^hmmm which logical fallacy is that? Because A... Nevermind I'm sure you know it..Next
Apparently you have no understanding of the benefits that having access to the Force can give someone in the context of a lightsaber battle.
I already listed just three, and I'm sure there are more:
Precognition ("He sees things before they happen," etc. Even untrained, TPM Anakin had precognition. Ulic, in his fight against Sylvar, didn't and he still held his own)
Increased speed (TPM again. Ulic didn't have this and still held his own.)
Increased strength (many sources, among them Dooku in ROTS. Ulic didn't have this... etc.)
Those are just three I can name off the top of my head. Ulic without those benefits held his own someone who did have them. Ergo, Ulic with those benefits is even better. QED.
^Sufficient to whom or what? You saw all the PT and OT characters do it, what's your point, how is that a testament of Ulic's force mastery? Next.
Actually, we saw no PT characters save for Qui-Gon Jinn do it. It was described (as Ulic died in Redemption) as a technique only Jedi Masters could accomplish. Ulic gained back his access to the Force to do this. His mastery of the Force is unquestionable.
^Just because you say it doesn't make it so. You repeatedly claim your argument proves something and I claim it doesn't.. Your only response to this is "Youre wrong" or "Youre thickheaded". Kinky..
Except the onus is on you to prove my argument incorrect or to supply a counterargument. You've not done so except for pissing and moaning about how it "doesn't prove anything" or it's "just my opinion" without applying any evidence or reasoning for such statements.
Your conclusion is based on your opinion, and not a logical argument. Just because you call it a logical argument doesn't make it so.
Turning it back around on you (as it should be), prove that it's just my opinion. Just because you can hold the floor (Filibuster) and spout all day long that my argument isn't logical doesn't make it so, Goebbels.
Originally posted by IKC
Apparently you have no understanding of the benefits that having access to the Force can give someone in the context of a lightsaber battle.I already listed just three, and I'm sure there are more:
Precognition ("He sees things before they happen," etc. Even untrained, TPM Anakin had precognition. Ulic, in his fight against Sylvar, didn't and he still held his own)
Increased speed (TPM again. Ulic didn't have this and still held his own.)
Increased strength (many sources, among them Dooku in ROTS. Ulic didn't have this... etc.)
Those are just three I can name off the top of my head. Ulic without those benefits held his own someone who did have them. Ergo, Ulic with those benefits is even better. QED.
Actually, we saw no PT characters save for Qui-Gon Jinn do it. It was described (as Ulic died in Redemption) as a technique only Jedi Masters could accomplish. Ulic gained back his access to the Force to do this. His mastery of the Force is unquestionable.
Except the onus is on you to prove my argument incorrect or to supply a counterargument. You've not done so except for pissing and moaning about how it "doesn't prove anything" or it's "just my opinion" without applying any evidence or reasoning for such statements.
Turning it back around on you (as it should be), prove that it's just my opinion. Just because you can hold the floor (Filibuster) and spout all day long that my argument isn't logical doesn't make it so, Goebbels.
Oy...
Personal Attacks-Logical Fallacy. Try again.
People who disappear with the force....Luke, Yoda, Obiwan, Qui Gonn, Vader, etc..
You call it pissing and moaning I call it telling you your argument doesn't prove Ulic>Yoda. You saying it doesn't make it so "goebbels". Yoda was also the best of the best. You saying just because Ulic couldn't use the force and had control of his saber meaning he would be exponentially as powerful with the force is nothing but speculation but a silly claim on your part. It's on you to prove his 'exponentially increasing power' or whatever nonsense you were talking about. That's like saying if Kun didn't die prematurely he would become a force god, or if Luke lived another 100 years he would rival Ragnos, they are all unproven claims and its on you to prove up. So far you've done nothing but list feats and through out your "i'm right you're wrong" logic mixed in with logical fallacies.. So I say again..
OY..
Originally posted by Wesker
- Environment.
I see the Wookies having some nice advantage there. They live on a world filled with trees. Of course they usually don't leave the top of the trees often but in fact there is this nifty hrrtayyk ceremony which includes a nice trip to the Shadowlands, learning survival techniques, construct traps, robes and other stuff out of plants and personally hunt down a Katarn. And this is usually done around the age of 12.
- Warriors on both sides.
Again the wookies have most advantages on their side. They have the superior technologie (bowcasters, explosives), do pocess the greater physical strength and aren't shabby in melee combat either (which is part of their tradition).
The Krath (as far as I see) don't get their war droids and are fighting against enemies who are superior in technology, physical strength and - given the jungle world - superior orientation / movement abilities as well as superior use of the enviroment.
And they a virtually a Dark Side sect with all persons in it being either non-force-users or quite lower tier compared to Aleema and Satal. I really don't see them surviving a fight with the Wookies unless some slave raids turn you into the uber-combatant.
- Abilities of generals AS generals.
I will type my thoughts of the generals general abilities as well as of their general general abilities here. 😛
Yoda:
- 900 years of experience
- tons of wisdom
- obviously able to use guerilla tactics (small team combat) and create traps (as seen on Kashyyk in ROTS)
- could most likely create devastating effects on the battle field alone (attack on Coruscant; his fighting style / force control / speed)
- might very well be able to use battle meditation (we have multiple examples of PT Jedi doing this: Oppo Rancisis, Vima-Da-Boda, Yarael Poof, Joru(u)s C'baoth, possibly Qui-Gon in the break in the duel against Maul in TPM - seems to be quite more common than in TOTJ times). That would at least explain why he didn't participate in the battle on Kashyyyk actively.
- unquestioned Grandmaster of the Jedi Order (as far as we see best force user / duellist of the PT era)
Aleema:
- nice Dark Side witch (in one of the TOTJ comics she's instakilling another person literally vaporizing the skin)
- capable of create massive illusions
- not the best leader you can have
Ulic:
- lightsaber prodigy
- didn't show any uber force powers
- quite capable as military leader but not the greatest (failing to attack Coruscant with Krath and Mandalore + Mandalorians as backup when the second took 1/3 of the entire Republics forces + a great part of the Jedi Order + Revan as military genious to get defeated)
Conclusion:
Even if Aleema can do pretty well by creating illusions that might be either get countered by Yoda using battle meditation or the multiple advantages on the Wookies' side due to the enviroment (or both). I guess the Wookies would be able to decimate the Krath forces pretty well with hit-and-run attacks, use of superior weapons and laying traps in the jungle.
Ulic and Aleema are the real threat here but they will still die getting jumped by a team of Wookies when one of them carries Yoda on his back.
Firstly people like Kun and Ulic were saber prodigys in their era which was not as great as the PT era (and if you don't agree with this I will explain how on my next post, there are plenty of examples of this). They could not touch saber phenomenoms like Mace Windu and Yoda. Kun was not even the greatest saber duelist of his era. I'm sorry to have to break it to you but Vodo was. Kun was only able to win by using the cutting power of his saber against Vodo's stick. If Vodo was using a lightsaber it would have been a completely different story. We see in the duel that no matter what Kun threw at him, Vodo was able to defend against him pretty easily. And not to mention that Kun was using a technique completely foreign to Vodo. There is no evidence that Kun was anything near spectacular with a saber like Yoda. Wow he was Vodo's best student ever. Zomg as you like to say, Yoda had been mastering his saber style for over 900 years. He was on the same level as people like Windu (who created the most deadly lightsaber form) and his mastery of the force enabled him to appear to be in as good shape as someone in their mid 20s. And Ulic was not even as good as Kun. He was at best the 3rd greatest duelist in his crap era.
Originally posted by thetruepower
Firstly people like Kun and Ulic were saber prodigys in their era which was not as great as the PT era (and if you don't agree with this I will explain how on my next post, there are plenty of examples of this). They could not touch saber phenomenoms like Mace Windu and Yoda. Kun was not even the greatest saber duelist of his era. I'm sorry to have to break it to you but Vodo was. Kun was only able to win by using the cutting power of his saber against Vodo's stick. If Vodo was using a lightsaber it would have been a completely different story. We see in the duel that no matter what Kun threw at him, Vodo was able to defend against him pretty easily. And not to mention that Kun was using a technique completely foreign to Vodo. There is no evidence that Kun was anything near spectacular with a saber like Yoda. Wow he was Vodo's best student ever. Zomg as you like to say, Yoda had been mastering his saber style for over 900 years. He was on the same level as people like Windu (who created the most deadly lightsaber form) and his mastery of the force enabled him to appear to be in as good shape as someone in their mid 20s. And Ulic was not even as good as Kun. He was at best the 3rd greatest duelist in his crap era.
1) Where is the proof that it not as great as the PT era? A relatively peaceful time, does not allow Jedi to hone their saber skills, especially since the Sith were long believe to be dead.
2) So now Mace and Yoda are the best duelist of all time? I don't think so, you can argue with what Lucas said about the PT era being the "Golden Age of the Jedi" however, the concept completely differs from the "Golden Age of the Sith," In the Sith, their Golden Age is when they achieve their peak power, and their most powerful figures arise ie Ragnos, Sadow. The Golden Age of the Jedi, mean the Jedi eliminate the Sith, as well as have relative peace throughout the galaxy. This quite simply means, that the Jedi will obviously become more diplomatic and political, losing their "warlike" abilites. Mace and Yoda, were perhaps some of the most powerful Jedi to have existed, however they do not reach the level of Kun and Ulic, who spent their life battling Jedi.
3) Kun inferior to Vodo? Unlikely, consider Kun was merely toying with Vodo the entire fight, and Vodo was reduced to nothing but defending against Kun's attacks, until finally Kun applies his actual power and the next thing we know, he's dead. Notice how Vodo, entered the Senate, with the intention to stop Kun, if he felt that his skills with the stick were unable to conquer Kun, he would not have entered the Senate with the stick, Ergo Vodo was outmatched and outperformed.
4) Vaapad, itself was not a well known technique, Makashi was barely praticed within the Jedi. This simply means, "foreign" does not neccesarrily mean they were superior, but were owned because they didn't know how to defend against it. That makes no sense, and thats what your implying. Zomg Yoda started honing his skills with a lightsaber in his mother's womb now? So Mace redeveloping the lost form of Juyo is now officially "inventing" it?
5) Notice how you say appears, so the force is known to give prolonged life and youthful looks. Yet what do you consider Kun? how old is he? Remeber also the Dark Side of the force scars your image, making you look older and more "deadlike"
6) You are operating on complete speculation, "If Vodo used a lightsaber it would be different," why would it be? Why do you constantly degrade characters that you instinctively dislike? I can just as easily say, ye the different story is...Vodo gets pwned 10 times faster.
7) Again i advise you, comment and post your opinion as you will, but note that noone will ever agree with you, in that entire post you have said nothing with proof, nothing to back it up. Consider that i don't need to prove anything to you, if you would have bother to research on the older threads, you'll find various scans where Kun curbstomped not only Vodo but the Jedi Masters of his Era.
Originally posted by Deception
1) Where is the proof that it not as great as the PT era? A relatively peaceful time, does not allow Jedi to hone their saber skills, especially since the Sith were long believe to be dead.2) So now Mace and Yoda are the best duelist of all time? I don't think so, you can argue with what Lucas said about the PT era being the "Golden Age of the Jedi" however, the concept completely differs from the "Golden Age of the Sith," In the Sith, their Golden Age is when they achieve their peak power, and their most powerful figures arise ie Ragnos, Sadow. The Golden Age of the Jedi, mean the Jedi eliminate the Sith, as well as have relative peace throughout the galaxy. This quite simply means, that the Jedi will obviously become more diplomatic and political, losing their "warlike" abilites. Mace and Yoda, were perhaps some of the most powerful Jedi to have existed, however they do not reach the level of Kun and Ulic, who spent their life battling Jedi.
3) Kun inferior to Vodo? Unlikely, consider Kun was merely toying with Vodo the entire fight, and Vodo was reduced to nothing but defending against Kun's attacks, until finally Kun applies his actual power and the next thing we know, he's dead. Notice how Vodo, entered the Senate, with the intention to stop Kun, if he felt that his skills with the stick were unable to conquer Kun, he would not have entered the Senate with the stick, Ergo Vodo was outmatched and outperformed.
4) Vaapad, itself was not a well known technique, Makashi was barely praticed within the Jedi. This simply means, "foreign" does not neccesarrily mean they were superior, but were owned because they didn't know how to defend against it. That makes no sense, and thats what your implying. Zomg Yoda started honing his skills with a lightsaber in his mother's womb now? So Mace redeveloping the lost form of Juyo is now officially "inventing" it?
5) Notice how you say appears, so the force is known to give prolonged life and youthful looks. Yet what do you consider Kun? how old is he? Remeber also the Dark Side of the force scars your image, making you look older and more "deadlike"
6) You are operating on complete speculation, "If Vodo used a lightsaber it would be different," why would it be? Why do you constantly degrade characters that you instinctively dislike? I can just as easily say, ye the different story is...Vodo gets pwned 10 times faster.
7) Again i advise you, comment and post your opinion as you will, but note that noone will ever agree with you, in that entire post you have said nothing with proof, nothing to back it up. Consider that i don't need to prove anything to you, if you would have bother to research on the older threads, you'll find various scans where Kun curbstomped not only Vodo but the Jedi Masters of his Era.
1) We see a well respected jedi knight getting compeltely owned by a few small time space pirates (who BTW use weapons enferior to the weapons of mercenaries etc. in the PT era). We see one of the greatest jedi masters of the time getting killed by a droid. Do I need to go on?
2) I did not say "Golden age of the jedi" and neither did GL. He said that the PT era was "The Golden Age of saber dueling". We see phenomenons such as Yoda.
3) You keep on excluding the fact that Kun was never able to outduel him or get the upperhand. He was only able to break through his stick. Basically he only lost because he was fighting with a disadvantaged weapon. So you can ponder all you want into why Vodo used his stick, but the facts are that Kun was never able to get the upperhand until he was able to break his stick which doesn't at all say that Kun was a better duelist.
4) You seem to have misunderstood my point completely and I don't know what the hell you are talking about so try to read carefully what I said.
5) I am going to ignore this.
6) It would be different because Kun would not have been able to use his saber to break through Kun's saber.
7) I have read the comic where Kun kills Vodo repeatedly and it is clear that Vodo was the better duelist. Kun was only able to kill Odun Urr as easily as he did because Odun Urr was way too old. Apart from those, I don't remember him killing any other jedi masters.
Deception, ignore Numan's posts, please. You could argue with him forever.
Second, tdtd, IKC had valid points and instead of addressing them, you pissed and moaned but couldn't offer a valid counterargument.
Third, I'd like to see something a bit more conclusive that Yoda can use battle meditation AND that he can counter and/or recognize mass force illusions. And I wouldn't call what happened on Kashyyk a "trap". If anything, the Clones and Wookiees were dug in in some WWI battle formation and then leapt up and got shot down like morons. I'd hardly call that a battle strategy worth giving due credit to.
Tme to watch the Battle of Kashyyk agan. And Wesker how do you want me to address those points? By providing Yoda's feats? I never said his points weren't valid, I said his intention was to show that Ulic was superor to Yoda and his points don't do that, they offer feats and illogical fallacies such as "If he can do this, then he can definitely do this". Yea, Yoda was such a master of the force that if joined the darkside he would be invincible.. Right...
Anyways not sure if Yoda had battle precog or if it was on level with Revan but he would be a competent general as opposed to Aleema.
You can't just piss and moan when someone makes an argument if you don't have a counter argument, tdtd. Anyone can say IKC is wrong; it takes a real debator to come out with some kind of well-thought out argument to put weight behind the claim. Meanwhile, he's done a good job of convincing me of his stance. That's what matters in the end.
I'm offering an argument. If he can do A, he can definitely do B= is an illogical fallacy if there is no basis for it. Ulic was never to have shown uber force powers, while Yoda was a force master. The only thing Ulic has is his "lightsaber prodigy" title, which by no means puts him above Yoda. I can also sit there and say Yoda was unrivaled and unmatched in both force powers and saber combat, and was never defeated(no he didn't lose to Sidious), but would that necessarily put him above Ulic? Not necessarily but I would put him above Ulic in force mastery any day, as he's displayed it while Ulic has not.
Originally posted by Wesker
*Ignores Numan's idiocy*Neither here nor there, anyways. This thread is about the battles. In a war between four thousand in a jungle, how uber the generals are in personal combat isn't really a good point. I want to focus more on the tactics and warriors themselves.
Understood
Originally posted by DeceptionOriginally posted by Wesker
Third, I'd like to see something a bit more conclusive that Yoda can use battle meditation AND that he can counter and/or recognize mass force illusions. And I wouldn't call what happened on Kashyyk a "trap". If anything, the Clones and Wookiees were dug in in some WWI battle formation and then leapt up and got shot down like morons. I'd hardly call that a battle strategy worth giving due credit to. [/B]Yoda is directly stated to be a user of battle meditation in the Essential Chronology / Republic comics or the ROTS novel. At least - seeing tha basically everbody on the Council is able to use it I don't see Yoda being the only one not being able to do so.
For the illusions: I guess if barely trained Nomi Sunrider can recognize them the 900 year old Grandmaster of the Jedi order who had a library filled with knowledge (including Sith holocrons) should be able to do the same thing.And the battle on Kashyyyk ? If you'd come across the "Hidden Enemy" comics (Republic 81-83):
A 501st Clone Trooper even said that this battle was a "suicide mission" before Yoda arrived.
Yoda had chosen the battle of the place to hinder the enemies (which had to move through / over water) and give the Republic forces some air support.
Then he placed the main force on the beach covered in trenches, he had snipers sitting in the trees and he had Wookies with their "swing from the cliff and put explosives on the tank" tactics. When all CIS forces joined the battle he did sent Luminare to do an attack on their flank and Vos across the lagoon to cut off the CIS reinforcements.
Actually Yoda did win that battle pretty much on his own until order 66 arrived. Where did you get the impression that they were "shot down like morons" ? They fought an army which outnumbered them 5 to 1 and still they did win.[quote]
Second, tdtd, IKC had valid points and instead of addressing them, you pissed and moaned but couldn't offer a valid counterargument.
Well...if you're talking about the Yoda vs. Ulic argument you are right. But still IKC is using assumptions to proof other assumptions:
a) Ulic stalemated Kun:
We don't know how that battle would have went if it wouldn't have been interrupted by Ragnos. If anything I guess Kun would have won since he got the title of the Dark Lord meaning that in this time he was the strongest.
b) Kun could have defeated Vodo at that point already:
This is an assumption. We know that he couldn't have done that using his normal weapon right before as Vodo disarmed him and Kun needed 2 weapons to break Vodo's staff. Why should he be able to "curpstomb" Vodo at this point ? He couldn't even curbstomp Ulic.
c) Vodo is compareable / superior to Vodo:
And the next assumption. They both basically lived in an equally peaceful time period with the little exception that Yoda has 300 years of additional experience compared to Vodo and unlike the TOTJ era Jedi was trained from infancy on. If anything Yoda is superior to Vodo.
And now IKC turns that into:
Ulic = or slightly < Kun in sheer lightsaber combat
Kun > Vodo
Vodo > or = Yoda
therefore Ulic > Yoda
That is based on so many unknowns (Ulic's strength compared to Exar, Vodo's compared to Yoda's) that I wouldn't call that "valid argument". Not even talking about the A = B, B > C, C > D therefore A > D idea he's presenting.
On the same level I could say "because Ulic has never shown any considerable force powers Yoda would curbstomp him without even using his lightsaber". That doesn't work.
I'd like to see how Ulic is going to hit the green muppet who was stated in Shadowhunter to be able to dodge lightsaber attacks from Depa Billaba (Vaapad Master nearly on Mace's level) + Saesee Tiin + another Jedi "effortless" and it seems as if he had moved less than a metre. This being done without using his lightsaber.