Karnak VS. Batman... Hand to hand combat!!!

Originally posted by darthgoober
I never said that Karnak had an "insurmountable" advantage in durability(otherwise I wouldn't have said that Batman could win a few), just that he DOES have a fairly significant durability advantage. Karnak's lowest showings as far as durability goes is going down to BP, but those are offset by his taking shrugging off shots from guys like Gorgon and Blackbolt. And given that Karnak actually has superhuman durability, his durability showings are more creditable than Batmans(who's still basically human).

If you want to say that Batman wins because of *insert valid Batman feats here* that's fine with me. I haven't followed Batman closely in a while so it's entirely possible that I'm missing something. But your saying that Batman wins because BP did is ABC logic that's right along the same lines as quanchi saying that Glads should beat Darkseid for the majority just because Supes did multiple times now, or that Hulk can resist a blitz from Supes just because Doomsday did 😬 .

It isn't ABC logic. The ABC logic is a fallacy when we're looking at incomparable powers. Saying that Captain America can beat Superman because he can beat Batman, and Bruce can also beat Superman is ABC logic. Bruce beats superman due to kryptonite (and PIS, 😛).

ABC logic is saying that character A can beat character C because he can beat B who can beat C. It's a fallacy because it doesn't take into account the different abilities and stipulations that go into each victory.

I'm not saying that Batman can do it because Black Panther can do it. I'm saying that because Black Panther is too fast for Karnak, Batman also is.

It isn't ABC logic to say that the Flash is faster than Mongul because Superman is, and the Flash is faster than Superman.

Do you see the distinction I'm making? ABC logic in FIGHTS doesn't take into account possible strengths/weaknesses that are TAILORED to each combatant. ABC logic in...statistics (for lack of a better word - I'm a little brain dead right now - don't ask) is perfectly acceptable. Character A can lift more than B, who can lift more than C, is it not appropriate to say A can lift more than C?

Now, neither of us are disputing Batman's the more skilled of the two. Even if we think their speed is approximately comparable, it is apparent that very often, the more skilled opponent will win more often than the stronger one.

Unless you think Karnak is more durable than Grundy - who Batman put down bare handed. Unless you think Karnak is immune to Dim Mak. Unless you think Karnak is immune to the leopard blow or the vibrating palm. Unless you think Karnak is more durable than Aquaman, who Batman bested in hand to hand combat. Unless you think Karnak is more durable than Wonder Woman, who Batman has very badly hurt, unless you think Karnak is more durable than killer Croc (post hush virus, of course), unless you think Karnak is more durable than Gorilla Grodd, who Batman's downed in a single attack.

You think they have comparable speed? You admit that Batman's likely the more skilled? Unless you think most of the above are true of Karnak's durability, I don't understand why you're giving Karnak the win.

Originally posted by Soljer
It isn't ABC logic. The ABC logic is a fallacy when we're looking at incomparable powers. Saying that Captain America can beat Superman because he can beat Batman, and Bruce can also beat Superman is ABC logic. Bruce beats superman due to kryptonite (and PIS, 😛).

ABC logic is saying that character A can beat character C because he can beat B who can beat C. It's a fallacy because it doesn't take into account the different abilities and stipulations that go into each victory.

I'm not saying that Batman can do it because Black Panther can do it. I'm saying that because Black Panther is too fast for Karnak, Batman also is.

It isn't ABC logic to say that the Flash is faster than Mongul because Superman is, and the Flash is faster than Superman.

Do you see the distinction I'm making? ABC logic in FIGHTS doesn't take into account possible strengths/weaknesses that are TAILORED to each combatant. ABC logic in...statistics (for lack of a better word - I'm a little brain dead right now - don't ask) is perfectly acceptable. Character A can lift more than B, who can lift more than C, is it not appropriate to say A can lift more than C?

Now, neither of us are disputing Batman's the more skilled of the two. Even if we think their speed is approximately comparable, it is apparent that [b]very often, the more skilled opponent will win more often than the stronger one.

Unless you think Karnak is more durable than Grundy - who Batman put down bare handed. Unless you think Karnak is immune to Dim Mak. Unless you think Karnak is immune to the leopard blow or the vibrating palm. Unless you think Karnak is more durable than Aquaman, who Batman bested in hand to hand combat. Unless you think Karnak is more durable than Wonder Woman, who Batman has very badly hurt, unless you think Karnak is more durable than killer Croc (post hush virus, of course), unless you think Karnak is more durable than Gorilla Grodd, who Batman's downed in a single attack.

You think they have comparable speed? You admit that Batman's likely the more skilled? Unless you think most of the above are true of Karnak's durability, I don't understand why you're giving Karnak the win. [/B]

1. Aside from his actual encounters with BP, Karnak average portrayal of speed/agility is right on par with Bats and BP.

2. Strength advantage goes to Karnak(by at least a small amount, and likely a decent amount).

3. Durability advantage goes to Karnak(typically takes class 50 and above punches fairly well, and has superhuman durability to justify his doing so).

4. Skill goes to Batman. I don't see there being a large difference, but I can see Bats as taking this one.

5. Damage output via skill goes to Karnak hands down. The guy routinely does things like collapse buildings and destroys solid stone outcroppings with a single shot, along with one shotting most of his opponents.

Thus ALL Batman really has on Karnak is skill, everything else is either comparable(such as speed) or in Karnak's favor(everything else). The way I see it the two might go back and forth for a while with Karnak taking plenty of shots from Batman, but all Karnak really needs is ONE opening to put Bats out of commission(and how many times has Bats managed to evade EVERY shot from a fellow MA?). Even if we assume that a major one shot KO opportunity doesn't easily present itself, we're talking about someone who can break Batman's arm or leg(depending on whether a punch or kick was thrown) with a block, so he doesn't even HAVE to take the offense himself. After a broken limb or two, Bats is going to have a hard time defending himself...

Now let's take a look at Karnak's low end showings against BP...
1. In each Karnak was facing off against the main protagonist of the story, while he himself wasn't the main antagonist.

2. In each encounter Karnak was fighting BP along with several other Inhumans, each of which should have EASILY been an even match with BP(and that's even at the very least, several could actually put down BP on their own IMO).

3. In each encounter, Karnak was put down with FAR less force than he's proven capable of withstanding.

Now when looked at closely, in my mind those three things spell PIS/jobbing encounters pure and simple.

Sorry if you feel I'm not addressing everything...but...PLENTY of shots?

Batman knows a dozen one-hit kills, and dozens more one-hit knock outs, and dozens MORE one-hit incapacitations.

Assuming he got the first hit, he could (literally) end this fight with a single finger. 😐.

Originally posted by Soljer
Sorry if you feel I'm not addressing everything...but...PLENTY of shots?

Batman knows a dozen one-hit kills, and dozens more one-hit knock outs, and dozens MORE one-hit incapacitations.

Assuming he got the first hit, he could (literally) end this fight with a single finger. 😐.

Originally posted by darthgoober
COULD, but how often does he do that kind of thing? I'm thinking of them fighting "in character" after all. Bats is much more likely to try to mix it up the same way he normally does, just like Thor is much more likely to get physical with the Hulk rather than win via BFR. And with comparable speed(and Karnak being a smaller target), Batman it's not as if Bats is going to have an easy time scoring hits against Karnak assuming that he DID go for a one hit KO.

Not to try to bring other threads into this, but didn't the Surfer take the win over Cyborg Superman using a technique that he very rarely displays? 😬.

Originally posted by Soljer
Not to try to bring other threads into this, but didn't the Surfer take the win over Cyborg Superman using a technique that he very rarely displays? 😬.

Originally posted by darthgoober
I'm pretty sure that percentage wise, Surfer transmutes/disables hostile tech when it's encountered more than Bats OHKO's. I'm not denying that Bats will do it some(which is one of the reasons I attribute him a few wins), I just don't see him doing it MOST of the time.

I'm really trying to avoid bringing up that argument all over again, so I guess we'll just agree to disagree on the subject - he REALLY seems to prefer blasting at tech, rather than transmuting it. 😬.

Regardless; I still maintain that Batman is faster and more skilled, and, thus, takes a good majority over Karnak. I don't have the resources or the emotional investment to sit here and give you scans, and I very much doubt you'll take me on my word that he's dodged Supergirl, Flash level rogues, has stolen Kyle's ring before Kyle could react, has moved fast enough to disappear while someone was STARING at him, only to appear behind said person and disarm said person. Has dodged and tagged Impulse (Kid Flash) on multiple occasions, and has dodged punches from Superman.

So...meh. 🙂.

Both Captain America and Batman use distraction,misdirection and diversion to confuse an opponent during a fight. Karnak's skills in "knocking" down buildings and telephone poles is an asset not unlike Batman's smoke bombs and sonic devices. Karnak is quite smart and would figure out Batman was a top tier MA. He could find the weak spot in Batman's arm and strike it when he goes to block (thus breaking it). Same could be done with his leg. I also think Karnak would outlast him in a long fight and being Inhuman could take stronger hits.

Karnak going down to Black Panther doesn't seem right. I like Black Panther but I feel Karnak was jobbing. Even with the losses to BP I would still say Karnak can take 6/10.

Originally posted by Soljer
I'm really trying to avoid bringing up that argument all over again, so I guess we'll just agree to disagree on the subject - he REALLY seems to prefer blasting at tech, rather than transmuting it. 😬.

Originally posted by Soljer
Regardless; I still maintain that Batman is faster and more skilled, and, thus, takes a good majority over Karnak. I don't have the resources or the emotional investment to sit here and give you scans, and I very much doubt you'll take me on my word that he's dodged Supergirl, Flash level rogues, has stolen Kyle's ring before Kyle could react, has moved fast enough to disappear while someone was STARING at him, only to appear behind said person and disarm said person. Has dodged and tagged Impulse (Kid Flash) on multiple occasions, and has dodged punches from Superman.

So...meh. 🙂.

So I see Karnak taking 6 or 7/10 for the following reasons...

Originally posted by darthgoober
1. Aside from his actual encounters with BP, Karnak average portrayal of speed/agility is right on par with Bats and BP.

2. Strength advantage goes to Karnak(by at least a small amount, and likely a decent amount).

3. Durability advantage goes to Karnak(typically takes class 50 and above punches fairly well, and has superhuman durability to justify his doing so).

4. Skill goes to Batman. I don't see there being a large difference, but I can see Bats as taking this one.

5. Damage output via skill goes to Karnak hands down. The guy routinely does things like collapse buildings and destroys solid stone outcroppings with a single shot, along with one shotting most of his opponents.

1. Except for everything that I just mentioned. Calling it BS doesn't change the fact that Batman does it. Every damned comic.

2. No real argument, but Batman pressing a few tons still isn't shabby for a 'peak human.'

3. Grundy, Supergirl, Superman, Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, Darkseid, OMAC Drones, Clayface, Amazo, and General Eiling all disagree.

4. Skill goes to Batman in a landslide. 😬.

Originally posted by Soljer
1. Except for everything that I just mentioned. Calling it BS doesn't change the fact that Batman does it. Every damned comic.

2. No real argument, but Batman pressing a few tons still isn't shabby for a 'peak human.'

3. Grundy, Supergirl, Superman, Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, Darkseid, OMAC Drones, Clayface, Amazo, and General Eiling all disagree.

4. Skill goes to Batman in a landslide. 😬.

And truth be told, I don't know why you're considering Bats to be FAR ahead of Karnak in skill anyway.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Again, if even HALF of Batman's feats were actually valid, he should be an Iron Man level character AT LEAST, or everyone you've talked about him going up against needs to be taken down a notch or two. As is, he's a street leveler with an insane jobber aura, just like Cap. I mean, would you honestly give him the majority in a strait up fight with half the people you've talked about him hurting/dodging?

And truth be told, I don't know why you're considering Bats to be FAR ahead of Karnak in skill anyway.

Would I give him a majority? Of course not.

Would I say that he could take a couple punches from those characters? Would I say that he could deal some damage to those characters?

It'd be idiotic not to - he's done it repeatedly. 😐.

You can't sit there and pick and choose, goob.

"I like Karnak being fast, so I'll pick this feat, but discount where he gets owned by a street leveller."

"I don't, however, want Batman to be fast, so I'll go ahead and discount the ones where he shows off his speed, and only pay attention to the ones where he doesn't."

You're picking the very 'cream of the crop' for karnak, while stating outright "I am invalidating half of Batman's feats.'

It just doesn't work that way. 😬.

Originally posted by Soljer
Would I give him a majority? Of course not.

Would I say that he could take a couple punches from those characters? Would I say that he could deal some damage to those characters?

It'd be idiotic not to - he's done it repeatedly. 😐.

You can't sit there and pick and choose, goob.

"I like Karnak being fast, so I'll pick this feat, but discount where he gets owned by a street leveller."

"I don't, however, want Batman to be fast, so I'll go ahead and discount the ones where he shows off his speed, and only pay attention to the ones where he doesn't."

You're picking the very 'cream of the crop' for karnak, while stating outright "I am invalidating half of Batman's feats.'

It just doesn't work that way. 😬.

And I'm not just going by Karnak's high end, I'm going for his average. He has TWO low showings, and probably a dozen good showings that far exceed it. On the other hand, yes Batman does do the types of feats you listed fairly consistently, but he also gets hurt by punches from of street level people with no real super strength, which also conflicts with his dodging the people you listed(who are far faster than the street levelers he gets hit by).

But we don't NEED common sense or logic....if a fictional character does a fictional feat repeatedly, they should be considered capable of that fictional feat, no?

Their status AS a fictional character kind of throws the whole 'actual human' thing out the window.

And, besides, Bruce's been described as 'more than human' by many of his peers, 😛.

Originally posted by Soljer
But we don't NEED common sense or logic....if a fictional character does a fictional feat repeatedly, they should be considered capable of that fictional feat, no?

Their status AS a fictional character kind of throws the whole 'actual human' thing out the window.

And, besides, Bruce's been described as 'more than human' by many of his peers, 😛.

We portray Batman as a much lesser opponent on the forums compared to how he's portrayed in the comics.

Period.

Originally posted by batdude123
We portray Batman as a much lesser opponent on the forums compared to how he's portrayed in the comics.

Period.

Originally posted by batdude123
We portray Batman as a much lesser opponent on the forums compared to how he's portrayed in the comics.

Period.

And in which medium do you think he is represented appropriately?

Originally posted by darthgoober
Let me ask you this, would you justify classic Quicksilver(who's FAR faster than Batman) dodging the likes of the Flash or Supergirl if they're really TRYING to hit him?

Nope - he doesn't have a direct comparison to Supergirl or the Flash.

All we have to go on is what we can guess.

However, Batman HAS dodged the Flash. He HAS dodged a bloodlusted Superman, Supergirl, and Darkseid.

We don't need to guess - we know.

Originally posted by Soljer
Nope - he doesn't have a direct comparison to Supergirl or the Flash.

All we have to go on is what we can guess.

However, Batman HAS dodged the Flash. He HAS dodged a bloodlusted Superman, Supergirl, and Darkseid.

We don't need to guess - we know.