Originally posted by Femi32
Surfer has star-destroying blasts? Never seen it from him. That scan with Nova shows something happening on the surface of the sun. There wasn't any concussive star destroying blasts from Nova at all.
Thats because in the picture it said she was making the sun burn itself out completely different then blowing the sun up however still a large feat.
LOL Superman and his not holding back blah blah blah he has been slowly letting go for 60 years lol.
Originally posted by Femi32
Surfer has star-destroying blasts? Never seen it from him. That scan with Nova shows something happening on the surface of the sun. There wasn't any concussive star destroying blasts from Nova at all.
Huh? Nova flew into the sun, and proceeded to make it explode... She didn't blast it from afar, but it WAS her that destroyed it. Surfer has always been much more powerful than Nova, so he should have the ability to do the same.
EDIT: My bad, soleran just said the exact same thing...
Originally posted by Dizzle
So everything Thanos can do, Superman can do? I doubt it. His raw strength feats are relatively nonexistant, but so are any examples, or even hints at, an upper limit. And even though I personally can't explain it, Surfer has never, ever used real speed against Thanos. Hell, he's never done anything very impressive when fighting Thanos. It's basically assumed that he's just "supposed" to lose. I'd say Dynamic One explained the real reasons behind it extremely well.
Agreed, but if it's a "jobber" aura that keeps Thanos owning him, then Supes is nearly #1 in that aspect. Not everything Thanos can do, Supes can do, and vice versa...so you may have misunderstood what I meant by that. Seriously, Thanos just stood there and beat Surfer senseless with VERY FEW hits and without breaking a sweat. In that sense, I definitely believe Supes can do the same.
Originally posted by Dizzle
Except for the whole cosmic awareness thing... He wouldn't know to use either without it, so it stands to reason that he'd go for the much more effective one.
Dominus has cosmic awareness, Darkseid has it, GL's have it, Eradicator has MULTIVERSAL cosmic awareness. Surfer comes from a different universe, as has been made canon, if they fight on neutral ground, how will SS know the frequency? Supes can easily fool him using Torquasm VO.
Originally posted by Dizzle
Just SS? Hell, that's nowhere near his potential. Arguing that Supes could even begin to resist a superconcentrated blast of the one thing that, until very recently, would instantly strip him of power and kill him within minutes is putting him way ABOVE his level of power. He's resisted it before, but in nowhere near the amounts that Surfer can put in a blast, and not nearly well enough to justify anything but him being vaporized. He will know the wavelength because of cosmic awareness. He doesn't know anything about the radiation that harms Gladiator either, but he himself stated that he could produce it without hesitation. It may not BE Gladiator, but it's pretty much the same deal. There's absolutely no reason why cosmic awareness wouldn't work.
It's the same as saying SS can easily resist the punches of a being that punches other beings in his strengh class across Solar Systems when low class 100 characters have hurt him. Now about Glads, they (SS) are from the same universe, and Glads has no way to offset or trick SS cosmic awareness..and seriously, Cosmic awareness is not all it's cracked up to be in fights, If so...Doom wouldnt have so easily stolen his power. It's a lot more handy for "imbalances" in the universe type of thing.
Originally posted by Dizzle
Several things. A) How does this stop cosmic awareness? I thought you were suggesting that Supes would use his mental powers to somehow block it. B) Surfer doesn't typically use telepathy offensively... And wouldn't Supes have done all of that using Dominus's own powers anyway? C) How long does that take?
Easy, It creates an environment with Supes controls. He'd be using the PC to even figure out what the hell was going on. Even if SS tried to use telepathy offensively, it's like a "firewall" for the stuff. Plus, it would allow Supes some access to SS power as well, though not any kind of complete control of it of course. Thanos has used mind tricks on SS quite effectively, and I'd consider Thanos a more defensive TP than an offensive one.
Originally posted by Dizzle
Was Flash using his speed to potential when fighting Supes? Using his power well, Wally would curbstomp Superman into oblivion. Did Eradicator ever use his ungodly speed to fight Superman? Does Eradicator actually have any reaction time speed feats that suggest he could even begin to pull off a speedblitz? As I recall, you don't accept people using fights against speedsters that don't use their speed as a valid argument for Thanos or Thor, so why make an exception when it's Superman? Surfer's feats simply outclass his, in both reactions and traveling speed. He'll be dead before he can react, which is where even the T-Vo plan falls short.
In this sense, does SS have any of the above? When has he used any of it in battle? I agree with the traveling speed, but Lobo travels at similar speeds across space navigating on his hog. It doesn't mean he fights that quickly.
Originally posted by Dizzle
You misunderstand me. I meant that Superman's best speed and reaction feats are relatively mediocre, when compared to the likes of Silver Surfer and Flash. Vibrating invisible and illusion images don't work on people who move and think much, much faster.
They worked fine on Eradicator and Dominus. I did make a mistake though. Supes wouldn't have to vibrate invisible, he can TVO as well. Traveling speed does not equal fighting speed.
Originally posted by Dizzle
Because we're pulling out every single one of Superman's spontaneously created powers, I WILL argue Surfer to his absolute maximum potential. Which definitely involves Supes dying before he has a chance to pull out either of those options, because he won't have any time to THINK before he was atomized by a star destroying blast that's pumped up with superconcentrated kryptonite radiation.
And hell, if we want to get technical, Surfer can step outside of time as soon as the battle starts and KO Supes at his leisure. Or he can simply vibrate Flash style, as Flash HAS vibrated through Superman before. Punches don't do much when they don't hit anything.
I have no problem with you using SS maximum potential at all. I just hope you accept the same from Superman when used in the same way. SS doesn't just step out of time, since we are there, then a time/space shattering punch should take care of that rather easily. Supes can vibrate through SS as well and we know internally, the guy is vulnerable, especially if running low on PC.
Originally posted by Dizzle
I'd still also like a good explanation as to how Torquasm Vo works. If it works through willpower or mental strength... Well, Surfer resisted the mind gem. If it really bends reality, then he can always fall back on the speedblitz option, but quite frankly, it seems to be a very JLAKMC kind of thing to do. 😛
Like I said earlier, Thanos owned SS pretty easily using mental powers right before the IG happened. Superman projecting the billions of beings dying due to SS being a herald WILL down the guy pretty quick.
Check the Supes respect forum, I've put up some stuff on it before. Supes using it near instantly, morphing reality, blocking telepathy..etc. While admittedly cool in some ways, it's also as stupid as the "power cosmic" on the plot device scale. Yep. I myself have mixed feelings on it.
If you have any more specific questions about Tvo, shoot me a pm, and I'll try to get you info/scans on it. I know it's tough to get reliable info on the web as it's one of Supermans least written about abilities.
Just to add some points to what is turning out to be a very civil and informative debate ( thanks to Avalonofthewind, Dizzle, and others):
With the use of the power cosmic in question in DC or a neutral universe, perhaps the Surfer can analyze Superman's body/power to see how it works. Here he does that to the Hulk and it actually seems like he is studding the Hulk instead of just have automatic knowledge from the power cosmic.
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/Silver_Surfer_1997_125_15.jpg
Also he can see the entire EM spectrum so he might be able to see what energy is in Superman's body.
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/Silver_Surfer_037-02.jpg
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/Silver_Surfer_037-03.jpg
Causes Jack of Hearts pain fairly easily suggesting that the Surfer might be able to have a degree of control over beings with a great deal of internal energy
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/Cosmic_Powers_Unlimited_03_21.jpg
And if he's really in trouble he could always take a breather in the Microverse 😖hifty:
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/GalactusTheDevourer2-19a.jpg
And if you consider the forces inside the heart of a sun, then the Surfer flying though it is pretty impressive, imo.
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/Silver_Surfer_v3_134p05.jpg
Honestly as both Superman and Surfer have flown through or near black holes they should be practically invulnerable.
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/ss_enslavers_06.jpg
Information is power Kahn. I do want to make it as informative as possilbe, I'm not interested in a flamefest. Nice stuff on SS. I'll put up some interesting Supes stuff.
Here is his INSANE durability.
Superman using his body to manage tesseracts which would easily destroy earth. Apparently, even being in pieces doesn't phase the man of steel! 😆
And he's back together again. He somehow repaired time/space rips in space with his body. One of Supes more....interesting feats...
Superman sucks Dominus into a psychic arena of his choosing using Torquasm Vo. One of his lesser used abilities. It's borderline reality control. Notice that he makes it so Dominus CAN'T create effective kryptonite.
Superman resists actual reality control and adapts to it on the fly...
He even turns into Kingdom come Superman and Superman 1M while fighting.
Once again making Kryptonite useless.
I think Superman's Torquasm Vo is working. I sure have one hell of a headache after looking at those scans 😑
I wonder why DC keeps amping up Superman like this. I mean soon he'll be at or near his pre-crisis level with the accompanying assortment of bizarre powers and then they'll just have to de-power the character again.
and that's what i was trying to say earlier, sans scans. nothing ss can do is new. supes has overcome at some point everything ss has to throw. gog put k-nite in his BLOODSTREAM! pc blasts won't cut it, unless supes is weakened. red sun rad could do it eventually. k-nite (IF he can discern the weakness) could do it eventually. but it would take a long time. ss COULD win that way, by using these powers to weaken him but it wouldn't be easy.
as for manipulating supes field -- maybe he could dizzle. it is a BIO field though, which imo would be much more difficult for him to manipulate. i mentioned a few times he had trouble manipulating orgainic matter. it's possible the field may be a tougher nut to crack than simply waving it away. could he? maybe. or maybe it would take him some time to do it, again, prolonging the fight. during which supes may be able to take the fight to the sun to replenish.
as for ss attacking before supes knows about it -- i find it very unlikely. supes speed is hardly inconsequential -- multiples of lightspeed is NOT slow. he also thinks and reacts at enormous speeds and unlike ss has LOADS of COMBAT speed feats -- something ss is SORELY lacking for all his appearances.
avy did a great job of illustrating the power of t-vo. with it operating at full power, i see no reason why supes couldn't win this fight almost every time. without it, ss takes majority but supes CAN still win.
Not to mention T Vo really worked on Erads because it was a kryptonian custom in fighting that way. SS won't feel the same way about that...........soul vision is retarded🙂
SS still for the win...supes vision big deal, ss has powers like that in spades, Tvo is great if thats how SS would handle him and it probably wouldn't be..............................yeah SS 4 the majority.
Originally posted by GODSCRIBE
yes, but it will weaken him. and really that all Norrin needs.Or he just traps superman in the board.
i tend to agree with the former -- the board thing was still ridiculous imo . . .
oh, and for those wh assume ss can simply manipulate his shields, don't forget that quasar with the q-bands SEEMED to have an upper hand on ss in a battle they had. ss didn't seem to be able to control the q-band energy at will. the point? ss doesn't and can't simply control all forms of enery at a whim. some require far more effort to gain control over.
Originally posted by leonidas
i tend to agree with the former -- the board thing was still ridiculous imo . . .oh, and for those wh assume ss can simply manipulate his shields, don't forget that quasar with the q-bands SEEMED to have an upper hand on ss in a battle they had. ss didn't seem to be able to control the q-band energy at will. the point? ss doesn't and can't simply control all forms of enery at a whim. some require far more effort to gain control over.
Qbands also had Quasar controlling them so its wasn't just a passive energy force......................
LOL this fight is really about who can post the most ridiculous feats first🙂 I mean SS and SM are HUGE jobbers and they always seem to find just the right power to fit the plot lol🙂
Actually when these 2 guys start to fight Chuck Norris comes in and Round House Kicks which restarts the universe in a big bang the End!
