me again. Unless the temple wall was constructed out of pure diamonds I don't see a chance you will find one.


And... Do you understand what conductivity means? To make this shorter, the fact that stone is less conductive of energy than iron makes it harder for it to conduct (and thus be affected by) energy.

Do you understand what conductivity means ? The better a material conducts energy the less it will get affected by the energy itself because it conducts it. Diamonds (nice example) are the best heat conducters you can find and thus they have a very high melting point.

And please pass me the "force energy conduction" chart for different materials or tell me what kind of energy was fired by Kun's amulet.

I think if Sidious could have done more to destroy Yoda he would have done this.

Apparently you didn't understand the point. Sidious wasn't even showing much effort in lifting the pods. What he can do to destroy Yoda or not is irrelevant; lifting the pods is obviously not the greatest extent of his powers.

You did notice that he completely ignored the fact that Sidious did destroy those ships ? What he has done is calculating the amount of energy needed to overcharge the shields while Sidious simply tore them into pieces.

And his argument is entirely irrelevant because he's calculating energy for something that never happened.

And since the force storm used in the end of DE I pretty much looks like a minor black hole (or as the narrator tells us "a storm of raw energy" that "rends space itself" and the energy needed to generate something like that is apparently much greater than what is needed to overload a ships shields. That's why I said it doesn't matter.

Want to provide proof that generating a Force Storm "requires more energy" than overloading a capital ship's shields, or are you just operating off of yet another unsupported assumption?

I was using the density of Granite. Give me the name of a stone material with a higher density than iron and talk to me again. Unless the temple wall was constructed out of pure diamonds I don't see a chance you will find one.

Okay Nai. Give me the density of durasteel, a material that only exists in Star Wars and other sci-fi.

Give me the density of cortosis, a mineral (i.e. ROCK, STONE).

What's that? You mean we can't just assign arbitrary numbers to things we see in the comics without a premise to go on? That's what I thought. Moot.

Do you understand what conductivity means ? The better a material conducts energy the less it will get affected by the energy itself because it conducts it. Diamonds (nice example) are the best heat conducters you can find and thus they have a very high melting point.

Right, Nai. That's why our computers are made entirely out of metal and there's not an ounce of silicon or other semiconductors to be found... oh, wait.

So explain rubber, Nai. Rubber doesn't conduct electricity well. Rubber's not much affected by electricity. Hm. Seems like your understanding is ass-backwards.

And please pass me the "force energy conduction" chart for different materials or tell me what kind of energy was fired by Kun's amulet.

Irrelevant misdirection, logical fallacy. I pointed out that he was using a very good conductor as his example when, in the real situation, the material was a poor conductor.

I'm gonna have to give this one to IKC.

Originally posted by IKC
Apparently you didn't understand the point. Sidious wasn't even showing much effort in lifting the pods. What he can do to destroy Yoda or not is irrelevant; lifting the pods is obviously not the greatest extent of his powers.

I was talking about how this was his greatest feat in terms of "physical" energy used. Obviously he put more effort behind the force lightning later but I hope you won't try to compare force lightning that was blocked by Yoda to a force storm that tore apart various capital ships (without the Emperor concentrating much).


Want to provide proof that generating a Force Storm "requires more energy" than overloading a capital ship's shields, or are you just operating off of yet another unsupported assumption?

It should be so obvious but ok:
http://intern.darklegion.de/eddie/forcestorm.jpg

So we have "a great storm of raw energy that rends the fabric of space itself" according to the narrator. That statement alone should be enough. But well: As we can see that the ships are basically torn into pieced by ripping them apart (which points to gravitational energy pulling them inside the storm). Judging from the Blockade Runner (marked green - 150 metres length) the lowest possible diameter of the storm is roughly 1.2 kilometres (although it appears to be far greater if you compare it to the MC Cruiser - 1800 metres length).

If you'd like to turn our sun into a black hole the result would be a black hole with roughly 2.9 kilomtres diameter with a gravitational binding energy of 6.9 × 10E41 J. Since the theory estimates the gravitational energy of a black hole is proportional to its diameter even the lowest estimation that can be made for the force storm (1.2 kilometres) would give it a energy of 2.86 x 10E41 J.

Just to give you something to compare. Mike Wong (stardestroyer.net) estimated a power of 1E38 J for one Death Star shot. So the destructive power of the force storm is equal to around 28,600 shots from the Death Stars main weapon. And since we see single shots from the DS breaking through MC cruisers shields and vaporize the ships I guess something which has thousand times the energy of a DS shot should need quite more power than "overloading ships shields".

Of course I'm not going to ignore the fact that Sidious (as stated in DE) didn't have complete control over that "chaos" he unleashed as Luke said. But still he conjured that thing up out of nowhere.


Okay Nai. Give me the density of durasteel, a material that only exists in Star Wars and other sci-fi.

Give me the density of cortosis, a mineral (i.e. ROCK, STONE).

What's that? You mean we can't just assign arbitrary numbers to things we see in the comics without a premise to go on? That's what I thought. Moot.

Again you come up with comparing apples to oranges.

a)
Durasteel is a metal alloy and the hardest material in the SW universe - they use to craft ship hulls with that. But I doubt the density is ubor-high since DX-2 Disruptor Pistol and DXR-6 Disruptor Rifle (so handguns) are stated to be able to disintegrate 0.5³ metres of Durasteel with a single shot. Not to mention that people used to wear Durasteel armor - I doubt that things like Vader's helmet posess a weight of dozens of pounds...
And still this is no stone.

b)
Cortosis is another metal (cortosis ore - hint, hint) which isn't known for his density but more for the fact that it's conductive properties caused lightsabers to shorten or become useless on contact. Again I doubt an ubor-density due to the fact that cortosis was exstensivly used in shadowtrooper armor and Shadday Potkin was using a cortosis blade against Vader in "Purge".

c)
You're talking about the same temples that look like STONE temples in ANH and descriped as STONE temples in the JA trilogy ? Do "stones" in the SW universe now pocess uber-densities because you like it that way ? I wonder why the didn't built starships out of that virtually undestructible (unless Kun tries it himself) stone but instead used metal ?
Oh wait a minute. There is virtually indestructable stone in the SW universe. The Hijarna Stone (fortress on Hijarna, Hand of Thrawn) can absorb turbolaser fire like a sponge. Unfortunatelly it's black so that doesn't match the STONE temples on Yavin 4...


Right, Nai. That's why our computers are made entirely out of metal and there's not an ounce of silicon or other semiconductors to be found... oh, wait.

Oh wait. There is not an ounce of silicon used in your PC since it's 1,2 nm thick silicondioxid and because it's so ubor effective (leakage currents) Intel is doing research on better materials to built chips (Gate dielectic metal) ?


So explain rubber, Nai. Rubber doesn't conduct electricity well. Rubber's not much affected by electricity. Hm. Seems like your understanding is ass-backwards.

You do know the difference between a semiconductor and an isolator ? The conductivity of an semiconductor increases exponatially when applying heat on it while an isolator doesn't conduct anything. Iron isn't affected much by electricity either. So what are you trying to tell me ?


Irrelevant misdirection, logical fallacy. I pointed out that he was using a very good conductor as his example when, in the real situation, the material was a poor conductor.

It isn't irrelevant because "conduction" only applies on electrical energy when we have no idea what kind of energy Kun was using. A wall of rubber might protect you from an electic attack but it will still melt if someone uses heat against it not even talking about kinetic energy. So the only irrevelant thing here is talking about the conductivity of different materials.

kyp kills exar kun cause kyp pwns then jacen and jaina kill ulic

I was talking about how this was his greatest feat in terms of "physical" energy used. Obviously he put more effort behind the force lightning later but I hope you won't try to compare force lightning that was blocked by Yoda to a force storm that tore apart various capital ships (without the Emperor concentrating much).

And you're still arguing an irrelevancy, because neither feat shows the extent of Sidious' power. And I'd like to see how DE Sidious "wasn't concentrating much" when he was making a Force Storm.

So we have "a great storm of raw energy that rends the fabric of space itself" according to the narrator. That statement alone should be enough.

Too bad that it isn't, because in no way can you provide how much energy it takes to create such a thing.

But well: As we can see that the ships are basically torn into pieced by ripping them apart (which points to gravitational energy pulling them inside the storm). Judging from the Blockade Runner (marked green - 150 metres length) the lowest possible diameter of the storm is roughly 1.2 kilometres (although it appears to be far greater if you compare it to the MC Cruiser - 1800 metres length).

If you'd like to turn our sun into a black hole the result would be a black hole with roughly 2.9 kilomtres diameter with a gravitational binding energy of 6.9 × 10E41 J. Since the theory estimates the gravitational energy of a black hole is proportional to its diameter even the lowest estimation that can be made for the force storm (1.2 kilometres) would give it a energy of 2.86 x 10E41 J.

That's nice and all, but you're operating under yet another false premise:

That a Force Storm is somehow a black hole.

Sorry, it isn't. It is a tear in space-time as we see in the very scan that you found.

Another false premise you assume to be true (this logical fallacy, by the way, is called Begging the Question) is that the Force Storm ripped the ships apart via gravitational energy.

There is no evidence for that, the energy could have easily been electromagnetic or a number of other types.

Just to give you something to compare. Mike Wong (stardestroyer.net) estimated a power of 1E38 J for one Death Star shot. So the destructive power of the force storm is equal to around 28,600 shots from the Death Stars main weapon. And since we see single shots from the DS breaking through MC cruisers shields and vaporize the ships I guess something which has thousand times the energy of a DS shot should need quite more power than "overloading ships shields".

This doesn't even warrant a response, your numbers leading up to it are invalid since they're based on false premises.

Again you come up with comparing apples to oranges.

No, I "come up" with making you look like a fool for assigning arbitrary numbers to materials you don't know shit about.

a)
Durasteel is a metal alloy and the hardest material in the SW universe - they use to craft ship hulls with that. But I doubt the density is ubor-high since DX-2 Disruptor Pistol and DXR-6 Disruptor Rifle (so handguns) are stated to be able to disintegrate 0.5³ metres of Durasteel with a single shot. Not to mention that people used to wear Durasteel armor - I doubt that things like Vader's helmet posess a weight of dozens of pounds...
And still this is no stone.

It is not the hardest material in Star Wars, Nai. If stones were as malleable and lightweight as metal, they'd be used as armor as well.

The properties of disruptor weapons are such that they disintigrate materials on the molecular level. Normal blasters and their variants (turbolasers) do not have this property. Your assertions on the relative durability of durasteel are pretty moot and irrelevant.

b)
Cortosis is another metal (cortosis ore - hint, hint) which isn't known for his density but more for the fact that it's conductive properties caused lightsabers to shorten or become useless on contact. Again I doubt an ubor-density due to the fact that cortosis was exstensivly used in shadowtrooper armor and Shadday Potkin was using a cortosis blade against Vader in "Purge".

Irrelevant misdirection. I asked you to provide its density.

c)
You're talking about the same temples that look like STONE temples in ANH and descriped as STONE temples in the JA trilogy ? Do "stones" in the SW universe now pocess uber-densities because you like it that way ? I wonder why the didn't built starships out of that virtually undestructible (unless Kun tries it himself) stone but instead used metal?

There is no material with a scientific name (or even a layman's name) of "stone," Nai. As I'm sure you know, there are different kinds of stones. So unless you can tell us with proof positive what kind of stone the Massassi Temples are built from, any speculation as to their density is entirely irrelevant and any conclusion based on it is based on a false premise.

And starships are armored with metal because metal is malleable and generally lightweight. Most stones (at least those used for construction) are neither.

I asked you these questions because I knew you couldn't answer, thus any attempt to pull a number out of your ass regarding the Massassi temple stones are little more than speculative nonsense.

Oh wait a minute. There is virtually indestructable stone in the SW universe. The Hijarna Stone (fortress on Hijarna, Hand of Thrawn) can absorb turbolaser fire like a sponge. Unfortunatelly it's black so that doesn't match the STONE temples on Yavin 4...

And you still can't name the stone that they're actually constructed from, so your point is still moot and is still an irrelevant misdirection.

Oh wait. There is not an ounce of silicon used in your PC since it's 1,2 nm thick silicondioxid and because it's so ubor effective (leakage currents) Intel is doing research on better materials to built chips (Gate dielectic metal) ?

Irrelevant misdirection. I also said, "or other semiconductors."

You do know the difference between a semiconductor and an isolator ? The conductivity of an semiconductor increases exponatially when applying heat on it while an isolator doesn't conduct anything. Iron isn't affected much by electricity either. So what are you trying to tell me ?

Rubber is not a semiconductor, Nai. Rubber is not much affected by electricity, hence why the safest place in a thunder storm is in a car with rubber tires.

It isn't irrelevant because "conduction" only applies on electrical energy when we have no idea what kind of energy Kun was using. A wall of rubber might protect you from an electic attack but it will still melt if someone uses heat against it not even talking about kinetic energy. So the only irrevelant thing here is talking about the conductivity of different materials.

Really, Nai? Is that why conductivity also applies to thermal energy? Is that why metals typically conduct both of them very well?

Huh. Looks like you're operating under another false premise.

Originally posted by furbys are evil
kyp kills exar kun cause kyp pwns then jacen and jaina kill ulic
No,he doesn't ,Fanboy. 🙄

I'm giving this one to Kun and Ulic,they're a lot more powerful than Jaina/Jacen and Kyp,those three are wayyy out of their league to fight these two.

Originally posted by IKC
And you're still arguing an irrelevancy, because neither feat shows the extent of Sidious' power. And I'd like to see how DE Sidious "wasn't concentrating much" when he was making a Force Storm.

He kept talking to Leia and Luke while conjuring the thing up...


Too bad that it isn't, because in no way can you provide how much energy it takes to create such a thing.

Wow. Not this stupid thing again. There is not a single force power which entire effect can be put into "energy" units - but I can do that with fire from a blaster bolt. Does that mean that Han Solo can pwn Ragnos now ? Obviously that thing ripped apart capital ships with apparent ease. So what ? Because I can't give you the exact amount of energy needed to do something like that we should just ignore that thing ? Great.


That's nice and all, but you're operating under yet another false premise:

That a Force Storm is somehow a black hole.

Sorry, it isn't. It is a tear in space-time as we see in the very scan that you found.

What do you think a thing that creates visible anomalities in space-time (a black hole) is ?


Another false premise you assume to be true (this logical fallacy, by the way, is called Begging the Question) is that the Force Storm ripped the ships apart via gravitational energy.

There is no evidence for that, the energy could have easily been electromagnetic or a number of other types.

No. Electomagnetic energy wouldn't have affected the ships directly (shields) which counts for most other forms of energy too. And you see that the ships are torn apart rather slow which means that they are basically pulled into the storm and the only two energies that would do something like that are gravitational energy and magnetic energy (which it can't be).


This doesn't even warrant a response, your numbers leading up to it are invalid since they're based on false premises.

Since you can't proof my premises wrong they aren't "false". That thing exactly does the same things a black hole does. The only other explanation that can be found in the comics is the first appearance of the storm which descripes the thing as "wormhole" (which wouldn't destroy the things it sucks in) and would take even more energy to generate than a black hole (because that needs huge amounts anti-matter or exotic matter).


It is not the hardest material in Star Wars, Nai. If stones were as malleable and lightweight as metal, they'd be used as armor as well.

It is with the exception of quantum-crystalline armor (or quantum armor) used to construct the Sun Crusher.


The properties of disruptor weapons are such that they disintigrate materials on the molecular level. Normal blasters and their variants (turbolasers) do not have this property. Your assertions on the relative durability of durasteel are pretty moot and irrelevant.

Irrelevant misdirection. I asked you to provide its density.

I could do exact calculations (ship hull volumes / weight) to give you the density (or at least something coming close) of Durasteel and you would reply with "But that stones can have a higher density". So why should I bother to do something like that ?


There is no material with a scientific name (or even a layman's name) of "stone," Nai. As I'm sure you know, there are different kinds of stones. So unless you can tell us with proof positive what kind of stone the Massassi Temples are built from, any speculation as to their density is entirely irrelevant and any conclusion based on it is based on a false premise.

Wow...what news. You still won't find a mineral combination appearing in numbers high enough to built temples out of it in nature that density exceeds the density of metals (in this case iron).
So what you are doing is still "you can't give an exact number so drop the point" babble. If I'd do the same all that's left of Kun would be a person with unknown lightsaber skill compared to people not being Ulic and Vodo. Great. So Kun can exactly beat two people.


And starships are armored with metal because metal is malleable and generally lightweight. Most stones (at least those used for construction) are neither.

What do you call "lightweight" ? A 1m³ block of iron does have more weight than a 1m³ block of concrete.


I asked you these questions because I knew you couldn't answer, thus any attempt to pull a number out of your ass regarding the Massassi temple stones are little more than speculative nonsense.

Of course it's speculation. Everything here is speculation. "Kun can kill ESB Luke" is speculation since you can't really proof it. But judging from all materials I have seen so far "The temple walls do have a lower density than iron" appears to be more logical than "The walls have a higher density than iron". As well as "ESB Luke would get curbstomped by Kun" sounds more logical to me than "Kun would get curbstomped by ESB Luke". That's it.


And you still can't name the stone that they're actually constructed from, so your point is still moot and is still an irrelevant misdirection.

See above. You can't give me the first name of Palpatine and so he's unbeatable. Great argument there.


Rubber is not a semiconductor, Nai. Rubber is not much affected by electricity, hence why the safest place in a thunder storm is in a car with rubber tires.

Again great news. What do you think why I asked you if you know the difference between semiconducters and insulator ? Because Rubber is an insulator.


Really, Nai? Is that why conductivity also applies to thermal energy? Is that why metals typically conduct both of them very well?

Thermal conductivity and electical conductivity are two different things. A diamond for example is the best thermal conducter you can find but it's an insulator if it comes to electic energy (where in you logic it must be a superconductor). Seems as somebody here doesn't know what he's talking about...


Huh. Looks like you're operating under another false premise.

Huh. Looks like you're the one doing that or is "force energy" now similar to "electic" or "thermal" energy ? Because if that's what you want to tell me that Sidious just generated enough thermal / electic energy to vaporize several billion tons of durasteel.

Originally posted by Mysterious Man
I'm giving this one to Kun and Ulic,they're a lot more powerful than Jaina/Jacen and Kyp,those three are wayyy out of their league to fight these two.

Since when is Ulic more powerful than Jacen, Jaina and Kyp ? If anything he's the better lightsaber duellist and that's it.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Since when is [b]Ulic more powerful than Jacen, Jaina and Kyp ? If anything he's the better lightsaber duellist and that's it. [/B]
Exactly,but what Jacen/Jaina and Kyp is this?NJO?Or DN?Thats what I need to know in order to estimate who'll win.

The trio is of the Dark Nest time period.

Exar Kun is at his prime, amplified by Sadow's teachings and his unique double bladed style of fighting.

Qel Droma is also at his peak.

All in the first post.

@IKC - Cars are generally safer places to be in a thunderstorm because the metal of the car's exterior would conduct an electrical surge around the car, instead of straight through it. If rubber tires could protect a car from lightning on their own, I could walk into a tangle of live, severed power lines - naked save for my rubber-soled slippers - and wrap myself in them, fall asleep, wake up ten hours later, and walk away.

Just a point.

Mystery Man how exactly is Ulic more powerful than Kyp, since there is nothing to show that. I would say Exar and Ulic, or Exar takes this, again assuming he can use his amulet blast against a living, competent force user, which nobody has been able to prove thus far. If he can't he'll just curbstomp the trio or whoever is left alive after killing of Ulic, with his saber.

This should be really close.