Darth Maul vs ROTJ Vader · Star Wars Versus Forum

jollyjim311 Scruffy Nerf Herder

Originally posted by Darth Vious
Prove that Luke was fighting as fast, or faster than Ray was in the clip, and I'll accept your point. Fact of the matter is you can't because proof does not exist. As with the Vodo Vs Yoda thread, you are beaten because you can't prove your point, and do not have the sense to admit it and let it drop.

Not that proof would matter to you, but:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=U4uC4UcfiTg&search=carbon%20freezing%20chamber

35-ish seconds into it.

Archangelysses Senior Member

I'm curious jollyjim,

If the discussion is regarding moving fast with a lightsaber, and skills as a swordsman, how is Luke just jumping high (Albeit, it is done with a certain degree of speed) showing as good a swordsman ability as Maul as such

jollyjim311 Scruffy Nerf Herder

Meh, well, Vious is just annoying, and hopefully he'll shut up now.

How does spinning like a fairy help in a lightsaber fight?

kamikz A.I.M Mercenary

Lol yeah that's exactly what I thought too. Ray Park is always pushing his staff into his back when he is done, and as Vious said Darth Maul did those exact moves in SH, so he cut his own back off. 😛

Darth Vious Restricted

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Meh, well, Vious is just annoying, and hopefully he'll shut up now.
How does spinning like a fairy help in a lightsaber fight?

I'm annoying? Why is that, because I can prove my points and you can't?

As Archangle pointed out above, that speedy jump Luke pulled off has absolutely nothing to do with his duelling speed in RotJ.
Spinning like a fairy...
I'd like to see you say that to Ray's face. $20 says you wouldn't have the balls to do so.
As for how it helps...
The speed with which the saber blades are being spun would be fantastic defence against incoming blows or blaster bolts, and used offensively, would be very hard to guard against.

Darth Vious Restricted

Originally posted by kamikz
There has been proof providing that Yoda knew all jedi techniques, was greater than any jedi before him, said to be "the greatest threat that darkness had ever faced" until the time of Luke Skywalker.
Why would Yoda need to, the lightsaber was a better tool for the jedi than the walking stick apparently, since that could break in battle. Yoda's stick was also a gift from the wookiees, I doubt he wanted to ruin it, besides, it is too short to be wielded as a weapon. And you can't say that because Vodo had a staff and Yoda a lightsaber that means that Vodo is better.
You can prove to me that Vodo is greater....

No, there was not proof that he knew 'all' great techniques.
Why would he need to...
Why did Vodo prefer to use a staff than a saber? Yoda's stick would have been long enough to use to deflect blows, and if he was indeed imbuing it with the Force, it wouldn't get ruined.
Also, I'm not going to prove anything to you about Vodo being better, the other thread already does that. I'm not repeating what's already been there, so read it for yourself.

Darth Vious Restricted

Originally posted by kamikz
Lol yeah that's exactly what I thought too. Ray Park is always pushing his staff into his back when he is done, and as Vious said Darth Maul did those exact moves in SH, so he cut his own back off. 😛

Don't misquote me. I did not say that Maul did those exact moves I sad that had maul been required to do the moves in SH onscreen then they could have been performed by the actor. Also, I've seen Ray catching his arm with the blade as well, but so what, it was a totaly impromptu demonstration without a proper warm up, I'd like to see you do better. I expectthe same thing happened when they were shooting TPM, and they just never rotoscoped that section (or just used another take) because it would be impossible to notice from a front shot.

kamikz A.I.M Mercenary

Yes, there are sources telling us that.
And Yoda might have prefered a lightsaber, nothing wrong with that. And Yoda's stick as I said, was a meditation stick and a gift he got from the wookiees, there is a chance they will be ruined in combat as well.

So you won't post me any proof? The most they said was, "Yoda lost to Sidious, and Sidious is just a politican/sith lord, so Vodo wins". They thought Sidious sucked and Vodo was better than him, they thought all Yoda's accomplishment could be done by Vodo as well, but where is the proof of that? And why the hell do you argue against "greatest threat darkness had ever faced" and "strongest jedi of all time"?

kamikz A.I.M Mercenary

Originally posted by Darth Vious
Don't misquote me. I did not say that Maul did those exact moves I sad that had maul been required to do the moves in SH onscreen then they could have been performed by the actor. Also, I've seen Ray catching his arm with the blade as well, but so what, it was a totaly impromptu demonstration without a proper warm up, I'd like to see you do better. I expectthe same thing happened when they were shooting TPM, and they just never rotoscoped that section (or just used another take) because it would be impossible to notice from a front shot.

The latter thing was a joke, hence the 😛. And why drag me into this, I never compared myself to Ray....

So you say, "if they wanted Ray to do that they could have". Well, they didn't. If they wanted Vader to strike so fast that he was invisible they would have, but they didn't.... It is funny how you dispute all other sources telling characters they are better than others, but when it comes to SH you use it as an equal to the movies.

Darth Vious Restricted

Originally posted by kamikz
Yes, there are sources telling us that.
And Yoda might have prefered a lightsaber, nothing wrong with that. And Yoda's stick as I said, was a meditation stick and a gift he got from the wookiees, there is a chance they will be ruined in combat as well.

According to the TPM Visual Dictionary, Yoda's stick was an aide to meditation whilst being chewed. Where is there evidence of Yoda chewing his stick?

Originally posted by kamikz
So you won't post me any proof?

Why should I? The existing thread has already determined who is the greater Jedi. If you don't agree, then fine, don't agree, that opinion has been proven wrong already, and I am not going to waste my time re-proving a point that has already been proven because you refuse to accept it.

kamikz A.I.M Mercenary

Originally posted by Darth Vious
According to the TPM Visual Dictionary, Yoda's stick was an aide to meditation whilst being chewed. Where is there evidence of Yoda chewing his stick?
Why should I? The existing thread has already determined who is the greater Jedi. If you don't agree, then fine, don't agree, that opinion has been proven wrong already, and I am not going to waste my time re-proving a point that has already been proven because you refuse to accept it.

Do he need to chew it onscreen for it to be canon? And Yoda used it as a walking stick as well, I doubt he wanted to break it, and as I said before, it was a gift, I doubt you would bring out a famous japanese Katana that your grandfather gave to you long ago because you could use it in a battle...

Why do you always take out certain parts and answere them when you don't listen to the rest. I explained how they thought and hence I dind't think of it as proof, but you only answere the, "So you won't give me proof" part....

Darth Vious Restricted

Originally posted by kamikz
The latter thing was a joke, hence the 😛. And why drag me into this, I never compared myself to Ray....

Because you mentioned him catching himself on the blades, suggesting that you think that is a problem, and that you could do better.

Originally posted by kamikz

So you say, "if they wanted Ray to do that they could have". Well, they didn't.

Absolutely.

Originally posted by kamikz
If they wanted Vader to strike so fast that he was invisible they would have, but they didn't....

And do you know why they didn't?? Because as Lucas himself said in a documentary, he never intended for Vader to move that fast. He never intended for Luke to move that fast either.

Originally posted by kamikz
It is funny how you dispute all other sources telling characters they are better than others, but when it comes to SH you use it as an equal to the movies.

EU sources are not as canon as the films. Simple as that. The only reason I've used SH as reference is because it showed Maul using skills that were not called for in TPM, and other than TPM, there is no visual reference of Maul to use as reference. The closest he gets to spinning his saber like that is against Obi-Wan in the reactor room, and that's nowhere near as fast as Ray was doing so. That shows that if Maul had wanted to spin his saber that fast, then he could have done so. He didn't feel the need to do so because he was overconfident and misjudged Obi-Wan's ability.

Archangelysses Senior Member

Funny how this debate (Travesty of the word using it here) has digressed completely from the point.

Read Dark Lord by Luceno

This clearly states that Vader was no longer as fast as he was when complete (human, not in his life support suit of mechanics). However, it states that he then changed his style of fighting to compensate. His form now was short range to protect to the body and utilising both his force power and the muscle/servomotor strength to batter an enemy.

Effectively becoming like an unstoppable battle tank

kamikz A.I.M Mercenary

Edit: @ Vious.
Oh lord, the same thing about Vader. They didn't call in the skills he showed in the comics into the films, it is the same thing. I'm tired of having to go over the same shit, I won't continue this, it is just taking my time, it is completly pointless....

Darth Vious Restricted

Originally posted by kamikz
Do he need to chew it onscreen for it to be canon?

Preferably. He was meditating in AotC and no stick chewing. He was also meditating in CW and no stick chewing. If there's EU mention of Stick chewing, then feel free to mention it, because either way, there's evidence in the movies of him not chewing it whilst meditating.

Originally posted by kamikz
And Yoda used it as a walking stick as well, I doubt he wanted to break it,

Same goes for Vodo. I doubt he wanted his stick broken either, but that didn't stop him from pussying out when it came to using it.

Originally posted by kamikz
I doubt you would bring out a famous japanese Katana that your grandfather gave to you long ago because you could use it in a battle...

That's where you'd be wrong. I was given one of the prop katana from the Highlander TV series as a birthday present, and although the situation hasn't come up that I had to use it in a fight, I have used it while sparring against another live blade.

Originally posted by kamikz
Why do you always take out certain parts and answere them when you don't listen to the rest. I explained how they thought and hence I dind't think of it as proof, but you only answere the, "So you won't give me proof" part....

Because I didn't care what you thought. You want proof, look in the thread. If you don't like that, too bad, we'#ll have to agree to disagree, because I'm not wasting my time proving a point that has already been proven.

Archangelysses Senior Member

FOr all of Maul's speed, both Qui Gon and Obi Wan were shown as slightly faster and better.

for proof, Qui gon forced maul back quite successfully. Maul had to stun qui gon to kill him

Kenobi also drove Maul back and WON THE FIGHT

Now, if both of these jedi were faster, then it is entirely fair to state that Vader's new style of fighting, would to at least a 75% certainty negate Mauls speed.

Darth Vious Restricted

Originally posted by kamikz
Edit: @ Vious.
Oh lord, the same thing about Vader. They didn't call in the skills he showed in the comics into the films, it is the same thing. I'm tired of having to go over the same shit, I won't continue this, it is just taking my time, it is completly pointless....

I think you mean you won't continue this because you can't prove the point. In RotJ, Luke was moving nowhere near as fast as Ray could (which is also Maul's potential abilities as no one else portrayed him) Vader was unable to prevent Luke from cutting off his hand. Now, if Vader could not prevent one person (who Lucas admitted was a half-trained boy) cutting his hand off, how would he be able to block the attacks of someone moving at least twice as fast, and with two blades rather than one?

Archangelysses Senior Member

speed does not always equal force

for example a 10 year old boy swings a blade the same speed as a 25 year old. However, the force they hit at will be different.

Darth Vious Restricted

Originally posted by Archangelysses
FOr all of Maul's speed, both Qui Gon and Obi Wan were shown as slightly faster and better.

Classic example of Good Guys having to win out over the Bad Guys. Had it been a totally unbiassed fight, I doubt it would have gone as it did.

Originally posted by Archangelysses
Kenobi also drove Maul back and WON THE FIGHT

And once Obi-Wan cut Maul's saber in half, Maul regained all the ground he had first lost, and then succeded in putting Obi-Wan down the shaft. Obi-Wan only won (due to plot necessity) and a flukey move relying on luck. As above, had it been a totally unbiassed fight, I do not think it would have gone as it did.

Originally posted by Archangelysses
Now, if both of these jedi were faster, then it is entirely fair to state that Vader's new style of fighting, would to at least a 75% certainty negate Mauls speed.

Why?
Vader's style in ESB/RotJ will not be as fast as it was in RoDV (which again, is only description, it proves nothing visually) and was not as fast as Maul's.

Darth Vious Restricted

Originally posted by Archangelysses
speed does not always equal force
for example a 10 year old boy swings a blade the same speed as a 25 year old. However, the force they hit at will be different.

I quite agree. Not that that actually proves anything. Lucas has explained on documentary why the OT duels were slower. RotJ Vader might have more physical strength than Maul (to be honest, I wouldn't like to say either way there) but he didn't have the speed to block Luke's blow that severed his hand, so there's no way he could block blows coming at him twice as fast, and when it comes to a lightsaber, the force with which the blade is swung is not entirely relevent unless the fighters get into a saber lock, for example, Makashi does not generate anywhere near the power of Djem So, but a Makashi practicioner can still overcome the Djem So practicioner with their more precice attacks.