Originally posted by Borbarad
He beheaded him. Appears odd to me that anybody except you knows that.And please:
a)
Anderson is the co-author of the NEC, yes but most of the work was done by Wallace and I don't see Anderson writing anything about Sidious. And no - he didn't have to acknowledge anything - this is Wallace's book, not Andersons.b)
You can't simply ignore all information given that bolster Ragnos position:- he is labelled the "most powerful of the most powerful" in the "Golden Age of the Sith" with "titanic force powers". All done by the narrators (aka Veitch / Anderson) and this can't be overwritten by a sourcebook (and the NEC is a sourcebook per definitionem).
- Luke with Battle Meditation support by Leia was able to defeat Sidious in a lightsaber fight and he, Leia + unborn Anakin were able to seperate him from his force storm - Luke himself thought it would take the combined power of the entire Academy to try and defeat a living Ragnos
- Ragnos reigned over freaking amazing people for more than 100 years. Even after his death when he appeared as a ghost Sith Lord dropped on their knees before him - Sidious couldn't even keep Vader and DE Luke under control.c)
. Unless you have a quote by Anderson or Veitch directly that all the people are inferior to Sidious you have exactly no argument. [/B]
The only persons able to give any "official" judgement about force powers of individuals are the creators of said characters. Wallace personal opinion (if that E-Mail isn't a fake - and I believe it is seeing who posted it) means [b]jack shit
Pwnt. I expect Lightsnake to be dodging this any second now.
1. So? Anderson is still writing it and his name is on it. Janus, did you conveniently ignore the others posters in the thread?
2. You can't ignore all the info that boisters Sidious's position or how Dan said Palpatine later took the title of most powerful from Ragnos. And DE said all Leia could do was watch...she couldn't affect a thing.
3. And you have something with Ragnos? No, sorry, I have an in universe quote and DIRECT links proving it counts, including links to SW's official site! I'd like to see you prove your statements on the hierarchy of canonicity or how only authors/creators can determine things. I'd like a link or any statement, because it's blatant hypocrisy if you think that way. LFL employees tend to> Fan opinion. Nai, read my thread on the Lit board and read the links I gave. I don't care if you think the email's fake, I posted a link to it and Revolver saw it. The facts remain: The NEC on SW's OFFICIAL SITE was said to provide 'new information' and I posted the hierarchy of canon...guess what, comics and SBs are on the same level.
I'm tired it being called a compilation, it's as much a book as anything else and I'd like ABSOLUTE PROOF it cannot create canon. It's the ESSENTIAL Chronology.
Lmao Lightsnake.
a)
How about presenting proof for your nice little assertions before demanding proof from others, huh ? Would be a great idea. But don't throw faked e-mails, non-existing quotes and so on at me again because that was already boring a few months in the past and - it doesn't get more entertaining.
b)
So. There is no contradiction in the NEC ? Can you tell me what date your NEC gives you for the "First Great Shism" ? Mine says 24,500 BBY and somehow I have this here:
But the Sith Empire was founded 7,000 years BBY ? You really want to tell me that the same Dark Jedi had a 17,400 (100 fighting = battle ended in 24,400 BBY) year journey from Republic space to Korriban and managed to stay alive for that period of time ? Of course. And don't return with a "But Leland Chee confirmed the retcon". You have posted the link and Chee didn't even notice the contradiction and then ignored the proof for said contradiction by the next poster.
c)
And WE TE EF ? That time period shouldn't be the greatest of the Sith ? Those people had centuries to study the Dark Side. Sadow for example remembers the duel between Ragnos and Simus (which happened more than a century before GAotS) and said that Simus was his trained and mentor before that.
Just look at what they did:
- obliterating huge statues with a handmovement (Kressh)
- remaining alive as a talking head for more then a centure (Simus)
- creating artificial solar flares using the force (Sadow)
- using force lightning / force illusions like toys (all)
- obliterating stars / sun systems - creating supernovas (Sadow / his ship used by Aleema)
- nearly taking down 3 planets at once due to his force powers (just failing because of betrayal)
Or to put it in the words of the DLotS narrator:
"Naga Sadow considers the death of a star system a small prize for his own survival" (while showing Sadow destroying a fleet of scout ships with a handmovement destabilyzing two nearby stars).
And Ragnos dominated them for over a century. Meh...when Ragnos spirit shows up during Kresshs and Sadows duell, Kressh believes that Ragnos has come to crush Sadow - he apparently believed that Ragnos spirit would be enough to crush a powerful Sith Lord. Ragnos sceptre, even in the hand of a lesser force user could rip through walls, drain the force energy of entire planets and floor trained Jedi Masters.
What exactly do you want to argue ? Sidious doesn't even come close to those people. They would crush him like a bug.
d)
You can throw in statements from random people like you want but it won't help you. The NEC labels Sidious "the greatest Sith Lord in history" ? Oh...he was...he was the only one to conquer the entire Republic. Very great. Does that help him in a fight ? No. He was "the most powerful", yeah...in terms of political power ? You can say what you want but the actual sources show people using greater amounts of force powers and combat skills. And even those were just Ragnos servants...
And anything else you have are just opinions by human beings. No they aren't superior to anybody elses opinions unless coming from the creators of the stories themselves. Anything else is just a guess. And being an LFL employee doesn't make you all knowing or unfailable as you can see under point "b". Sorry, dude.
Conclusion:
You don't have any base for an argument. So why you try to come here with the same dumb arguments you had pwned over and over again months ago ? Really...seems as somebody here has the cognition of a dead starfish and a similar skill in debates that a fish has when it comes to climb mountains.
A. I provided NUMEROUS links
B. I've posted it time and time again: It was RETCONNED and Leland Chee said it himself. And I don't see a date there. It was decided ODan messed up on his schisms. The Legions of Lettow didn't become Sith, just go to the Lit thread and read it
c. And in the comic where Naga DESTROYS the star, it's stated to be his ship and KJA wrote it's his ship in the first chronology.
D. I can list those feats to other people, too. Luke and Palpatine, among others. Don't see any of them destroying fleets or razing worlds to uninhabited wastelands...
E. Oh, cut it out. I posted the scan, I posted the info of the retcon, I posted a link to the SW site showing it could provide new info, I posted to Leland Chee and the canon policy, quit ignoring it
Originally posted by Lightsnake
A. I provided NUMEROUS links
You provided plenty of meaningless bullshit.
B. I've posted it time and time again: It was RETCONNED and Leland Chee said it himself. And I don't see a date there. It was decided ODan messed up on his schisms. The Legions of Lettow didn't become Sith, just go to the Lit thread and read it
Dude. Leland Chee didn't say it himself because he didn't even notice that there was a retcon. So would you stop lying ? Just again only for you:
http://forums.starwars.com/thread.jspa?threadID=152583&start=0645
Question:
"I mean, changing the date for the birth of the Sith Empire is a fairly large retcon, and you and Dan Wallace appear to readily acknowledge this."
Leeland answering:
"I'm not sure I understand the discrepency. The Sith Empire still begins after the dark Jedi discover the Sith species, ~ 7000 BBY. The Legions of Lettow were not Sith."
And then look at that:
http://blogs.starwars.com/LordScourge/7
Uh, damn. Mr. Chee didn't even spot the discrepency and then ignored it. And the authors of the blog also pretty much pwns any information in the NEC contradicting the original sources because of that:
At this point, I'm inclined to think that Dan Wallace has accurately given us an "in-universe" document that was produced by the Historic Council of the Galactic Federation of Free Alliances in 36 ABY, complete with the errors they made. Voren Na'al, Archivist Emeritus of the Historic Council, admits how much their knowledge is lacking due to the censorship of Palpatine's Empire and the destruction of the Yuuzhon Vong invasion.
Damn it. The NEC just pwned itself as a thrustable source. Lmao.
c. And in the comic where Naga DESTROYS the star, it's stated to be his ship and KJA wrote it's his ship in the first chronology.
Wow. He could create a freaking ship able to destroy stars an cause supernovas by using the force. Sidious had to waste tons of resources and more than a decade of time to create a damn space station that was able to destroy a single planet every 24 hrs. Hmm...who is the greater force user and Sith here...let me think.
D. I can list those feats to other people, too. Luke and Palpatine, among others. Don't see any of them destroying fleets or razing worlds to uninhabited wastelands...
No ? Excuse me: What do you think Sadow did creating artificial solar flares and destroying the ships that pursued him ? Destroying a fleet maybe ? What do you think Aleema did with his ship tossing the core of a star arround and causing a supernova ? Destroying several fleets / planets maybe. If you didn't see that you should probably read the original sources instead of sticking to a chronology that labels itself inaccurate per definitionem.
E. Oh, cut it out. I posted the scan, I posted the info of the retcon, I posted a link to the SW site showing it could provide new info, I posted to Leland Chee and the canon policy, quit ignoring it
- You posted an opinion
- You lied about the retcon
- "providing new info" is not "contradict everything
- Leland Chee's canon policy labeled sourcebooks a "special case" in terms of C-Canon and you ignored it.
Anything else to say ? Yes ? I hope you understand the following:
Oh, for the love of...I proved that the chronology is on the same level as any book or comic.
And proof how Naga got that ship? How long they took to make on planets with more wealth than the Republic? Yeah, no proof.
And what lie? Leland said it himself: There's no discrepancy, the Sith Empire begins at 7000 BBY. That is now canon fact in SW and you're the only one who tries to argue it.
And I'm sick of this 'contradicting' bullshit. What the HELL does it contradict? There was NEVER a date on the Sith Empire in the original comics OR a "Ragnos was the strongest of all time" In them either. Want to bring up Dark Empire and its supplementary material?
Once again, this isn't a sourcebook, there aren't RPG stats and the C Canon policy is "Story and background info fly, game stats and gameplay do not." I pointed that out numerous times
Let's do this point by point since you seem to miss the concepts:
1- Prove to us that Dan Wallace has the authority to make the claims you said he did on this "email".
2- Prove to us that KJA signed off on a single line of hyperbole in the profile of a character he doesn't even deal with on a COMPILATION reference material that he cowrote.
3- Show us exactly what KJA -did- in cowriting that reference material. Nothing suggests that they sat down next to each other and proofread over the other's shoulder. That's ridiculous.
4- Again, show how a reference material can effectively retcon the source material it supposively references.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Oh, for the love of...I proved that the chronology is on the same level as any book or comic.
Dude...to make it clear:
The NEC is a book "inside" the SW universe written by the Historic Council of the Galactic Federation of Free Alliances (in 36 ABY) and itself says that some informations are inaccurate because of the events happening in the SW universe before. So. When it contradicts the original sources that means that this is caused by a "lack of information". The NEC undermined it's authority to retcon something by it's own definition. Consider this book to be pwned.
And proof how Naga got that ship? How long they took to make on planets with more wealth than the Republic? Yeah, no proof.
Sidious needed a "technological nightmare" to do what the ancient Sith did by using the force. Think of that fact again and see what conclusion you can draw, genious.
And what lie? Leland said it himself: There's no discrepancy, the Sith Empire begins at 7000 BBY. That is now canon fact in SW and you're the only one who tries to argue it.
The discrepancy is that the NEC itself puts the First Great Shism in the year 24,500 and - as the picture I've shown shows you - the Dark Jedi arrived at the Sith homeworld after this First Great Shism. Did you get it now ? Mr Chee just missed an inconvenient detail.
And I'm sick of this 'contradicting' bullshit. What the HELL does it contradict? There was NEVER a date on the Sith Empire in the original comics OR a "Ragnos was the strongest of all time" In them either. Want to bring up Dark Empire and its supplementary material?
Dude. The chronologies give the date of the First Shism. The comic (picture I've posted) states that the Dark Jedi joined the Sith after said Shism so the dating of that event to 7,000 BBY (17,400 years after the First Shism ended) is plain and simple stupid.
Once again, this isn't a sourcebook, there aren't RPG stats and the C Canon policy is "Story and background info fly, game stats and gameplay do not." I pointed that out numerous times
It is a compilation or - inside the SW universe - a compilation of knowledge done in 36 ABY. What would a Council of Historians know about events happening 5-7 millenia ago in a completely isolated Empire ? Right: Nothing. You can toss the NEC out of your window since it - by any means - doesn't have the authority needed to retcon anything in the original sources. Period. And now please shut up. I'm already bored of destroying your pointless claims every 10 minutes.
Umm...the poster who said that said he was inclined to think so...he also said "I accept Star Wars has had numerous retcons and will continue to do so."
It's one MB poster's theory, Nai. The character Voren has ever been used as some scribe, and one MBers theory changes nothing. The officially accepted starting date of the Sith Empire now is 7000 BBY. Go to SW.com, try TFN, they can explain the canon policy better there...hell, ask for Leland or another official. Every book with Voren, from the character guide, to the guide to planets/species and the like was an out of universe document with a bit thrown in to make it more of an actual SW book. Once more, what does it contradict in regards to the strength? We still have DE and its supplements?
And once again, prove to me how Sadow got that ship and when it was made.
And Odan-Urr was wrong, the same guy whose theory you're using said that was a possibility...hell, a hundred thousand years? Isn't that pushing it just a tad?
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Umm...the poster who said that said he was inclined to think so...he also said "I accept Star Wars has had numerous retcons and will continue to do so."
Dude. The NEC contradicts itself - don't you get it ?
It's one MB poster's theory, Nai. The character Voren has ever been used as some scribe, and one MBers theory changes nothing. The officially accepted starting date of the Sith Empire now is 7000 BBY. Go to SW.com, try TFN, they can explain the canon policy better there...hell, ask for Leland or another official
And once again: Leland has not spotted the fact that there is a discrepancy because of the picture I've posted and the fact that the first shism is dated to 24,500 BBY. By that "official" timeline the Dark Jedi needed more than 17,000 years to travel from Republic space to Korriban. Got it now ?
And once again, prove to me how Sadow got that ship and when it was made.
Man. It doesn't matter if Sadow or another Ancient constructed it: Fact remains that Sidious apparently hadn't the power to do the same and so he wasn't the most powerful Sith Lord as well as people outclassed him in other uses of the force. Hell...I could even say that Plagueis > Sidious by all we know about him.
And ODan-Urr was wrong, the same guy whose theory you're using said that was a possibility.
Man. Don't you get it:
First Shism (according to all chronologies): 24,500 BBY
According to this...
... the Dark Jedi joined the Sith directly after the First Great Shism (= 24,500 or 24,400 BBY). Got it now ? So placing that event on the year of 7,000 BBY is absolute bullshit.