Not sure why I didn't check back here. There's a ton of stuff I disagree with on the last page, but there is so much to quote. Not sure I feel like it. 🙁
On JDS, the HW division is fairly weak and he still needs to fight Overeem and rematch Cain. I just don't think he warrants a top 5 placing on the p4p list.
lol ive noticed everyone who posts in this thread posts in one kind of versus forum or another.
An MMA versus forum where we could argue hypothetical fights would be pretty fun actually. We could do future fight predictions, matchup fighters from different eras, even fighetrs today that aren't currently scheduled to fight.
Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
lol ive noticed everyone who posts in this thread posts in one kind of versus forum or another.An MMA versus forum where we could argue hypothetical fights would be pretty fun actually. We could do future fight predictions, matchup fighters from different eras, even fighetrs today that aren't currently scheduled to fight.
It could be interesting. Their's so much MMA out their it's hard to contain all on one thread I think.
Here's one: Bas Rutten VS Rickson Gracie. One of the greatest fights to never happen. Who takes it and how?
To be honest I was never too familiar with that era of MMA or some of those older legends, only really know Bas Rutten as a commentator and general MMA personality, plus I know that for a while he fought under these crazy rules where you werent allowed to throw punches to the face or something, so Bas instead would just strike with the palms of his hands instead right?
Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
To be honest I was never too familiar with that era of MMA or some of those older legends, only really know Bas Rutten as a commentator and general MMA personality, plus I know that for a while he fought under these crazy rules where you werent allowed to throw punches to the face or something, so Bas instead would just strike with the palms of his hands instead right?
Yes. That was Pancrase in Japan. Actually,Pancrase I believe pre-dated UFC by about a year. The history of MMA is really interesting because it's almost like it has two different histories that eventually came together.
The history of MMA in Japan,developed independently of the way it grew here in America. In Japan,their was a real heavy pro-wrestling influence.
Fans grew tired of "fixed" matches so they began stiff wrestling which still had fixed outcomes,but the moves where applied to full effect,and it slowly grew into real fighting from their. Their's a whole evolution of Shooto DVD that highlights this perfectly. You can actually see the fights slowly transform into something real.
Bas was quiet something because in my honest opinion he was truly one of the first all around mixed martial artist in history that applied his techniques in real games of sportsmanship if you will. His first fight in Pancrase is I believe, still one of the greatest. An open palm strike to the liver sent his opponent crumbling to the mat and the crowd was shocked.
When the UFC began and the Japanese saw what the Brazilians had done with a Japanese martial art that's,in part what started the whole PRIDE hayday. Though Rickson is said to have ducked competition (and in part I believe it's true),their's a whole inner working of the way the Japanese thought which in part pardons this.
Mark Kerr,Bas,Coleman,Frye,etc,a lot of those guys probably could have beat the Gracies but to the Japanese that wasn't the point. They wanted to see one of their own do it because that's where the feud was. To see an American dispatch Royce or Rickson was somewhat pointless because they wanted,needed,a national hero to do it. Little did they anticipate it wouldn't be an already established hero to accomplish this deed,but instead one would be made in the process.
Enter Kazushi Sakuraba.
Well that's my little history lesson this week or at least my take on Mixed Martial Arts history. You know to me it's weird,because I still consider myself a full fledged MMA fan,but their's something bittersweet about it now. The athletes are now at the pinnacle of their game but that whole chapter I just mentioned is now for the larger part over with. The Tokyo Dome is all but empty now. Once holding over 70,000 fans as history unfolded in the middle of a ring. It's a shame that their are so many great fans now and I regret they missed living possibly the greatest era of the sports history.
Well now I just ranted and sound like one of those old farts who talked about how great it was to live in the era of Zeplin or The Beatles.
Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
lol what are your thoughts on my mma rankings?
HW: I'll leave alone. I want to see the rematch with Cain/JDS first.
LHW: I'd probably switch Machida and Rashad. I know Jones finished Machida, but Machida was giving him hardest fight before that. Add to that, Machida thrashed Rashad pretty hard and you've got a case for Machida over Rashad. LHW is somewhat murky, since many of them are capable of beating each other though. Phil Davis needs some higher profile wins before being ranked that high though. No way is Chael Sonnen ranked number 5. Wait for him to actually fight someone. His last LHW fight was like....7 years ago and his wins were against nobodies. Shogun and Henderson can probably fill their spots.
MW: I'm surprised you, of all people, don't have Chael here. Bisping too. Palhares got his ass whooped by Henderson. Why is he at #5? Dude has no top 10 wins. Belcher at #4?
WW: Where is Condit? He's recently beaten two of the people you ranked over him. BJ is number 2 when he lost to Diaz and drew with Fitch? Rory at 5? Ellenberger at 3?
LW: Ok, I guess.
FW: I'll wait until Aldo/Edgar.
BW😮k.
FLW😮k.
It's kinda funny that your lighter weight class rankings are way more accurate than the heavier ones.
Originally posted by mr.smiley
Enter Kazushi Sakuraba.
lol when I was reading your post with my inner voice this part sounded just epic lol. Sakuraba is one of my all time favorites, and yeah I kind wish I had been a fan from the beginning, I only started really getting into it around 2005 and for the rest I've just had to watch some of the older stuff but ti's not really the same.
The athletes are now at the pinnacle of their game but that whole chapter I just mentioned is now for the larger part over with.
Gotta agree with this it's sad in a way to see some of my all time favorites like Rampage slowly fade into irrelevance and even people like Shogun no longer being able to compete with the new generation of fighter athletes (Jones-Shogun was a real dramatic way of highlighting that imo).
Originally posted by StyleTime
[B]Some of these seem like you just picked fighters you liked more.
Not true at all.
HW: I'll leave alone. I want to see the rematch with Cain/JDS first.LHW: I'd probably switch Machida and Rashad. I know Jones finished Machida, but Machida was giving him hardest fight before that. Add to that, Machida thrashed Rashad pretty hard and you've got a case for Machida over Rashad.
This one I was kinda unsure myself. Machida is an incredible striker (with great finishing ability), exellent defencive wrestler, he has good takedowns himself, and BJJ black belt. Rashad is a great striker (with ko power) with excellent wrestling, very explosive, and also BJJ black belt. But I think the wrestling of Rashad coupled with his other well rounded skills, makes him the deserved number 2. He isn't the best striker (I see Machida and Jones obviously, as well as lil Nog, Gustafson, and Shogun beating him standing) but he's still so good that he beats the vast majority of people striking, and I think his wrestling is good enough that he can outwrestle virtually anyone, except for Jones. So I think he should be number 2 guy. A rematch with Machida might prove t be different if he is more relentless with his wrestling, but even if machida beats him in their matchup, I see Machida having trouble with the likes of Shogun, Lil Nog, Gustafsson etc when Rashad could probably veyr easily use his wrestling to neutralise them, while also being somewhat of a threat standing.
LHW is somewhat murky, since many of them are capable of beating each other though. Phil Davis needs some higher profile wins before being ranked that high though.
He did beat Lil Nog, imo the best striker/BJJ fighter in the division,. as well as Gustaffson. I see him beating anybody but Jones, Machida and Rashad. He has the incredible wrestling, and great BJJ, that makes him a real threat with the grappling imo.
No way is Chael Sonnen ranked number 5. Wait for him to actually fight someone. His last LHW fight was like....7 years ago and his wins were against nobodies. Shogun and Henderson can probably fill their spots.
Shogun and Henderson more recently have demonstrated relatively weak defencive wrestling; Shogun has a lot of power with a great chin, very good striking and great BJJ, but he can be taken down at will by a decent wrestler. Henderson likewise has good wrestling but prefers to stand up and brawl, and his stirking is one dimensional, relying on his incredible ko power, and he too could egt taken down at will. A jump in weight class doesnt make that big a difference, if you look at how well Chael was able to sue his wrestling at MW, and how well he did against Anderson, I thik I can justify placing him at 5.
MW: I'm surprised you, of all people, don't have Chael here. Bisping too. Palhares got his ass whooped by Henderson. Why is he at #5? Dude has no top 10 wins. Belcher at #4?
Im trying to limit fighetrs to just their current wieghtclass, otherwsie sonnen would be 3. Bisping is really not that great a fighter, he is a very good defencive wrestler (why he gave sonnen somewhat of a troubling fight), he has good standup but nowhere near excellent (so he cna outstrike guys like Brian Stann but not much more). He has virtually no power and a questionable chin. He's well rounded enough that he can beat a lot of guys and would make my personal top 10 but he doesnt make top 5. Anderson Silva is Anderson Silva, Weidman is an incredible grappler, Belfort a truly great and dangerous striker, Palhares an absolute demon on the ground with submissions, and also a powerful wrestler and striker, and Belcher is a very good striker with an excellent ground game. And the Henderson Palhares fight was pretty close actually, a lot of people though Palhares should have won.
WW: Where is Condit? He's recently beaten two of the people you ranked over him.
When they were both a lot greener and in close fights (Rory dominated him for two rounds, got hurt in the third and finished with a quetsionable stoppage, Ellenberger almost finished him in their fight). When you look at his skillset his lakc of good TDD just doesnt cut it, and eh isnt really all that great a striker imo, veyr good ground game of course though.
BJ is number 2 when he lost to Diaz and drew with Fitch?
BJs position is on the condition that he is motivated and in shape, which he looks to be in the upcoming fight with Rory (seriosuly, check it out, hes in the ebst physical shape hes ever been at ww). He was beating both guys in the first round pretty easily, he wins those fights when ehs in shape.
Rory at 5?
I was considering Koscheck but Rory is turning into a very good fighter, Hes like a mini GSP, very well rounded and he had excellent wrestling.
Ellenberger at 3?
Excellent wrestling, veyr good standup, ridiculous power, why not?
Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
lol when I was reading your post with my inner voice this part sounded just epic lol. Sakuraba is one of my all time favorites, and yeah I kind wish I had been a fan from the beginning, I only started really getting into it around 2005 and for the rest I've just had to watch some of the older stuff but ti's not really the same.Gotta agree with this it's sad in a way to see some of my all time favorites like Rampage slowly fade into irrelevance and even people like Shogun no longer being able to compete with the new generation of fighter athletes (Jones-Shogun was a real dramatic way of highlighting that imo).
Yeah It's a crazy thing. Guys like Rampage and Shogun where part of the first wave of super fighters for the sport.
I think in part their decline is due to what happens in all sports. Athletes just get older. But with MMA I think another aspect is the degree to which the fighters can train better,and more frequently now.
I'm sure they'll be more great MMA history to come, but for us,well just think 30 to 50 years from now fans will call all of us old times for watching guys like Jones,Anderson,and GSP during their prime.
They may not even know who guys like Royce and Saku where or how revelant they where to their sport in the early years.
I agree. I didn't get into MMA until around 2005 either, but I was sad to see those fighters go. I witnessed Fedor's reign, so seeing his decline was tear jerking, even if he wasn't my favorite fighter. The fall of PRIDE also hurt my soul. I miss the presentation, and we don't really have successful Sakuraba or Genki Sudo personalities here.
....and Crocop. 🙁 I was the biggest Crocop fan back in the day, so you can understand how hard I cried when he fell from grace. When he lost that rematch to Mark Hunt, I didn't want to accept facts. Heck, I even had my fingers crossed for the old Crocop to show up during the Roy Nelson fight.
That said I fear the end of the current era a little more. The current wave was the first time I got to see fighters as they created their legacy. I didn't watch GSP/Silva/Aldo/etc through videos of old fights. I was "there" for it. It feels like I've followed a narrative, gotten attached to the characters and their world, but know it will ultimately end in tragedy.
Maybe we'll get lucky and they'll retire before they start losing.
What are people's thoughts on B.J. Penn at the moment?
If you've seen any pictures or videos of him recently he's looking to be in the best shape by far that he's ever been at WW, and he's been saying recently a lot that he isn't too happy that he's no longer considered one of the very top (definite top 5 P4P) fighters in the world anymore and I have this weird feeling that he's about to go back to his best and that we're going to see an in shape and motivated BJ Penn, in which case I think that he's going to send a message and destroy Rory.
Seriously, I think that a truly in shape and motivated BJ Penn has what it takes to be the top pound for pound fighter in the world. He is, imo, the greatest pure talent that we've ever seen in MMA, when you look at both the physical and the technical aspects. Technically speaking - he became the youngest ever non-Brazilian to get a black belt in BJJ, and won the world championships after having been a black belt for just a year, he has arguably the best P4P takedown defence in MMA when he's at his best, Matt Hughes could literally not take him down, GSP could not do it against a fresh BJ, and even Randy Couture struggled to take him down in training, and on top of all of that he has arguably among the most technically sound boxing in MMA. Then you look at him physically, his otherworldly balance (part of what made his TDD so great), his incredible flexibility (people said that his legs were like extra arms on the ground), amazing chin and for a small guy great power. So when you look at both the physical and technical attributes I don't think there's ever been anyone as gifted as BJ and I think if he truly gets in shape, starts training as hard as other fighters and gets motivated to become one of the top fighters again, we might see him better than he's ever been before.
GSP is maybe a close second - physically he's one of the most athletic, explosive guys in MMA (maybe even the best pure athlete), and then technically he developed arguably the best wrestling in MMA, with absolutely no background in it, as well as in general world class well rounded skills. 3rd - imo, Dominick Cruz.
Jon Jones is overrated and is definitely not the greatest talent there's ever been in MMA, his main attributes is that he knows how to use his reach really well when it comes to striking, ground and pound and submissions, and he has truly great wrestling, but he really isn't that explosive or athletic, and he has a lot of holes in his technical game, so I definitely wouldnt say he is the best talent ever to come into MMA like others have been saying. He's been able to use what gifts he possesses to win against great competitition and at a very young age though, but that doesnt mean he is the most gifted.
Who knows, maybe we'll see a rematch between BJ and Frankie some day, perhaps in a few years when they're both at their absolute best, and maybe BJ will be LW champ and Frankie FW. Fun fact, they are both considered the number 1 pound for pound fighter in the world, respectively, by Anderson Silva and GSP.
Upcoming predictions:
Nate Diaz def. Benson Henderson via submission, round 3.
Shogun def. Alexander Gustaffson via TKO, round 2.
BJ Penn def. Rory Macdonald via TKO, round 1.
Hector Lombard def. Rousimar Palhares via TKO, round 2.
Alan Belcher def. Yushin Okami via decision, 29-28.
Gray Maynard def. Joe Lauzon via decision, 30-27.
Junior Dos Santos def. Cain Velasquez via KO, round 1.
Vitor Belfort def. Michael Bisping via TKO, round 1.
Demetrious Johnson def. John Dodson via decision, 50-45.
Anthony Pettis def. Donald Cerrone via TKO, round 2.
Quinton Jackson def. Glover Teixeira via KO, round 1.
Rashad Evans def. Antonio Rogerio Nogueira via decision, 30-27.
Frankie Edgar def. Jose Aldo via decision, 48-47.
BTW you should check out this guy's videos truly hilarious stuff:
http://www.youtube.com/user/prebek
These ones are really funny:
Originally posted by TheOneOfMortis
Upcoming predictions:Nate Diaz def. Benson Henderson via submission, round 3.
Shogun def. Alexander Gustaffson via TKO, round 2.
BJ Penn def. Rory Macdonald via TKO, round 1.Hector Lombard def. Rousimar Palhares via TKO, round 2.
Alan Belcher def. Yushin Okami via decision, 29-28.
Gray Maynard def. Joe Lauzon via decision, 30-27.
Junior Dos Santos def. Cain Velasquez via KO, round 1.
Vitor Belfort def. Michael Bisping via TKO, round 1.
Demetrious Johnson def. John Dodson via decision, 50-45.
Anthony Pettis def. Donald Cerrone via TKO, round 2.
Quinton Jackson def. Glover Teixeira via KO, round 1.
Rashad Evans def. Antonio Rogerio Nogueira via decision, 30-27.
Frankie Edgar def. Jose Aldo via decision, 48-47.
Bendo by decision
Gustaffson by TKO
Rory by TKO
Palhares via sub
Okami by decision
Gray by decision
JDS by KO
Bisping by decision or Vitor by round one KO
Mighty Mouse by decision
Cerrone by TKO
Glover by KO
Rashad by decision
Frankie BY TKO