Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Simply because it is controlled though will psionically and Surfers will is not greater than Kals. Magic is able to interfere with it, its why the Omega force didn't work many theorise. Many also theorise that heat vision may also be heavily psychic in nature e.g. why it was able to block the Omega beams. Nope surfer doesn't manipulate matter better than they do. I know it's not canon...... 😖hifty: but Surfer lost his coating to the Omega beams.Yup the threads need merging big time till another new member makes another. 🙁
Isn't that a good deal of speculation? The main theories I've heard as to why the Omega Beams didn't work on Superman are that he is important to the Source or that its just really bad writing. Incidental Darksied has reduced a Daxamite to dust before. So it would seem that matter manipulation can work on Superman-like characters and therefore Superman himself.
I still don't see how even a psionically controlled force field will block an attempt by the Surfer to transmute the elements that make up Superman's body (as the Daximites force field failed to protect him from a similar attack). I mean if Superman had some form of matter manipulation then I could see him perhaps "willing" his body not to change or something like that.
Originally posted by Sir WhirlysplatStill, Surfer can manipulate matter and energy to an impressive degree. He wouldn't have to take the time to depower Superman completely, only weaken him to the point where Surfer's attacks start doing major damage.
Simply because it is controlled though will psionically and Surfers will is not greater than Kals. Magic is able to interfere with it, its why the Omega force didn't work many theorise. Many also theorise that heat vision may also be heavily psychic in nature e.g. why it was able to block the Omega beams. Nope surfer doesn't manipulate matter better than they do.
A HtH fight doesn't automatically guarantee Superman the win. Superman could dominate a physical fight, but it takes quite a bit more than a Classic Thing haymaker to put Surfer down these days. He's dominated physical fights with the Abomination and Lunatik in the past and has absorbed punishment from Thor, Morg, and an enraged Hulk. He could absorb a fair amount of punishment from Supes, long enough to weaken him in my opinion.
Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Simply because it is controlled though will psionically and Surfers will is not greater than Kals. Magic is able to interfere with it, its why the Omega force didn't work many theorise. Many also theorise that heat vision may also be heavily psychic in nature e.g. why it was able to block the Omega beams. Nope surfer doesn't manipulate matter better than they do. I know it's not canon...... 😖hifty: but Surfer lost his coating to the Omega beams.
Has it ever been stated that Kal can control his bioelectric aura through will? If he can, it would certainly answer another question: If Superman is protected bioelectrically, then how come no one ever gets electrocuted when they touch him? However, again, I personally am not aware of any canon stating Superman has this ability.
And even if he does have this ability--to control his aura through "will"--what does that mean, exactly? What is "will?" Psionics? What does that mean, exactly? Psionics too has to involve some form of energy, energy which can interact with the physical world, implying that it too is--at least in part--physical. In which case, would it also be subject to the Surfer's influence, a master of energy manipulation?
My own theory on superpowers--that they all involve psiconsconsciousness--consciousness of quantum wavefunctions--would tend to put everyone on more/less equal ground. Superman does his thing through psiconscious manipulation of his atoms; Surfer can psiconsciously control "cosmic energy" (IMO, another wtf-does-that-mean, exactly?) to do his things. In which case, the question becomes: Who has a stronger level of psiconscious awareness?
How's that for complicating nonsense? 🤣
Originally posted by Mindship
Has it ever been stated that Kal can control his bioelectric aura through will? If he can, it would certainly answer another question: If Superman is protected bio[B]electrically, then how come no one ever gets electrocuted when they touch him? However, again, I personally am not aware of any canon stating Superman has this ability.And even if he does have this ability--to control his aura through "will"--what does that mean, exactly? What is "will?" Psionics? What does that mean, exactly? Psionics too has to involve some form of energy, energy which can interact with the physical world, implying that it too is--at least in part--physical. In which case, would it also be subject to the Surfer's influence, a master of energy manipulation?
My own theory on superpowers--that they all involve psiconsconsciousness--consciousness of quantum wavefunctions--would tend to put everyone on more/less equal ground. Superman does his thing through psiconscious manipulation of his atoms; Surfer can psiconsciously control "cosmic energy" (IMO, another wtf-does-that-mean, exactly?) to do his things. In which case, the question becomes: Who has a stronger level of psiconscious awareness?
How's that for complicating nonsense? 🤣 [/B]
Amazing, actually. Though it's a valid theory. The only problem is, Superman DOESN'T have control of his atoms. The field SHOULD be perfectly controllable by Surfer, as Superman's source of energy is also perfectly controllable by Surfer. Even if it's turned into something else, (other than pure solar energy) the only type of energy that Surfer really can't control is magic. Regardless of the actual composition of his field, Surfer should be able to take it from him, giving him one more way to win.
Also, in terms of blasting power, I'm looking for the scan of Nova blowing up a star and Surfer chastizing her for being careless. Nova is nowhere near as powerful as Surfer, and she blows up stars. 🙂
To Leonidas.
Changing the air to stone is very impressive. He changed the air, from one property to another. Why couldn't he do that to Superman?? As a biological being, he is simply made up of different properties that form a cohesive unit, ie him. And Surfer was a scientist before he was heraldized. It would be well within his powerset and range to change Superman into a statue of sorts.
Of course, that would make big blue look bad, but so what??
So Silver Surfer is faster?? Check one
So silver surfer can be as strong or far stronger? Check two
He can count in divisions of a second?? Check three
Silver Surfers various abilities makes Superman appear one dimensional?? Check four
If this was a Hulk vs Superman thread, all these reasons would justify why barring pis, Hulk should lose 10/10.
So why is there such a debate now??
Oh and that whole Superman punching through dimensions when not holding back is too easy. Why when he fought Darkseid, and Ds hit him, didn't his hand destroy dimensions??
Cuz it would be enough to beat Superman and we can't have that now can we?
This just reinforces my claim that Superman is a sentient plot device. He can now match a precrisis Superman evenly?? If i said this 4 months ago, that would have been derided by Superman haters and fans alike. Deny the truth in that statement. The excuse that he always holds back is ringing more and more hollow each time DC trots it out to explain the unexplainable. Unless Jun was right about the whole beam from Mxy thing, DC just really got lazy.
Originally posted by UniOmni
To Leonidas.
Changing the air to stone is very impressive. He changed the air, from one property to another. Why couldn't he do that to Superman?? As a biological being, he is simply made up of different properties that form a cohesive unit, ie him. And Surfer was a scientist before he was heraldized. It would be well within his powerset and range to change Superman into a statue of sorts.
Of course, that would make big blue look bad, but so what??
So Silver Surfer is faster?? Check one
So silver surfer can be as strong or far stronger? Check two
He can count in divisions of a second?? Check three
Silver Surfers various abilities makes Superman appear one dimensional?? Check fourIf this was a Hulk vs Superman thread, all these reasons would justify why barring pis, Hulk should lose 10/10.
So why is there such a debate now??Oh and that whole Superman punching through dimensions when not holding back is too easy. Why when he fought Darkseid, and Ds hit him, didn't his hand destroy dimensions??
Cuz it would be enough to beat Superman and we can't have that now can we?
This just reinforces my claim that Superman is a sentient plot device. He can now match a precrisis Superman evenly?? If i said this 4 months ago, that would have been derided by Superman haters and fans alike. Deny the truth in that statement. The excuse that he always holds back is ringing more and more hollow each time DC trots it out to explain the unexplainable. Unless Jun was right about the whole beam from Mxy thing, DC just really got lazy.
really good points stated. i think it's fairly obvious that silver surfer wins. not even because of speed, but due to his manipulation powers. he can simply drain the energy from superman. the end.
Originally posted by UniOmni
To Leonidas.
Changing the air to stone is very impressive. He changed the air, from one property to another. Why couldn't he do that to Superman?? As a biological being, he is simply made up of different properties that form a cohesive unit, ie him. And Surfer was a scientist before he was heraldized. It would be well within his powerset and range to change Superman into a statue of sorts.
Of course, that would make big blue look bad, but so what??
So Silver Surfer is faster?? Check one
So silver surfer can be as strong or far stronger? Check two
He can count in divisions of a second?? Check three
Silver Surfers various abilities makes Superman appear one dimensional?? Check fourIf this was a Hulk vs Superman thread, all these reasons would justify why barring pis, Hulk should lose 10/10.
So why is there such a debate now??Oh and that whole Superman punching through dimensions when not holding back is too easy. Why when he fought Darkseid, and Ds hit him, didn't his hand destroy dimensions??
Cuz it would be enough to beat Superman and we can't have that now can we?
This just reinforces my claim that Superman is a sentient plot device. He can now match a precrisis Superman evenly?? If i said this 4 months ago, that would have been derided by Superman haters and fans alike. Deny the truth in that statement. The excuse that he always holds back is ringing more and more hollow each time DC trots it out to explain the unexplainable. Unless Jun was right about the whole beam from Mxy thing, DC just really got lazy.
why can't he? because he never has. why wouldn't he just change EVERYONE to stone? he could come across a bad guy, turn him to stone, cart him off then turn him back. a lot easier than fighting and blasting and everything else he USUALLY does. and as a pacifist -- actually a lot BETTER option than fighting.
why can't he? same reason he has proven unable in the past to cure cancer. same reason he didn't just control the dna of everyone on earth to wipe out aids.
if you make the case that he CAN turn supes to stone, you must also allow that he can do all these other things that he hasn't done, then ask WHY he hasn't done them. make for boring comics? CONSTANT-EVERY-ISSUE-PIS? easier for me to accept that he can't manipulate organic matter like he can energy or inorganic matter (though, to be fair, there have been some indicators that he can tamper with living things on a cellular level -- just not in the way you are suggesting). otherwise, everything he does and DOESN'T do is just PIS. you may be willing to accept that, personally i'm not. maybe it's a self-imposed limit? whatever. he doesn't do it, and there must be a reason. you choose: PIS or he can't. i choose the latter -- easier to stomach than the thought that every issue of ss has been PIS.
and what leads you to believe that ss can amp his strength way past supes? again, nothing has been shown to indicate that. IF ss fought h2h imo he would lose. he never would, so it's a silly point. ss wins because he is a pre-eminent energy manipulator, simple as that and (unlike most energy manipulators supes beats) he's fast enough to stay away from supes.
as for supes v pc supes: deny it? be easy enough to deny. for several months now supes powers have been steadily increasing. i would also have said the same thing i've said in almost every pre-c debate: pc supes had a LOT of low showings. he was the most inconsistent character ever. black adam once battled him AND cap marvel at the same time and held them off briefly. no, i wouldn't have been surprised had someone said supes and pc supes had a good fight. that would fall right into line with what pc supes does.
Originally posted by leonidas
why can't he? because he never has. why wouldn't he just change EVERYONE to stone? he could come across a bad guy, turn him to stone, cart him off then turn him back. a lot easier than fighting and blasting and everything else he USUALLY does. and as a pacifist -- actually a lot BETTER option than fighting.why can't he? same reason he has proven unable in the past to cure cancer. same reason he didn't just control the dna of everyone on earth to wipe out aids.
Imo, the reason that he doesn't use matter manipulation on his opponents is that it would kill them. And as the Surfer cannot create (or recreate life as the case my be), so while he could return their bodies to their former state he couldn't bring them back to life.
And he does have some impressive healing feats (although this is often inconsistently portrayed)
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/CosPowUnlim_1996_004_27.jpg
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/CosPowUnlim_1996_004_28.jpg
Originally posted by leonidas
if you make the case that he CAN turn supes to stone, you must also allow that he can do all these other things that he hasn't done, then ask WHY he hasn't done them. make for boring comics? CONSTANT-EVERY-ISSUE-PIS? easier for me to accept that he can't manipulate organic matter like he can energy or inorganic matter (though, to be fair, there have been some indicators that he can tamper with living things on a cellular level -- just not in the way you are suggesting). otherwise, everything he does and DOESN'T do is just PIS. you may be willing to accept that, personally i'm not. maybe it's a self-imposed limit? whatever. he doesn't do it, and there must be a reason. you choose: PIS or he can't. i choose the latter -- easier to stomach than the thought that every issue of ss has been PIS.
The problem is that all organic compounds are are a large class of chemical compounds whose molecules contain carbon, with the exception of carbides, carbonates, and carbon oxides. Organic and inorganic compounds are made up of atoms of the same elements. So if he could alter a Nitrogen atom in an inorganic substance then there isn't any reason he couldn't alter the same Nitrogen atom in an organic substance. Or if the Surfer can turn the iron in a napkin dispenser to gold then he can turn the iron in your blood to gold as well. And excreta...
All the atoms in your or Superman's body should be fair play.
Originally posted by leonidas
and what leads you to believe that ss can amp his strength way past supes? again, nothing has been shown to indicate that. IF ss fought h2h imo he would lose. he never would, so it's a silly point. ss wins because he is a pre-eminent energy manipulator, simple as that and (unlike most energy manipulators supes beats) he's fast enough to stay away from supes.as for supes v pc supes: deny it? be easy enough to deny. for several months now supes powers have been steadily increasing. i would also have said the same thing i've said in almost every pre-c debate: pc supes had a LOT of low showings. he was the most inconsistent character ever. black adam once battled him AND cap marvel at the same time and held them off briefly. no, i wouldn't have been surprised had someone said supes and pc supes had a good fight. that would fall right into line with what pc supes does.
Yea, and imo they've been amping Superman towards his Pre-Crisis strength level for years.
Originally posted by leonidas
why can't he? because he never has. why wouldn't he just change EVERYONE to stone? he could come across a bad guy, turn him to stone, cart him off then turn him back. a lot easier than fighting and blasting and everything else he USUALLY does. and as a pacifist -- actually a lot BETTER option than fighting.why can't he? same reason he has proven unable in the past to cure cancer. same reason he didn't just control the dna of everyone on earth to wipe out aids.
if you make the case that he CAN turn supes to stone, you must also allow that he can do all these other things that he hasn't done, then ask WHY he hasn't done them. make for boring comics? CONSTANT-EVERY-ISSUE-PIS? easier for me to accept that he can't manipulate organic matter like he can energy or inorganic matter (though, to be fair, there have been some indicators that he can tamper with living things on a cellular level -- just not in the way you are suggesting). otherwise, everything he does and DOESN'T do is just PIS. you may be willing to accept that, personally i'm not. maybe it's a self-imposed limit? whatever. he doesn't do it, and there must be a reason. you choose: PIS or he can't. i choose the latter -- easier to stomach than the thought that every issue of ss has been PIS.
and what leads you to believe that ss can amp his strength way past supes? again, nothing has been shown to indicate that. IF ss fought h2h imo he would lose. he never would, so it's a silly point. ss wins because he is a pre-eminent energy manipulator, simple as that and (unlike most energy manipulators supes beats) he's fast enough to stay away from supes.
as for supes v pc supes: deny it? be easy enough to deny. for several months now supes powers have been steadily increasing. i would also have said the same thing i've said in almost every pre-c debate: pc supes had a LOT of low showings. he was the most inconsistent character ever. black adam once battled him AND cap marvel at the same time and held them off briefly. no, i wouldn't have been surprised had someone said supes and pc supes had a good fight. that would fall right into line with what pc supes does.
Some uses of power cosmic require more focus and energy than others. Straightforward applications (eg, cosmic bolt, shield) are simple and easy, the most natural thing for him to do. It would be like a person throwing a punch.
Other uses require more concentration. Generally speaking, manipulating matter on the atomic level is a far more complex affair. The Surfer took the mental time and energy to encase Spiderman and Daredevil in stone because he could afford to. They were no threat to him. It was, however, a nice opportunity to brush up on some atomic rearrangement skills.
Different types of power deployment require different levels of mental and cosmic energy.
marvel.com stated that the surfer could amp his strength to "incalculable levels"
you know what? to clear everything up about surfer's powers and what not. go here:
Originally posted by TheKahn
Imo, the reason that he doesn't use matter manipulation on his opponents is that it would kill them. And as the Surfer cannot create (or recreate life as the case my be), so while he could return their bodies to their former state he couldn't bring them back to life.And he does have some impressive healing feats (although this is often inconsistently portrayed)
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/CosPowUnlim_1996_004_27.jpg
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/CosPowUnlim_1996_004_28.jpgThe problem is that all organic compounds are are a large class of chemical compounds whose molecules contain carbon, with the exception of carbides, carbonates, and carbon oxides. Organic and inorganic compounds are made up of atoms of the same elements. So if he could alter a Nitrogen atom in an inorganic substance then there isn't any reason he couldn't alter the same Nitrogen atom in an organic substance. Or if the Surfer can turn the iron in a napkin dispenser to gold then he can turn the iron in your blood to gold as well. And excreta...
All the atoms in your or Superman's body should be fair play.Yea, and imo they've been amping Superman towards his Pre-Crisis strength level for years.
how would it kill them? you said yourself that if he can turn iron to gold then he can turn blood to gold, or whatever. so why not gold to blood again? he turned air to stone then turned stone to air. how could he kill them? don't think of it as recreating life, rather think of it as simply altering groups of atoms into something else then changing it back. fact is, he has NEVER used his power in this manner - or at least no one has ever shown him to do so. i've 100s of ss books and i've never seen it.
the only way around it is to label all his books and most of his fights PIS. sorry, i haven't been prepared to do that in other threads with other characters and i won't do it now. throws the whole character into question and makes everything he does or doesn't do . . . wrong. 40 years of a character's history is all of a sudden rendered nonsensical and suspect because his books would be boring? ❌
you and everyone else are free to believe what you like, and so am i. and personally i'm not buying what you're selling. 😉
ss wins, but not because he can turn supes into stone.
Originally posted by Mindship
Some uses of power cosmic require more focus and energy than others. Straightforward applications (eg, cosmic bolt, shield) are simple and easy, the most natural thing for him to do. It would be like a person throwing a punch.Other uses require more concentration. Generally speaking, manipulating matter on the atomic level is a far more complex affair. The Surfer took the mental time and energy to encase Spiderman and Daredevil in stone because he could afford to. They were no threat to him. It was, however, a nice opportunity to brush up on some atomic rearrangement skills.
Different types of power deployment require different levels of mental and cosmic energy.
that's fine and i accept that. but it also implies that certain aspects may wellbe beyond his measure of control. perhaps turning air to stone is within his command sprectrum, while turning flesh and blood is not. he HAS been shown to be unable to cure cancer in a book. clearly there is a limit. (wish i could recall off-hand what issue that was. it was posted somewhere in the umpteen millions of supes-ss threads).
and dman -- bios are pretty much worthless, regardless of where they are from. i don't even read them because they've been proven wrong on so many occasions there isn't a reason to. read the books -- that's where you learn the characters.
Originally posted by leonidas
how would it kill them? you said yourself that if he can turn iron to gold then he can turn blood to gold, or whatever. so why not gold to blood again? he turned air to stone then turned stone to air. how could he kill them? don't think of it as recreating life, rather think of it as simply altering groups of atoms into something else then changing it back. fact is, he has NEVER used his power in this manner - or at least no one has ever shown him to do so. i've 100s of ss books and i've never seen it.
im sorry, but wtf are you talking about? if he can turn supes to stone then hes dead.
Originally posted by leonidas
how would it kill them? you said yourself that if he can turn iron to gold then he can turn blood to gold, or whatever. so why not gold to blood again? he turned air to stone then turned stone to air. how could he kill them? don't think of it as recreating life, rather think of it as simply altering groups of atoms into something else then changing it back. fact is, he has NEVER used his power in this manner - or at least no one has ever shown him to do so. i've 100s of ss books and i've never seen it.
Do you want the cheap answer? He can recreate their bodies but not their souls. Once he transmutes their bodies he kills them and simply recreating their bodies isn't enough to bring him back to life. He would either have to retrieve their soul (as we have seen there is an afterlife in Marvel) or create a new one for them to truly bring them back to life. Neither of which he can do so using matter transmutation against his enemies really wouldn't be a non-lethal option.
Originally posted by leonidas
the only way around it is to label all his books and most of his fights PIS. sorry, i haven't been prepared to do that in other threads with other characters and i won't do it now. throws the whole character into question and makes everything he does or doesn't do . . . wrong. 40 years of a character's history is all of a sudden rendered nonsensical and suspect because his books would be boring? ❌you and everyone else are free to believe what you like, and so am i. and personally i'm not buying what you're selling. 😉
ss wins, but not because he can turn supes into stone.
It's ok. That's about all I'd expect from member of the JLAKMC.... 😈
