DE Sidious runs the gauntlet

Let's do this point by point since you seem to miss the concepts:

1- Prove to us that Dan Wallace has the authority to make the claims you said he did on this "email".

2- Prove to us that KJA signed off on a single line of hyperbole in the profile of a character he doesn't even deal with on a COMPILATION reference material that he cowrote.

3- Show us exactly what KJA -did- in cowriting that reference material. Nothing suggests that they sat down next to each other and proofread over the other's shoulder. That's ridiculous.

4- Again, show how a reference material can effectively retcon the source material it supposively references.

1. Did he write a book? Ok then. Does he work for LFL? Was his statement in the book allowed to slide?

2. Hyperbole? Oh, and the Ragnos line is just fine and dandy, hm? What about 'Most powerful ever' is hyperbole now?

3. KJA wrote the period on the Ancient Sith completely. You really think he'd have allowed his friend and co-author to go against something like that?

4. Posted this about four times...quoth Leland: Disrepancies are dealt with on a case by case basis. Now, your teurn: Show us how materials-any material can create canon and what gives KJA authority over other authors, when his work contradicts numerous sources and his terms of scale are horrific in the SW universe, when he shows little to no disregard for others' work and a lot of his additions were written over completely. Darksaber and The JA trilogy are great examples. And considering his comics contradict points of the movies...

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Let's do this point by point since you seem to miss the concepts:

1- Prove to us that Dan Wallace has the authority to make the claims you said he did on this "email".

2- Prove to us that KJA signed off on a single line of hyperbole in the profile of a character he doesn't even deal with on a COMPILATION reference material that he cowrote.

3- Show us exactly what KJA -did- in cowriting that reference material. Nothing suggests that they sat down next to each other and proofread over the other's shoulder. That's ridiculous.

4- Again, show how a reference material can effectively retcon the source material it supposively references.

When you provide proof for these assertions of yours, I'll fully entertain your position. Until then, save your typing and stop arguing with your head in your ass.

I suppose if we ignore the post to the massive Rostini/Sansweet topic, Leland Chee's weblog, the Holocron, the fact KJA's name is on the product, Dark Empire and its supplements, the fact they contradict jnothing- and you've yet to say what they contradict- the fact I posted links to where it said discrepancies are dealt with and retcons occur, The links to the Holocron and all...seriously Janus, just admit it: You'd never accept any of this, even if it was from Lucas himself

Originally posted by Lightsnake
His name is on the book.

Great. One of my literature professors seems to be quite old as there is a book with his name on it with only contents medival poems. But his name is on the book so he did write everything in it himself, right ?

If you didn't get it now...

Because medieval poetry is the same subject as fictional history?

No, I would accept a good deal of proof. I haven't seen anything conclusive that states that one line in Sidious' profile in a reference material suddenly retcons the setting and synapsis of source material entirely without anything substantial. I fail to see how Dan Wallace has all the authority in the world to make changes to SW canon on issues of power when he's simply the author of a compilation work. I have yet to see Leland Chee addressing the issue himself, and in the past when he has addressed inconsistancies (As Nai pointed out) he totally ignored them. The issue over who is the most powerful is pretty trivial for a bunch of corporate businessmen, and therefore receives rather lax attention. Also in an interview with Chee, he says he gives presidence to movie related characters over others simply because they have a larger fanbase. This is hardly an objective and complete approach.

And again, nowhere have you shown us how the works of individual authors can suddenly be flipped at the drop of a hat by one sentence in a reference book. Veitch and Anderson both developed the backstory of the ancient Sith. By your logic, Veitch signed off on GAotSE which includes the synapsis. Dan Wallace does not have the authority to override the author's intent on two fronts simply because he makes the NEC. You appeal to authority to get your point across, but it fails you every time. It's like when you argued that Nick Gillard said Sidious mastered all fighting styles, but unfortunately Nick Gillard's official title is "Stunt Coordinator", and his opinion is on par with the Gaffer and Stage Lights Director.

Now, are you going to show me some substantial proof as to how Dan Wallace gets to rewrite the source material at a whim, or are you going to say the same bullshit over and over again? It's not your conclusion I have a problem with, Lightsnake- it's how you reach it. That and your power spamming, which is ridiculous.

Would you just get it that this isn't Dan Wallace alone? This is Dan with the backing of LFL who had to edit AND aprove his book. Who the hell says he rewrote it on a whim, once more, ask around how publishing companies work. the companies tell the author what he can and cannot do and remove information or tell him to add it. It's happens with Wizards of the Coast numerous times. And Veitch wasn't involved with GAOTS.

Dan Wallace wrote this book, meaning he's more official than you by far. And the people in charge are biased, so? GL's own reaction is to ignore plenty of issues with his movies. Hell, to him the original, unaltered OT doesn't exist.

Authors CANNOT rewrite things on a whim, do you get this or not? LFL would never allow that to happen. Hell, LFL decided on Chewie and Anakin Solo's deaths

Where's your proof, Lightsnake? I have your words, but I don't want them. I listen to evidence and proof. Where is it?

Common knowledge of the corporate world?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Would you just get it that this isn't Dan Wallace alone? This is Dan with the backing of LFL who had to edit AND aprove his book.

They approved Splinter of the minds eye too. And all SW Infinities. Are they all canon now ? I guess: No !

Who the hell says he rewrote it on a whim, once more, ask around how publishing companies work. the companies tell the author what he can and cannot do and remove information or tell him to add it. It's happens with Wizards of the Coast numerous times. And Veitch wasn't involved with GAOTS.

Ahaha. I used to work in a publishing company and the author has complete authority over his own work. Of course there are limits in terms of SW but the authors still own the copyrights of their books meaning Anderson could sue LFL for using his characters.

Dan Wallace wrote this book, meaning he's more official than you by far.

Huh ? Because he just wrote a book he has more knowledge / authority or whatever about the SW universe than anybody else ?

And the people in charge are biased, so? GL's own reaction is to ignore plenty of issues with his movies. Hell, to him the original, unaltered OT doesn't exist.

GL's own opinion is that the EU happens in a different dimension / parallel universe. Inside his movie universe Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord and the films do have more fans than the comics (of course). Outside of Lucas movie universe Ragnos can be the most powerful Sith Lord since he just appears to be more powerful than any incarnation of Sidious. Hell...do you think that Anderson (after reading DE) pulled all that uber abilities outclassing Sidious out of his sleeves just to come up with "uh...yeah...you know... I made those guys seem to be leagues above Sidious but of course Sidious is the most powerful in terms of force powers".

Authors CANNOT rewrite things on a whim, do you get this or not? LFL would never allow that to happen. Hell, LFL decided on Chewie and Anakin Solo's deaths

Wrong. Lucas did that on his own in Anakin's case because of "beeing afraid that people would confuse him with Anakin Skywalker". Yeah...speaks tons of Lucas opinion regarding to the EU. Lmao.

Infinities are N-canon by nature and Splinter is in the continuity.

Tell that complete control stuff toa franchise like Star Wars or Dungeons and Dragons...authors don't have total control in a company owned work.

More knowledge? Perhaps not? More authority? Oh, definitely.

How did he make them seem leagues above Sidious? I don't see the Ancients razing worlds or destroying fleets...and Sidious was stated to know all they did.

Point being? That's the company putting its foot down

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Infinities are N-canon by nature and Splinter is in the continuity.

You didn't get it: That something is licensed by LFL doesn't automatically make everything said in the product 100 % canon or correct.

Tell that complete control stuff toa franchise like Star Wars or Dungeons and Dragons...authors don't have total control in a company owned work.

They don't have control about the things that are part of the franchises copyright. For example Sidious is Lucas own creation and Veitch isn't allowed to change Sidious. Even Sidious as he appears in DE is still Lucas character.
Ragnos in the contrary was designed by Anderson and doesn't belong to LFL's trademarks. Of course Anderson most likely has contracts that ensure that he won't sue LFL for using Ragnos character for other things (e.g. games like JA) but they aren't allowed to change the character without the authors permission.

No generally the films do have a higher status than anything else in LFL's policy meaning that of course Sidious - in terms of LFLs canon policy - is the strongest Sith Lord. But if Anderson makes his creations looks stronger (and he's allowed to do so since that doesn't matter to the films) than they are stronger. Period.

More knowledge? Perhaps not? More authority? Oh, definitely.

He doesn't have more authority then any other author. And due to the fact he can't retcon other authors. It's really that easy.

How did he make them seem leagues above Sidious? I don't see the Ancients razing worlds or destroying fleets...and Sidious was stated to know all they did.

Read the comics dude.

Point being? That's the company putting its foot down

Point being: Dan Wallace isn't the company. Leland Chee isn't the company. They work for the company and that's it. All they say is personal opinion especially when messing up the timeline as it's shown in the original sources. If Anderson, the creator of the Ancient Sith Empire, says that thing is 20,000 years old then he's right unless Lucas shows up saying "Uh...no...that doesn't fit my vision". And in this case setting the creation of the Sith Empire to 7,000 BBY just creates a multitude of discrepencies - same with labelling Sidious the "most powerful" (in terms of force powers) Sith Lord in history.

4 Lord Sidious cannot defeat one of the ancients

I agree with Hokage xD

And by the way to all who thinks DE sids is the best they are sadly mistaken Naga Sadow>>Palpy

1. Actually, Nai, it does. That's the canon policy. THAT is C Canon and you've yet to show me proof otherwise.

2. Other authors have retconned KJA and KJA's retconned other authors. The scenario can change and no one author has a complete say. LFL goes over things with a fine tooth comb. DE made Sidious look stronger than Anderson's creations and since then it's been stated that Sidious had mastered every aspect and technique of the dark side. And this source says directly Sidious is above the ancients, which is co-written by the CREATOR of the Ancients, which is approved by LFL. If KJA wrote a source saying "Nomi Sunrider could kill DE Luke." I daresay you've never raise a complaint about it...no, wait, let me go further. "If Vodo Siosk Baas could defeat Ganner Rhysode at the end of Traitor during 'The Dance'" You'd never complain about it. Prove to me authors can't retcon other authors, because apparently LFL gives them the authority.

3. Which was why Veitch was allowed to bring him back and show him doing things the movies never did...and detail Sidious as a young man while he was at it.

4. No, it just disputes your opinion that the others were stornger which is not held by everyone in the Star Wars community, in fact, it's the minority. Company officials apparently believe Sidious was the strongest Sith of all time. KJA has never put his Sith on ANY plateau that Wallace and Veitch and now Jon and Jan have built for Sidious. When announcing Legacy, Ostrander and Duuresma said they were given leave to use the Sith as only Palpatine ever balanced the Force.

They may have personal opinion, but unlike you and me, they can put that opinion into print and make it matter. Lucas had his opinions about how the story happened and filmed it to make it matter. KJA probably thought Kun was the coolest creation SW had ever seen, complaints about that being biased? It's hypocrisy to just write this off. It's C-canon and counts as much as anything else. Even the guy whose theory you used stated retcons have occured and continued to occur. You think authors have never had their work changed? How about the author of Labyrinth of Evil? His stuff was rewritten heavily by the CW cartoon and the Obsession comics. Look at KOTOR, it took a LOT out of the continuity and now that stuff is considered canon. The comics rewrote some of KJA's stuff (No Darths at that time, red lightsabers around then...)

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. Actually, Nai, it does. That's the canon policy. THAT is C Canon and you've yet to show me proof otherwise.

No.
Obviously you need a lesson in literature interpretation. So here it comes:

When trying to interprete a piece of literature you have to look at the design of the source. In the SW universe you have different narrative perspectives. There are first-person narrators, omniscient narrators and you have different "in universe sources".

For example: The stories of the TOTJ comics is partitially based on holocron recordings (e.g. beginning of DLotS when Kun uses Vodo's holocron), then you have reports from witnesses of certain actions (e.g. Quinlan Vos describing the Battle of Kashyyyk in the Republic comics) or you have simply descriptions of an omniscient narrator.

By logic the omniscient narrator overwrites the personal interpretation of witnesses of a certain action and those again overwrite third party sources.

Now have a look at the NEC. The NEC is neither the infallible source you want to have nor the personal opinion of "LFL officials" you want to have. In universe it's just the compilation of historical data gathered by a History Council in 36 ABY.

And from that in universe position the data gathered by said Council can't rival a holocron from the descriped time period, an omniscient narrator or documents from the time of the First Great Shism that Odan-Urr is reading in GAotS #0. Hence both Sidious position as "most powerful ever" and the "start of the Sith Empire 7,000 BBY" are contradicting sources with higher accuracy theirfore they are false.

2. Other authors have retconned KJA and KJA's retconned other authors. The scenario can change and no one author has a complete say. LFL goes over things with a fine tooth comb.

A change in situations could only have happened in favor of the Ancients and not vice versa since Sidious most powerful incanation is seen before the ancient Sith show up.
And for contradiction: "I, Jedi" contradicts some things shown in the JA trilogy. Now ask yourself: Can Corran Horn (since "I, Jedi" is his personal journal) contradict an omniscient narrator (as seen in the JA trilogy) ? I guess not. So whenever "I, Jedi" contradicts the JA trilogy I have to stick to the JA trilogy.

DE made Sidious look stronger than Anderson's creations

It did ? Where ? The ancients had force-based technology enabling them to detonate stars and cause supernovas. Ragnos sceptre could blast through walls, floor Jedi Masters, drain the force energy from entire planets and resurrect people that died 5,000 years ago. The last little "trick" was apparently also known to Sadow since Freedon Nadd tells Exar Kun that they can now "use Naga Sadows knowledge to create a new body for him".

Sidious needed technology to do similar things, yet even technolgy that wasn't infallible (clone madness). And please:

and since then it's been stated that Sidious had mastered every aspect and technique of the dark side.

Oh. It's been stated ? Where ? By whom ? Because apparently Luke in DE seeing the force storm says that this is "according to his [Sidious] own word a chaos that even he [Sidious] cannot control". So he mastered every aspect of the Dark Side but there are things he can't control ? Great logic that is.

And this source says directly Sidious is above the ancients, which is co-written by the CREATOR of the Ancients, which is approved by LFL. If KJA wrote a source saying "Nomi Sunrider could kill DE Luke." I daresay you've never raise a complaint about it...no, wait, let me go further. "If Vodo Siosk Baas could defeat Ganner Rhysode at the end of Traitor during 'The Dance'" You'd never complain about it. Prove to me authors can't retcon other authors, because apparently LFL gives them the authority.

It doesn't matter who did write it. What matters is what it represents inside the SW universe. And it's just an essay about the history of the SW universe written in 36 ABY and in contradicts the omniscient narrator of the GAotS comics who has the greater knowledge in "in universe" terms.

Same with the Date of the creation of the Sith Empire. The NEC contradicts several other C-Canon sources:
- the scrolls read by Odan-Urr in GAotS #0
- the Star Wars Encyclopedia
- the Dark Side sourcebook (25,000 BBY "Sometime during this ancient period, the first dark side uprising took place."😉
- the Power of the Jedi sourcebook (25,000 BBY "During this earliest era, a group of Dark Jedi rose to challenge the Jedi Order. The Dark Jedi were driven from the Republic after a century of battle, eventually resettling on an uncharted world already occupied by a species known as the Sith."😉

And to top it all the NEC contradicts the New Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels written with the same LFL backup:
"Republic Fleet Systems played a large role in Old Republic starship design for over fifteen millennia. The company was founded to design warships to counter the threat of Sith-backed uprisings in distant corners of the Old Republic."

This is great. So they founded an organisation to counter a threat that didn't even exist at that time but instead appeared 8,000 years later ? That "fine tooth comb" the people at LFL work with seems to come from Spaceballs: "Comb the desert !"

3. Which was why Veitch was allowed to bring him back and show him doing things the movies never did...and detail Sidious as a young man while he was at it.

Did Veitch contradict something ?

4. No, it just disputes your opinion that the others were stornger which is not held by everyone in the Star Wars community, in fact, it's the minority.

Appeal to majority. Logical fallacy.

Company officials apparently believe Sidious was the strongest Sith of all time. KJA has never put his Sith on ANY plateau that Wallace and Veitch and now Jon and Jan have built for Sidious.

Appeal to non-existant authority. Logical fallacy.

When announcing Legacy, Ostrander and Duuresma said they were given leave to use the Sith as only Palpatine ever balanced the Force.

What does "balance the force" have to do with how powerful a single person was ? Ignoratio elenchi aka irrelevant conclusion aka red herring. Logical fallacy.

The following examples are plain and simple stupid. Where are the CW cartoons contradicting LoE ? Where is KotoR contradicting parts of the continuity ? There is a logical explanation for every "error" that has been made so far but there is no explanation for the errors in the NEC and there is absolutely no reason to rate the NEC higher than omniscient narrators and older "in universe sources" on a similar topic - therefore you have no argument. Sorry Lightsnake.

great post

Pwnt.