Originally posted by GM Nebaris
KOTOR:
1. Darth Revan.
2. Darth Sion.
3. Darth Nihilus.
4. Darth Traya.
5. The Jedi Exile.
6. Darth Malak.
7. Bastilla Shan.
8. Darth Bandon.
9. Visas Marr.
10. Jolee Bindo.
Who was the Exile stronger than?
He only beat Nihilus because he was immune to his force drain and was a hole in the force, thus when Nihilus attempted to force drain him, it weakened him because there was nothing to drain, or the death of the force so to speak. There was also the fact that Nihilus kind of relied on his force drain technique, and without it he wasn't too impressive.
He only beat Sion because Sion couldn't handle how Traya (who he loved very much, worshipped as an idol in fact) loved the Exile more then anything in the world, and thus lost the will to live. it's pretty clear that The Exile had no way in beating him.
He only beat Traya because Traya loved him more than anything in the world and wanted him to live (kind of like Vader with Luke).
Originally posted by GM Nebaris
Sidious has nothing on Sion. What has he ever done that is on par wit Sion being able to make himself physically invincible.
Once again, I ask you not to tell me who is superior to whom based on your own assumptions and opinions. You must provide fact.
What you're doing now is comparing the feats between the two and judging, based on your own bias. It doesn't work with me.
Well sorry, but supplying random quotes from random people who nobody knows doesn't quite work with me. Not only do you fail to realise that relying on quotes is very bad in debates for a number of reasons, but you also fail to supply the quote in a way that I can understand the context that said quote was given in. In short, you need to consider how genuine the quote is, how reliable the source is, the context that the quote is used in and you have also seemed to ignore the fact that quotes are often contradicted and retconned. I'll give you an example. You and Lightsnake always used to claim that Sidious was the most powerful because for one thing, the NEC claims this. I supplied the perfect counter. Firstly, the quote was given so casually and vaguely that it was hard to determine how credible the quote was. Secondly, the NEC was written from an in-universe perception, which seriously undermines the credibility of the quote and undermines your whole argument.
Originally posted by GM Nebaris
Well sorry, but supplying random quotes from random people who nobody knows doesn't quite work with me. Not only do you fail to realise that relying on quotes is very bad in debates for a number of reasons, but you also fail to supply the quote in a way that I can understand the context that said quote was given in. In short, you need to consider how genuine the quote is, how reliable the source is, the context that the quote is used in and you have also seemed to ignore the fact that quotes are often contradicted and retconned. I'll give you an example. You and Lightsnake always used to claim that Sidious was the most powerful because for one thing, the NEC claims this. I supplied the perfect counter. Firstly, the quote was given so casually and vaguely that it was hard to determine how credible the quote was. Secondly, the NEC was written from an in-universe perception, which seriously undermines the credibility of the quote and undermines your whole argument.
What the hell ? This place has truly reached a new low.
What the hell ? This place has truly reached a new low.
Not as a whole.
GM Nebaris here is a person who (not unlike Nai himself, and most likely a very worse case) passes off his personal opinion as if it were apparent law - without the presence of evidence or facts. At least Nai provides the bare minimum...
He is also proven to be quite the liar. He stated that Lucas claimed that Mace Windu "is more powerful than Palpatine", and yet would not provide the quote from whence that claim originated. My guess is that he lied (or as he puts it - "logically deduced"😉 that Lucas said "Mace is more powerful than Palpatine".
But, don't worry. It's not quite as effective as he thinks.
As for you, GM -
Well sorry, but supplying random quotes from random people who nobody knows doesn't quite work with me.
These "random quotes" are lines and statements made directly from characters or passages from the works of these "random people" - which are popular Star Wars EU authors, such as Timothy Zahn, Tom Veitch, or Kevin J. Anderson.
For future reference, in the EU, if a line or statement is not rebuked or retconned by Lucas or LFL - or directly contradicted by another source (which doesn't include you) - then it is to be treated as fact until such a time where it is remedied.
Not only do you fail to realise that relying on quotes is very bad in debates for a number of reasons, but you also fail to supply the quote in a way that I can understand the context that said quote was given in.
I would appreciate it if you didn't lecture me on context. You're the one who actually manipulates the quotes provided by higher authorities and pass it off as something that it isn't. For example, the statement that Lucas made when "Mace overpowered Palpatine".
In short, you need to consider how genuine the quote is, how reliable the source is, the context that the quote is used in
I know very well what context it was used in and how genuine it is. The validity of the quote isn't in question unless another source directly contradicts it or it is retconned by LFL.
and you have also seemed to ignore the fact that quotes are often contradicted and retconned.
Some quotes are. Not all. Meaning the ones that aren't are still valid and ripe to be used in debates such as these.
I'll give you an example. You and Lightsnake always used to claim that Sidious was the most powerful because for one thing, the NEC claims this.
The New Essential Chronology and all of its contents were "LFL approved". It is an accurate source.
I supplied the perfect counter.
I must have missed it, then.
Firstly, the quote was given so casually and vaguely that it was hard to determine how credible the quote was.
"Yoda was unable to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history."
That was the exact quote, if I recall, word-for-word. It wasn't casual, nor was it vague. Nai and Illustrious both indicated that this use of the word "power" was vague. It wasn't. Palpatine's "political power" had no bearing on the fight - especially when the fight itself was a battle to the death and not a lecture in the Senate.
Secondly, the NEC was written from an in-universe perception
In-universe perceptions are necessary.
which seriously undermines the credibility of the quote and undermines your whole argument.
Please be so kind as to point out how it does.
Firstly, Escape, there seems to be a huge misunderstanding between us. You seem to think that I got my quote in regards to mace defeating Palpatine because he was more powerful from the ROTS dvd, or have somehow interpreted 'overpowering' to mean being more powerful. This is not the case. I got the quote from a completely different interview, and as I have said before, I will supply the exact quote and source when I am able to find it.
Secondly, I gathered that you seem to think that the only way to question the validity of a quote is to question the canonicity of it. That is completely untrue. Read my previous post more carefully.
Thirdly, the fact that the NEC was written from an in-universe perspective means that the quote loses most of its credibility. If it was written from an out-of-universe perception, then the quote would hold more credibility.
Originally posted by GM Nebaris
Firstly, Escape, there seems to be a huge misunderstanding between us. You seem to think that I got my quote in regards to mace defeating Palpatine because he was more powerful from the ROTS dvd, or have somehow interpreted 'overpowering' to mean being more powerful. This is not the case. I got the quote from a completely different interview, and as I have said before, I will supply the exact quote and source when I am able to find it.Secondly, I gathered that you seem to think that the only way to question the validity of a quote is to question the canonicity of it. That is completely untrue. Read my previous post more carefully.
Thirdly, the fact that the NEC was written from an in-universe perspective means that the quote loses most of its credibility. If it was written from an out-of-universe perception, then the quote would hold more credibility.
1. Dont ever use anything in a debate, that you havent already got well documented. You simply saying that the quote is true, isnt sufficient.
2. I see what your saying. An out-of-universe quote from an authority figure is the best kind of proof, however an in-universe quote still trumps an opinion because it is from the actual material whereas your opinion is not.
3. See above.
And dont insult Escape, he is a very intelligent individual, who has been here far longer than you, and is well-respected by alot of people including me.
Originally posted by GM Nebaris
Dude, he knows as well as everybody that when I make the odd remark, it is just banter. Our insults (yes, he insults me too, just more subtly) tend to stay in the thread that we are debating in. I too respect him, and have even admitted that he is currently probably the second best debater here.
I seem to recall you flinging childish insults at him in one of these threads, but yeah a bit of banter is natural in a debate.
Don't confuse me with Nai, Nebaris. I don't forcibly imply that you're an idiot, nor do I imply that you're a poor debator.
But, in these cases, you have yet to offer your proof, and instead use the tactic of "because I say so". You say that Scion's feats are vastly superior to Sidious's, but you've yet to tell why. You say that Mace is superior to Yoda, but you've yet to tell why.
Start telling us why, and we'll take you seriously. Which, believe me, you aren't.
It's Sion by the way. And being able to hold your body together and thus withstand any physical attack is far greater then anything Sidious can do imo, and also limits the ways in which he can actually hurt and possibly kill Sion. And I know that palpatine could possibly do morichro pr a force drain or something, but the fact that Sion is able to hold his body together with his anger chanelled by the dark side of the force leads me to believe that his will is so strong that he would be able to resist pretty much anything that Sidious can throw at him. You can also see how much of a badass he is in a couple of cutscenes, and his ferociousness, physical strength and agility was immense.