Originally posted by thetruepower
You're not on my level Illustrious. All you do is ignore what I say so there is no reason for me to take you seriously.
Says the person who made X number of accounts, and constantly establishes his opinion as fact. Sorry this isn't one of your dreams Numan. You are unwanted, so don't go about insulting everyone.
Originally posted by IKC
Oh, she never used that knowledge? That's why she was hanging out with Odan-Urr, the oldest Jedi Master we can name, during the Sith War, right? That's why he taught her the useful technique of blinding someone to the Force, right?
That's why Kyle Katarn used the same technique without any training against Jerec, right ?
Yes, you can have "data" from the start of the Jedi Order on Coruscant. So what comprises this mysterious "data," Nai? May I ask how that data remained "intact" during the first rule of the Sith, a thousand years before the PT?
May I ask you when the Sith did rule Coruscant ?
Maybe you should read the comics next time. Narration and dialogue indicate that the best efforts of the Jedi to rescue the knowledge stored before the supernovae impact weren't enough."A thousand years of Jedi history must be packed and rescued in only a few hours. They have no time to sort or sift out the most precious items. They must take everything, and hurry... and hope." - Narrator
"The hopeless preparations have a devastating effect on those Jedi who must witness the evacuation." - Narrator
"The emergency efforts of all the Jedi can barely scratch the surface of the knowledge entombed on Ossus." -Narrator
"Not enough. Given an entire year we could not have salvaged enough. The rest will be lost forever." - Tott Doneeta
I hope I've made it glaringly obvious even to you, Nai. Most if not all of the valuable knowledge stored on Ossus was destroyed in the shockwave of the ten supernovae that consumed the planet.
Q. E. D.
You still didn't understand it. All knowledge which was taught to the TOTJ Jedi survived the destruction of Ossus because still people posessed the knowledge and could teach it to later generations. Of course they had 1,000 years of Jedi knowledge stored their. But in the same time they had 21,000 years of Jedi knowledge stored on Coruscant and added another 4,000 years after the destruction of Ossus. See what I mean ?
Pre-BOD Jedi are not the PT Jedi.
The Jedi Archieves and the temple remained unchanged.
Wrong, you're making a strawman argument again. It is an assumption based on Kun's known capabilities at that point in time and has little to nothing to do with Vodo.
Kun's only known abilities for this time are that he was on par with Ulic in terms of lightsaber combat and that he can blast some things up with an amulet. Period.
Not a martial time, huh? I guess that's why I have these:Not a martial time, huh? I guess the Battle of Basilisk referenced here by the omniscient narrator never happened.
Not a martial time, huh? Why, then, is Qrrrl Toq a "fearless warrior?" Why does he construct Jedi armor if it's not a martial time?
Not a martial time, huh? I guess then that the Vultar Cataclysm and Gank Massacres referenced here didn't happen either!
Not a martial time, huh? I guess the Great Droid Revolution referenced here didn't happen either!
This isn't Star Wars According to Nai. You have been proven wrong. Sit down.
I was talking about the 1,000 years pre-TOTJ. The Battle of Basilisk was part of the Great Sith War against Kun. Qrrl Toq did only fight at the Nadd uprising and the Great Sith War. The Vultar Cataclysm was a bunch of Dark Jedi blowing theirselves into nothingness so all you have is one year of fighting against droids. And you forgot the Third Shism (some fighting on Coruscant before the Vultar Cataclysm). Martial time period ?
Compared to the thousands years before the PT which include:
- the Battles on Ruusan (you can exclude them)
- the Melida/Daan Civil War (21 battles in 94 BBY, see Jedi Apprentice: Defenders of the Death)
- the Mandalorian Civil War (60-34 BBY, ended by the Jedi with the Battle of Galindraan)
- the Stark Hyperspace War (44 BBY - 6 battles)
- the Yinchorri Uprising (32 BBY - see Jedi Council: Acts of War)
That followed by the Clone Wars with at least 98 descriped battles involving Jedi. But pre-TOTJ and TOTJ time period are more martial ?
It's not my fault that your attention span is apparently deficient and it doesn't allow you to read the relevant sections of a relatively short thread. Vodo can beat Yoda, we have established it in said thread.
What relevant sections. Look at your arguments:
- Vodo comes from a more martial time period (wrong)
- Vodo has shown greater force powers (wrong - did he lift a temple up as Yoda basically did at Ilum ? Did he block Dark Side attacks with his bare hands ? I have this memory where he gets floored by a Sith spirit from the other side of the Galaxy...)
- Vodo has a reach advantage (wow...everybody in the PT can curbstomp Yoda now)
- Vodo has an exosceleton because he is a insectoid being (wow...he will curbstomp everybody).
Somehow you did miss the fact that Vodo was tooled by a lightsaber prodigy with some years of training (at max) while Yoda kept a lightsaber prodigy with 50 years of training (Mace) under his belt as well as 9,999 other Jedi and Count "master of lightsaber vs lightsaber combat refinement style" Dooku with 8 decades of training.
By this logic, everyone and their grandmother could use lightsabers against Jedi with great effect.So, all of a sudden because Nai says so, there's no benefit to having the Force in a lightsaber fight? I guess that precognition wasn't worth much anyway, right? How about that increased speed and strength that one can only achieve by using the Force? Didn't help much?
Pfft. Nice assertion. Groundless, and absurd in the context of the Star Wars mythos, but nice.
I didn't say there was no benefit. But fighting against somebody who doesn't use the force against you it doesn't matter if you can use it or not. All that matters is your real combat skill.
By this logic, he must have been able to conjure his own lightning and he must have been Force gripping people left and right while off-camera.The point remains: he doesn't use offensive Force powers against his opponents. He's not going to pull a lightning bolt out of his ass and chuck it at Ulic.
He does use the force in an offensice way. Period. And Force push is a "defensive force power" now ? Nice to know that.
Sylvar was tapping into the Dark Side inasmuch as she flew into a rage and assaulted him with her lightsaber. Your point that she "wasn't intelligent enough" to attack him with the Force is moot and irrelevant. The question is Ulic's skills with a lightsaber, which are proven out to be incredible given how he handled Sylvar.
It's irrelevant ? Obviously she wasn't using force speed, she wasn't using the force to power her strength up or do anything else. Because in this case Ulic couldn't have won that fight since he wouldn't have been able to counter those abilties. She just freaking out using her anger and got put on her ass. Wow. How many people can beat baseball-bat-lightsaber-swinging-style ROTJ-Luke-in-total-rage ?
Yoda is the superior Force user? Based on what evidence? His Force push? His ability to hop around? I'd like you to actually establish your points with reasoning rather than just asserting them on the basis of nothing whatsoever.
Let's see:
- I haven't seen Ulic force pushing a Sith Lord through a room like a ragdoll.
- I didn't see Ulic deflecting and dissipating force lightning with his bare hands
- I didn't see Ulic lifting a C-9979 transport, or the remains of the temple on Ilum with telekinesis
- I didn't see Ulic doing impossible movements using the force
- I didn't see Ulic falling down several hundret feet in the Senate Chamber, hit the ground, and then walk away as if nothing has happened
- I didn't see Ulic deflecting blasterfire from 6 different Clones effortless (but what I saw was Luminara - a Soresu Master - getting gunned down by 3 Clones on Kashyyyk)
- I didn't see Ulic sensing the death of persons (and identify them individually) across the Galaxy
- I didn't see Ulic using battle meditation
- I didn't see Ulic as a 900 year old being who did spend his entire life studying the force.
In fact: I didn't see Ulic doing anything noticeable with the force.
The Wookies are going to be crippled by Aleema's illusions, given how prone to superstition they are. Ulic's tactical skills are nothing to sneeze at, either. The Krath win more often than not.
Illusions can be countered by battle meditation and I don't see Ulic "Mr.hothead" Quel-Droma pulling enough tactical geniousity out of his ass to rival the guy that has 30 times his age and has commanded more battles than Ulic has even seen - not even talking about the fact that the Wookies are trained to survive and fight in a jungle enviroment in the age of 12...
@Janus:
Hm, one thing I would have to consider in favor of the Krath; since they don't benefit from the foliage cover like the Wookiees might, why not just start a total war tactic? Scortch and burn. This will drive wookiees either out into the open where illusions can be mixed in a full scale melee and tips the balance, or perhaps drive them into fixed locations for bombardment.
Seeing that Yoda can use battle meditation the illusions are pretty useless. Even if the Krath manage to get the Wookies out of the jungle (which would be a hard job) they still don't have weapons able to do significant damage to the temple. Then they have to cross open an open area to the temple (while Wookies with Battle Meditation backup fire at them from a covered position) just to enter melee combat or a shoot-out with 7+ feet Wookies that have superior strength and better weapons.
That's why Kyle Katarn used the same technique without any training against Jerec, right ?
Prove up. The only thing Katarn did to Jerec was cut him in half.
Stop spouting this as if it's fact, there's no evidence on your side.
May I ask you when the Sith did rule Coruscant?
Uh, have you heard of the BoD?
"Once more the Sith shall rule the galaxy?"
"The oppression of the Sith shall never return?"
I think it's quite clear enough even for you.
You still didn't understand it. All knowledge which was taught to the TOTJ Jedi survived the destruction of Ossus because still people posessed the knowledge and could teach it to later generations. Of course they had 1,000 years of Jedi knowledge stored their. But in the same time they had 21,000 years of Jedi knowledge stored on Coruscant and added another 4,000 years after the destruction of Ossus. See what I mean ?
No, you didn't understand it. Even all the living Jedi didn't learn "enough" of the knowledge of Ossus to lessen the loss. There's also the inconvenient (for you) fact that Kun had almost all of the ancient Masters, who would know a great deal of said knowledge, assassinated before Ossus was destroyed.
Tell me Nai, why would they bother trying to save any of it, and why would they piss and moan about it being "lost forever," if they already knew it?
The answer, of course, is because they didn't know it and thus couldn't teach it to anyone.
The only known ancient Master to survive the Sith War was Thon. Technically, Ood also survived, but he was isolated for 4000 years and thus had no impact on the Jedi Order.
How, pray tell, would the Jedi have 21,000 years of Jedi knowledge stored in a temple on Coruscant... that didn't even exist? Ossus was the Jedi capital. There was no centralized temple on Coruscant, Ossus was the closest thing to it. Obviously a temple was built on Coruscant by the time of KOTOR, but its nature is unknown at best.
The Jedi Archieves and the temple remained unchanged.
Says who? You?
Is that why the Episode II visual dictionary states they have just one Sith holocron when last I saw it?
Kun's only known abilities for this time are that he was on par with Ulic in terms of lightsaber combat and that he can blast some things up with an amulet. Period.
And that he's learned a great deal of Sith magic (claiming to have learned "everything" as he knocks Aleema Keto aside). It's more than enough to handle Yoda.
I was talking about the 1,000 years pre-TOTJ. The Battle of Basilisk was part of the Great Sith War against Kun. Qrrl Toq did only fight at the Nadd uprising and the Great Sith War. The Vultar Cataclysm was a bunch of Dark Jedi blowing theirselves into nothingness so all you have is one year of fighting against droids. And you forgot the Third Shism (some fighting on Coruscant before the Vultar Cataclysm). Martial time period ?
The Battle of Basilisk was part of the Sith War? Making things up again, are we? The scan I have which references said battle occurs before Kun ever falls to the Dark Side. How, then, can it be referencing a battle that hadn't yet happened? It isn't. You're wrong. See for yourself, I took it from Dark Lords of the Sith.
Qrrrl Toq only fought in the Nadd uprising at that time? Really? How about you prove up, oh god of all Star Wars knowledge? I like how you didn't address the battle armor point.
The Vultar Cataclysm was a bunch of Dark Jedi, but according to you the only Dark Side rift in the 1000 years between the Great Hyperspace War and The Sith War was Nadd himself. Looks like some self-ownage to me. Good job.
The Great Droid Revolution was "just one year of fighting against droids?" According to who? Is this Star Wars According to Nai again?
And I didn't "forget" the Third Schism, I didn't even know it existed. Where's that from, hm? All you're doing is helping to prove my point that it was a martial time period. (This would make sense given that the Republic was still expanding)
- the Melida/Daan Civil War (21 battles in 94 BBY, see Jedi Apprentice: Defenders of the Death)
- the Mandalorian Civil War (60-34 BBY, ended by the Jedi with the Battle of Galindraan)
- the Stark Hyperspace War (44 BBY - 6 battles)
- the Yinchorri Uprising (32 BBY - see Jedi Council: Acts of War)
And? Let's hear about Jedi involvement in these wars. I'd also like to ask you where in hell they're fighting other Force-users in these "wars." I hope you remember the prevalence of Niman during the PT. Doesn't speak well for their martial ability.
At least in the wars I referenced there were Force users on the other side, most likely wielding lightsabers. There's also the fact that during TOTJ, blasters were far less prevalent than during the PT and thus the Jedi had to contend with more melee fighters.
That followed by the Clone Wars with at least 98 descriped battles involving Jedi. But pre-TOTJ and TOTJ time period are more martial ?
And in one of their more spectacular showings, the battle of Geonosis, they got their asses handed to them because they used "Diplomat's Form" and were so tactically incompetant that they allowed themselves to be herded into the deathtrap of the central arena. They also wore no battle armor to speak of and were fighting mostly blaster-wielding enemies.
Yeah. I'd say TOTJ is a way more martial, expansionistic time.
What relevant sections. Look at your arguments:
- Vodo comes from a more martial time period (wrong)
- Vodo has shown greater force powers (wrong - did he lift a temple up as Yoda basically did at Ilum ? Did he block Dark Side attacks with his bare hands ? I have this memory where he gets floored by a Sith spirit from the other side of the Galaxy...)
- Vodo has a reach advantage (wow...everybody in the PT can curbstomp Yoda now)
- Vodo has an exosceleton because he is a insectoid being (wow...he will curbstomp everybody).
Vodo is from a more martial time period. Sorry that you hate hearing that, PT fan that you are.
Vodo has shown greater Force powers. Feat wars isn't going to save Yoda. So because Yoda had the opportunity to display his skills in telekinesis, all of a sudden Vodo can't replicate it? So because Yoda has the opportunity to show he can block Dark Side attacks, all of a sudden Vodo can't despite the fact that Vodo was never attacked with such a technique and thus didn't have the opportunity to demonstrate his capabilities?
The same Vodo who can make his staff more powerful than a lightsaber? The same Vodo who knows how to block people from the Force? The same Vodo whose knowledge base was exponentially more valuable than Yoda's?
Right.
And you again showed that you have not read the entire thread and have not gone further than my first post.
How have you reconciled yourself to the fact that Vodo was able to manifest himself as a spirit after four thousand years when Yoda was unable to do the same after a mere decade, by the way?
Somehow you did miss the fact that Vodo was tooled by a lightsaber prodigy with some years of training (at max) while Yoda kept a lightsaber prodigy with 50 years of training (Mace) under his belt as well as 9,999 other Jedi and Count "master of lightsaber vs lightsaber combat refinement style" Dooku with 8 decades of training.
I like how you state the "some years training" ad nauseum despite the lack of any evidence for it whatsoever.
So Vodo should be downplayed because he happened to get tooled by one of the most powerful Force users in the history of the galaxy? That's much like saying Great Britain should be pissed on because it can't beat the United States in a hypothetical war.
I like how you assert Yoda's superiority over all these people when Yoda's lightsaber has not so much even managed to nick anybody but clonetroopers. I like how you assert his superiority over the PT Jedi as if it's even relevant to the discussion - the PT Jedi are inferior in general to the TOTJ Jedi. So what does putting him at the top of the heap of these Jedi do? It only means he has the best chance of beating a TOTJ Jedi. It definitely does not guarantee victory and, if anything, ensures his defeat in most cases.
I didn't say there was no benefit. But fighting against somebody who doesn't use the force against you it doesn't matter if you can use it or not. All that matters is your real combat skill.
Just because Sylvar didn't attack him with the Force does not mean she didn't use the Force to enhance her own capabilities. It would be absurd to assert that she, in her rage, did not do so. My point stands, your point is still nonsensical.
He does use the force in an offensice way. Period. And Force push is a "defensive force power" now ? Nice to know that.
Really, Nai? Force Push is all of a sudden an attack? Funny how he never used it when it would have been lethal to his opponent.
I also laughed when I noticed that fully half of your examples of Yoda "using the Force offensively" were of him launching a counterattack to his opponent's original Force attack.
It's irrelevant ? Obviously she wasn't using force speed, she wasn't using the force to power her strength up or do anything else. Because in this case Ulic couldn't have won that fight since he wouldn't have been able to counter those abilties. She just freaking out using her anger and got put on her ass. Wow. How many people can beat baseball-bat-lightsaber-swinging-style ROTJ-Luke-in-total-rage ?
Obviously she wasn't? What the ****, Nai? This is not Star Wars According to Nai. You cannot assign your completely unfounded, unsupported assertions to the material and label it canon.
That's tantamount to me insisting that "obviously Count Dooku is actually a badass body builder and wasn't using the Force to enhance his strength despite the fact that he pushed back two overhead swings from physically powerful opponents using one arm."
Had it occured to you that Ulic is just that good, and that no amount of nitpicking bullshit can change it?
And she didn't get "put on her ass," he held her off. You should probably try reading the comic.
Let's see:
- I haven't seen Ulic force pushing a Sith Lord through a room like a ragdoll.
- I didn't see Ulic deflecting and dissipating force lightning with his bare hands
- I didn't see Ulic lifting a C-9979 transport, or the remains of the temple on Ilum with telekinesis
- I didn't see Ulic doing impossible movements using the force
- I didn't see Ulic falling down several hundret feet in the Senate Chamber, hit the ground, and then walk away as if nothing has happened
- I didn't see Ulic deflecting blasterfire from 6 different Clones effortless (but what I saw was Luminara - a Soresu Master - getting gunned down by 3 Clones on Kashyyyk)
- I didn't see Ulic sensing the death of persons (and identify them individually) across the Galaxy
- I didn't see Ulic using battle meditation
- I didn't see Ulic as a 900 year old being who did spend his entire life studying the force.In fact: I didn't see Ulic doing anything noticeable with the force.
Wow. We're in la la land, here. Feat wars and the insistence that absence of proof is proof of absence?
Okay, by that logic, because we never see Yoda use Force Choke and Ulic has, Ulic wins because he can choke Yoda.
By that logic, because we never see Yoda take down Mandalore (who is riding a Basilisk war droid) while not even being permitted to stand on solid ground, Ulic wins because he could and did.
By this logic, because we never see Yoda succesfully take down another lightsaber-wielding opponent, Ulic beats him because he could and did.
See where feat wars get you? Nowhere.
Illusions can be countered by battle meditation and I don't see Ulic "Mr.hothead" Quel-Droma pulling enough tactical geniousity out of his ass to rival the guy that has 30 times his age and has commanded more battles than Ulic has even seen - not even talking about the fact that the Wookies are trained to survive and fight in a jungle enviroment in the age of 12...
The same battle meditation that you've yet to prove that Yoda knows how to do? Right. Perhaps you missed it, but I challenged that bullshit earlier.
Ulic "Mr. Hothead' Qel-Droma had enough tactical genius to be able to launch a nigh-successful attack on Coruscant that would have succeeded had Aleema not stabbed him in the back.
Not to mention that the Krath themselves are trained in melee combat, thus reducing the Wookie advantage, and the superstitious Wookies are going to be scared shitless when their weapons turn into serpents before their eyes.
There's also the War Droids, but that would be almost unfair.
ok two things IKC, from browsing through the novel you just wrote.. Why are you bringing Kun into 'defeating' Yoda? Secondly, I don't take Sidious' quote seriously about the Sith ever ruling the Galaxy because we have no knowledge of that. Doesn't mean it never happened but there isn't any evidence to suggest that it did. Finally, Nai's "speculation" about Yoda being more powerful than Ulic is on the same level as your speculation about the opposite. I do however see you try to diminish Yoda's character, especially against Ulic who could or could not be more powerful than him.. Btw, yea Yoda's feats were being listed. What do you call "Ulic was able to use a lightsaber while blind to the force"?
Why are you bringing Kun into 'defeating' Yoda?
Because my original assertion was that Kun by the end of DLotS could defeat Yoda, and I believe Ulic could as well.
Secondly, I don't take Sidious' quote seriously about the Sith ever ruling the Galaxy because we have no knowledge of that. Doesn't mean it never happened but there isn't any evidence to suggest that it did.
That's fine that you don't take it seriously, but Mace confirms the quote and we know that the Sith ruled the galaxy for about a thousand years some time between the Sith War and the PT.
Finally, Nai's "speculation" about Yoda being more powerful than Ulic is on the same level as your speculation about the opposite.
I haven't said it was speculation, first. Second, you misunderstand my point. I haven't said Ulic is more powerful in the Force, but I have stated that it's flat-out foolish to assume that Yoda is more powerful.
However, we know that Ulic is superior to him in saber combat.
I do however see you try to diminish Yoda's character
Care to point that out for me?
Originally posted by IKC
Because my original assertion was that Kun by the end of DLotS could defeat Yoda, and I believe Ulic could as well.That's fine that you don't take it seriously, but Mace confirms the quote and we know that the Sith ruled the galaxy for about a thousand years some time between the Sith War and the PT.
I haven't said it was speculation, first. Second, you misunderstand my point. I haven't said Ulic is more powerful in the Force, but I have stated that it's flat-out foolish to assume that Yoda is more powerful.
However, we know that Ulic is superior to him in saber combat.
I'm not going to argue that Kun may or may not be able to beat Yoda at the end of DLOTS, but what makes you think Ulic will?
And yes I remember what Mace said but do we have any actual knowledge about when the sith ruled?
The only reason I believe Yoda>Ulic was because his force abilities were superior to Ulic's and I think you can agree with me on that. But you were trying to prove earlier that Ulic is somehow superior to Yoda.
Also, how do we know that Ulic is superior to him in saber combat exactly? Because he fought sylvar without the force? What makes him superior to Yoda.Care to point that out for me?
Uh, that doesn't look right... Oh well no point in correcting it.
Originally posted by Wesker
Meh, just tired of this crap. I've tried things like this a dozen times in the past, and it gets snowed in with bullshit. Everyone's got their mind made up before the fight is even voted on; there's no give and take on this forum anymore. Too factionalized.
Your dreams are altogether too beautiful to exist in reality Im afraid.
Originally posted by Illustrious
Let's put it this way. To argue that a bunch of people using the "diplomat's form" means a more martial era than factionalized Jedi who wear battle armor and reference each other as warriors is just plain stupid.
Indeed. I thought we got that point across last September?
