Oops, I forgot about this. Mace was able to defeat Sidious, and GL confirmed that it was due to him being more powerful and that Sidious was fighting to the best of his ability. While Yoda lost to Sidious, he showed that he was stronger then him imo.
And Mace has displayed exceptional skill and power in the EU, especially in the CW cartoons and Shatterpoint, for example when he singlehandedly defeated an army of B-2 battle droids and a massive seismic tank, without his lightsaber for much of the battle. What has Yoda really done that is on par with that?
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Erm...no, GL confirmed nothing of the sort...
Yes he did. Do some research.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
and Yoda's displayed mroe skill and power, your point?
Yay for unsupported assumptions.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Mace won once. He was certainly not about to win that lightning force fight...he was nearly beaten when Sidious stopped.
WTF? He was clearly winning the force fight. Sidious stopped because Mace was redirecting his lightning back on him and messing up his face. Sidious would have been destroyed if he continued.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
OH, and Yoda's destroyed an entire army of droids. With just his saber
Could you supply the source please? And how is that on par with what Mace did, Mace didn't even have his saber for much of the battle. And what do you mean by 'just his saber'? What else would he need?
No, he didn't. He just said 'overpowered'. Nothing about fighting to the best of abilities.
erm, nope. According to the novelization, Mace was about to be overpowered when Sidious 'stopped'...anyone with three brain cells could see Sidious faked the lightning part. Y'know, the whole 'POWER! UNLIMITED POWER' thing...and we've seen Palpatine have the ability to change his face at will
Clone Wars? And destroying an entire army by YOURSELF isn't impressive? Pleeeease.
GM Nebaris, Lucas never confirmed nor stated that Mace Windu was more powerful for Palpatine.
You are twisting the words stated on the RotS commentary. Unfortunately, it won't work on us. Especially myself, who has argued this for several, several months on several, several threads.
Furthermore, it is not our responsibility to find this "research". If you offer a "fact" (which you seem to think that it is), then you are responsible for delivering us the proof.
So prove up.
Originally posted by GM Nebaris
OK, until then let's agree to disagree.
Are you talking to Lightsnake, or me?
You said this:
Yes he did. Do some research.
And, in the same post:
Could you supply the source please?
This won't do. You are using double-standards. Lightsnake is supposed to provide you with "the source", but you're not obligated to do the same?
Welcome to real-world debating. The same standards that apply for myself, Lightsnake, or anyone else applies for you just as much. Your assertion that "Windu owns all" is a very mistaken one.
Dark Rendezvous is just as - if not moreso - canon as Clone Wars. And, in Dark Rendezvous, Windu specifically states to Chancellor Palpatine that he is inferior to Yoda.
The context of the situation neither implies nor states that Windu was being humble.
Not to mention that the databank and several other sources state that Windu is "second only to Yoda".
"This won't do. You are using double-standards. Lightsnake is supposed to provide you with "the source", but you're not obligated to do the same?"
How am I using double-standards? I was asking him for the source. He was asking me for the exact quote. Those are two very different things, as it takes him no time at all to name the source, whereas it would take me ages to find the exact quote that Lucas said.
How am I using double-standards?
You're asking him to provide a source (for proof), and yet you assume we're supposed to take your word on it from your end.
I was asking him for the source. He was asking me for the exact quote.
The "exact quote" is your source. You are to provide it.
Those are two very different things, as it takes him no time at all to name the source, whereas it would take me ages to find the exact quote that Lucas said.
Indeed.
The quote is: "this scene always started out with Mace overpowering the Emperor".
Which, as I explained to you, can be argued. If Palpatine were holding back during the duel (which makes sense, if you take the entire situation into consideration: ie, Palpatine being a master manipulator, his ultimate goal of bringing Anakin to the Dark Side, the fact that he knows that the "Jedi" don't trust Anakin . . . so forth) - Mace still, by literary definition, overpowered Palpatine in this instance.
Which is another thing. Palpatine was not actively using the Force, as he did against Yoda. I highly doubt that Mace could defeat Palpatine in an all-out struggle.
Anyways, that is the proper quote.
It never specifically states, as you said, "Mace is more powerful than Palpatine".
You couldn't be more wrong. I was not using double standards because even though I was not willing to provide the quote (that's right, quote NOT the source) I did not demand the source, I did not in any way indicate that I expected LS to supply the source. I was just curious as to when Yoda did what LS said, and was unwilling to supply the exact quote because I quite frankly couldn't be bothered.
Yoda wins with relative ease. I mean Mace and the Count are on par, however Dooku lost fairly quickly against Yoda. And Dooku's style is made for duelling. So I dont see how Mace stands a chance.
He did beat Sids, whether Sids was going his hardest is a matter of opinion but what we do know is this. Sids was supposedly weak and disarmed with no energy left, and then seconds later he was unleashing a torrent of lightning on Windu which blasted him out of the window. Sids then stood up as if it was nothing. Now to me this would imply that Sids was playing Mace the whole duel. And then there is Yoda against Sids. The sith lord had the advantage the whole duel but wasnt able to overcome Yoda. Sidious was also using the force constantly, but to no success. Now if we compare the two battles it shows that Yoda did a far better job than Mace.
Then add in the fact that Yoda has beaten Mace before, and that there is no evidence to suggest Mace has beaten Yoda. And also the EU makes everyone look uber. In the movies Mace wouldnt be able to take on an army of SBD, especially without his lightsaber. So it is very difficult to use the EU as the basis for your argument.
Originally posted by GM Nebaris
You couldn't be more wrong. I was not using double standards because even though I was not willing to provide the quote (that's right, quote NOT the source) I did not demand the source, I did not in any way indicate that I expected LS to supply the source. I was just curious as to when Yoda did what LS said, and was unwilling to supply the exact quote because I quite frankly couldn't be bothered.
Can't be bothered?
Then don't be upset when you're not taken seriously. Your opinion is absolutely worthless in an argument, especially with your current attitude and unwillingness to accept fact.
However, I have provided the quote. The quote that Lucas says in the commentary regarding this duel. You'll notice that he never states that Mace is more powerful.
I strongly suggest that you stop lying.
Yoda wins with relative ease. I mean Mace and the Count are on par, however Dooku lost fairly quickly against Yoda. And Dooku's style is made for duelling. So I dont see how Mace stands a chance.
Yoda wouldn't win with relative ease. He's certainly more powerful than either Dooku or Mace, but he wouldn't simply blink and obliterate them from sheer existence.
He did beat Sids, whether Sids was going his hardest is a matter of opinion but what we do know is this. Sids was supposedly weak and disarmed with no energy left, and then seconds later he was unleashing a torrent of lightning on Windu which blasted him out of the window. Sids then stood up as if it was nothing. Now to me this would imply that Sids was playing Mace the whole duel.
Agreed. And it is possible that Mace is, in fact, a better lightsaberist. It wouldn't surprise me, considering how he's been obligated to train whereas Palpatine has not - being Chancellor and puppet-master, I doubt he's had the time to.
And then there is Yoda against Sids. The sith lord had the advantage the whole duel but wasnt able to overcome Yoda. Sidious was also using the force constantly, but to no success. Now if we compare the two battles it shows that Yoda did a far better job than Mace.
This is where I disagree.
What advantage did Palpatine have, exactly? Especially on the podium-part of the duel. He simply remained stationary while Yoda attempted to batter his defenses. And, even then, he took these so-called advantages. They weren't laid at his feet.
Furthermore, Yoda attempted to take the middle ground on the podium, but was forced back.
Sidious did not have the advantage, save for lucky footing in the final pod scene.
Then add in the fact that Yoda has beaten Mace before, and that there is no evidence to suggest Mace has beaten Yoda. And also the EU makes everyone look uber. In the movies Mace wouldnt be able to take on an army of SBD, especially without his lightsaber. So it is very difficult to use the EU as the basis for your argument.
Agreed. Mace is good, on par with Count Dooku, but - Yoda is better.
Originally posted by Rampant ox
Yoda wins with relative ease. I mean Mace and the Count are on par, however Dooku lost fairly quickly against Yoda. And Dooku's style is made for duelling. So I dont see how Mace stands a chance.He did beat Sids, whether Sids was going his hardest is a matter of opinion but what we do know is this. Sids was supposedly weak and disarmed with no energy left, and then seconds later he was unleashing a torrent of lightning on Windu which blasted him out of the window. Sids then stood up as if it was nothing. Now to me this would imply that Sids was playing Mace the whole duel. And then there is Yoda against Sids. The sith lord had the advantage the whole duel but wasnt able to overcome Yoda. Sidious was also using the force constantly, but to no success. Now if we compare the two battles it shows that Yoda did a far better job than Mace.
Then add in the fact that Yoda has beaten Mace before, and that there is no evidence to suggest Mace has beaten Yoda. And also the EU makes everyone look uber. In the movies Mace wouldnt be able to take on an army of SBD, especially without his lightsaber. So it is very difficult to use the EU as the basis for your argument.
I agree, except for the following:
Sidious did in fact fake being weak when he was blasting lightning at mace, but he was IMO downright overpowered in the lightsaber duel and had his lightsaber kicked out of his hands.
I dont see why you can't use the EU as your basis for the argument. If that was the case then we would not be able to debate DE luke vs Yoda and Sidious because in the EU is so extremely overpowered. So Yoda and Sidious would win by default.