Originally posted by Revolver Ocelot
Well... 40 years later they had a formal Council, a formal leader (Vrook), so MAYBE they had a Grandmaster.Vodo was a unorthodox Jedi. I guess me prematurely calling him the Grandmaster of the Order may be due to my impression of the guy.
Vrook wasn't the grandmaster. I am pretty sure it was Vandaar.
Yes, now let's take the proof he was lashing out with the same attack because all that seemed ODan used was a force push...and isn't it great how that isn't the same wall of light ability Vodo and Nomi are using? One took Ulic's power from him, one bound him temporarily, and neither Jedi were personally fighting him..wasn't Ulic surrounded at the time and being teamed up on by...how many Jedi? And, I fail to see how what Nomi uses on Ulic is any way, shape, or form similar to what Odan's using, since ODan's powers apparently worked on Ancient Sith. And considering Exar is declaring himself the 'true owner' of a Sith holocron reacting to him, Odan could safetly assume he wasn't Feeder of Kittens and Orphans
Originally posted by Lightsnake
wasn't Ulic surrounded at the time and being teamed up on by...how many Jedi?
If you're referring to when Ulic gets stripped (of his Force, not clothes 🙂 ) then no, he was surrounded by like who? Tott and Nomi? And, Tott was trying to tell Nomi to chill out, notice he says "...hasn't there been enough--", but Nomi already was in the process of using (and basically completed when he was cut off) the technique on Ulic.
Jesus fing Christ, Lightsnake. I'm glad you know so much about the source material...
Huh, looks like he's teaching Nomi Sunrider the force blocking technique...
OH EM GEE! CONTEXT! Looks like it's not a force push to anybody that knows how to read narration and dialogue! Wow. Fancy that!
And now we see narrative proof that Vodo knows the very same technique! Gee. Only a total dumbass could think that this wasn't the same technique! Oh, wait...
Teamed up by how many jedi? Irrelevant misdirection, logical fallacy. Odan could do it by himself, Vodo knows the same technique. Ergo, Vodo can do it by himself. Corrolation is not causation, the number of Jedi present is not relevant unless it can be established that that number was needed.
And, I fail to see how what Nomi uses on Ulic is any way, shape, or form similar to what Odan's using, since ODan's powers apparently worked on Ancient Sith.
Factually incorrect. I'm glad you have such a great grasp of the source material, though.
And considering Exar is declaring himself the 'true owner' of a Sith holocron reacting to him, Odan could safetly assume he wasn't Feeder of Kittens and Orphans
Uh, unless you're going somewhere with this (and I fail to see where you could possibly be going), irrelevant misdirection, logical fallacy.
That's great, I'm sure in all her time there he'd taught her just the one thing. I'm sure 'reaching into the light' refers to just one ability that, in practice is a lot different than what Odan's throwing at Kun there. If it could affect Ancient Sith, Kun is having any chance how?
And is that text saying the other Jedi are adding their powers to Vodo, TEMPORARILY imprisoning Vodo? Point is, that you assume Vodo could do it by himself, when he and the other Jedi 'temporarily' block Ulic together, when he;s surrounded and not fighting...and considering ODan could use that technique-which, when Nomi does it looks a bit different in execution...Nomi heard about it once from Odan, it's not something she practiced on a regular basis; you're telling me, Nomi could use this technique when Odan's fails, and Odan has used it on Ancient Sith in the past?
That's great, I'm sure in all her time there he'd taught her just the one thing. I'm sure 'reaching into the light' refers to just one ability that, in practice is a lot different than what Odan's throwing at Kun there. If it could affect Ancient Sith, Kun is having any chance how?
Uh, considering that the Kun's intrusion occurs directly after he teaches her the technique and the narration tells us he's using said technique (because it is the only technique taught to Nomi that is attributed directly to Odan-Urr anywhere in TOTJ) then we can safely say that it is the same ****ing technique. Get it through your head, read the scans.
As for how does Kun have a chance... obviously, he's either too powerful for Odan or, (and we have reason to believe this) he knows a defense against it, given that he was able to restore Ulic's force abilities after rescuing him.
And is that text saying the other Jedi are adding their powers to Vodo
Irrelevant misdirection, logical fallacy.
Ad hoc, ergo propter hoc (after this, therefore because of this), logical fallacy.
You would first have to establish that those Jedi were necessary to imprison Ulic. You can't, because there's no evidence for it.
However, because Odan was able to attempt the technique by himself and Nomi was able to perform it by herself and because we have narrative confirmation that Vodo knows the technique... Vodo can do it by himself.
QED.
Teaches her? She's totally shocked the first time she uses it...he pretty much tells her about it once. And where does it say "He tries to block Exar Kun from the force?" 'Reaching into the light' doesn't strike me as making a wall of light....and what? Able to restore Ulic's force abilities? Able to defend against a technique Naga's ilk couldn't?
It doesn't matter if they were needed to imprison Ulic because you'd probably be the first to claim every Jedi was needed to stop Kun. And the word 'temporarily', see it? Nothing proves at all, the blocking was permanent, and Ulic doesn't freak out like he did the time he was truly blocked.
And because A=B, B= C? Logical fallacy, try again. There's no evidence Vodo couldn't done it by himself
Teaches her? She's totally shocked the first time she uses it...he pretty much tells her about it once. And where does it say "He tries to block Exar Kun from the force?" 'Reaching into the light' doesn't strike me as making a wall of light....and what? Able to restore Ulic's force abilities? Able to defend against a technique Naga's ilk couldn't?
Arguing with the omniscient narrator? Head up your ass, much?
Read again.
And do you have an explanation as to how Ulic's force powers are miraculously restored after Kun rescues him? No? Then I guess we're going to go with my supported assumption.
It doesn't matter if they were needed to imprison Ulic because you'd probably be the first to claim every Jedi was needed to stop Kun. And the word 'temporarily', see it? Nothing proves at all, the blocking was permanent, and Ulic doesn't freak out like he did the time he was truly blocked.
Ad hominem tu quoque, logical fallacy. Hell, I haven't even said that, so your logical fallacy isn't even accurate.
Hm. Actually, you committed the logical fallacy of Poisoning the Well.
Indeed, the word "temporarily" appears to still be in effect even during his own trial. Given he was still blocked from the Force until after Kun's rescue, it's a supported assumption that Kun restored his abilities especially since Kun was able to resist or otherwise thwart Odan's attempt.
And because A=B, B= C? Logical fallacy, try again. There's no evidence Vodo couldn't done it by himself
You don't even know how to identify them correctly. Sorry, but you're committing ad hoc, ergo propter hoc. Burden of proof lies with you that those extra Jedi were necessary.
My assertion that they weren't is backed up by Odan and Nomi's evidence and the narration from the scene itself. Have a good time trying to support your position with... nothing.
What part of "He taught her more about reaching into the light and techniques than a single page of discussing a technique' are you just not hearing?
And when were Ulic's force powers gone? Arguing with the narrarator? "Temporary."
Where was Ulic blocked following his trial? It was a temporary wall of light. Maning it wasn't permanent, meaning it wasn't the technique Nomi used later.
And it's your burden of proof Vodo could do it by himself. I said they overwhelmed Ulic, want to try to argue that?
What part of "He taught her more about reaching into the light and techniques than a single page of discussing a technique' are you just not hearing?
What part of "he's using the only technique he is said to have taught Nomi Sunrider about (how to block people from the Force)" do you not understand?
Bad reading comprehension, much?
And when were Ulic's force powers gone? Arguing with the narrarator? "Temporary."
To the time after Kun rescues him.
Where was Ulic blocked following his trial? It was a temporary wall of light. Maning it wasn't permanent, meaning it wasn't the technique Nomi used later.
Except not, because they're the same technique with varying degrees of magnitude as proven by the narration and dialogue.
And it's your burden of proof Vodo could do it by himself. I said they overwhelmed Ulic, want to try to argue that?
No, it's your burden of proof that those Jedi are necessary for Vodo to perform the technique at all. As shown with Nomi and Odan, they are not.
Spend more time on your posts. Those four lines were uninspiring, Ferrous Cranus.
I'll see if you've posted anything remotely challenging or if you're still wandering in vain search of a thought in about 30 minutes.
I don't know, what part of 'prove he was using that same exact technique that he'd only just TOLD her about' are you incapable of doing?
And once more: Temporary wall of light. So his powers weren't permanently blocked. Meaning you have no proof Kun restored them
You're the one making grandiose clams, buddy boy...I think you should put up or shut up: Prove Vodo could do it on his own. If Kun could 'resist' it on his own, why would Ulic be unable to exactly? Wait...maybe because it's not the exact same technique and the one Nomi used cut him off completely while the other just blocked him temporarily? Just look how he freaks out after Nomi blocks him.
Well, it appears you haven't found a thought yet.
I suppose I'll just recap everything so even vacant skulls can see it:
As we see in the previous three scans from narration and dialogue, Odan-Urr is teaching Nomi Sunrider how to block people from the Force - a technique she'll eventually use on Ulic Qel-Droma in permanent form.
We also see that such an attack, even though it apparently was effective against the Ancient Sith, did precisely zilch to Kun other than push him back, to which Kun responds by killing Odan.
As we see in this scan, Vodo knows the very technique in question.
Because correlation is not causation
and
because Nomi could perform it by herself
and
Odan could perform it by himself
and
Vodo is stated by the omniscient narrator to know how to use said technique,
then
Vodo can use said technique by himself.
Your subjective observations as to the appearance and apparent effects of said attacks are irrelevant and do not override this narrative evidence.
Your objections that Vodo happened to perform the technique on Ulic with the help of other Jedi are based on a logical fallacy because you can only show correlation and not causation.
Your assertion that Vodo cannot perform the technique by himself is unfounded: Nomi, a subordinate of his in rank and power, was able to do so just fine.
Conclusion: Vodo can and will use this technique to strip the Force from Darth Vader and will win this fight.
QED.
Originally posted by Revolver Ocelot
[b]Vrook wasn't the grandmaster. I am pretty sure it was Vandaar.I wouldn't say grandmaster, but he seemed to be the one in charge. [/B]
Well in KOTOR Vandaar seemed to be the one calling the shots. Vrook was given more command in KOTOR 2. (Mainly because Vandaar was thought to be dead)
Originally posted by Revolver Ocelot
Really? I thought Zhar would be the highest authority in KOTOR1... I mean, he was the one charged with the task of retraining Revan.
Well, that doesn't put him in a position of authority. It could well be that Zhar was the "padawan trainer" of the order. Sort of like Cin Drallig.
Vandaar would be more like the Yoda of the order.
