Thought Sidious did indeed take these advantages by himself, he had a much easier position to do so. Yoda's goal was to kill Sidious, Sidious goal was to survive this battle. That's just like a game of tag. The one who is escaping can climb up on a roof or climb up a tree, or jump into the water, the follower must follow because he cannot allow him to escape. He could not just simply climb up in a tree cause then the other would escape....
Originally posted by kamikz
Thought Sidious did indeed take these advantages by himself, he had a much easier position to do so. Yoda's goal was to kill Sidious, Sidious goal was to survive this battle. That's just like a game of tag. The one who is escaping can climb up on a roof or climb up a tree, or jump into the water, the follower must follow because he cannot allow him to escape. He could not just simply climb up in a tree cause then the other would escape....
The fact that their goals were different doesn't mean anything. In tag, your goal is to intercept, not follow. Yoda could have very well attempted to control the battle (i.e force Sidious to move in a specific location).
Yoda attempted to take the "advantage", and he failed to do so. If you'll watch the scene where the camera pans back from the Chancellor's podium, you'll see that Yoda forces Sidious down from the middle position.
But then Sidious forces him back.
That's the emphasis, because the battle ended in a draw. These so-called advantages were taken, because yes - Sidious just wanted to survive.
What better way to ensure one's safety than by taking what little advantages there are?
Originally posted by Escape81
Yoda wouldn't win with relative ease. He's certainly more powerful than either Dooku or Mace, but he wouldn't simply blink and obliterate them from sheer existence.Agreed. And it is possible that Mace is, in fact, a better lightsaberist. It wouldn't surprise me, considering how he's been obligated to train whereas Palpatine has not - being Chancellor and puppet-master, I doubt he's had the time to.
This is where I disagree.
What advantage did Palpatine have, exactly? Especially on the podium-part of the duel. He simply remained stationary while Yoda attempted to batter his defenses. And, even then, he took these so-called advantages. They weren't laid at his feet.
Furthermore, Yoda attempted to take the middle ground on the podium, but was forced back.
Sidious did not have the advantage, save for lucky footing in the final pod scene.
Agreed. Mace is good, on par with Count Dooku, but - Yoda is better.
Originally posted by Escape81
The fact that their goals were different doesn't mean anything. In tag, your goal is to intercept, not follow. Yoda could have very well attempted to control the battle (i.e force Sidious to move in a specific location).Yoda attempted to take the "advantage", and he failed to do so. If you'll watch the scene where the camera pans back from the Chancellor's podium, you'll see that Yoda forces Sidious down from the middle position.
But then Sidious forces him back.
That's the emphasis, because the battle ended in a draw. These so-called advantages were taken, because yes - Sidious just wanted to survive.
What better way to ensure one's safety than by taking what little advantages there are?
He failed to take the position because he is 5 feet smaller than Sidious. If you are playing basketball and there is a tiny player trying to force a position and a much bigger person is not allowing him to will he succeed?
Ah, but you disagreed that Sidious had any real advantages.
Originally posted by Admiral Akbar
You're exactly right, Sidious had center ground and Yoda was trying to batter his defenses while also trying to take that center position. Why? Because he would have an advantage over Sidious. Could you imagine Sidious flipping around Yoda? I dont think so. That center was an important postion to be in; therefore Palpatine had an advantage.
When Yoda attempted to take the position, Palpatine forced him back.
Basically:
Yoda took the position. Palpatine had a disadvantage. But, despite that, he still forced Yoda back.
Originally posted by Admiral Akbar
He failed to take the position because he is 5 feet smaller than Sidious.Ah, but you disagreed that Sidious had any real advantages.
Touche. There were advantages. But, obviously not ones that gave either opponent an incredible boost.
Secondly, that makes no sense.
Yoda's height means nothing when it involves that advantage. He attempted to take the position, succeeded for a brief moment, but was forced back.
Why? Palpatine made him.
Originally posted by Escape81
Touche. There were advantages. But, obviously not ones that gave either opponent an incredible boost.Secondly, that makes no sense.
Yoda's height means nothing when it involves that advantage. He attempted to take the position, succeeded for a brief moment, but was forced back.
Why? Palpatine made him.
His hieght and size basically does matter. It's far more difficult to move a bigger object from a centerpoint than it is to move a smaller one.
Originally posted by Escape81
The fact that their goals were different doesn't mean anything. In tag, your goal is to intercept, not follow. Yoda could have very well attempted to control the battle (i.e force Sidious to move in a specific location).Yoda attempted to take the "advantage", and he failed to do so. If you'll watch the scene where the camera pans back from the Chancellor's podium, you'll see that Yoda forces Sidious down from the middle position.
But then Sidious forces him back.
That's the emphasis, because the battle ended in a draw. These so-called advantages were taken, because yes - Sidious just wanted to survive.
What better way to ensure one's safety than by taking what little advantages there are?
Actually it does. Sidious was pretty much controlling the fight, even if Yoda had to force him somewhere he would still get there first, like the pod, Sidious got in there and stood in the middle while Yoda had to go around it. If Yoda's goal was to survive he might have gotten into that thing first and waited for Sidious to attack, but if he did it in this case then Sidious would have escaped out the door. I don't think Yoda's intentions was to ever go up into the senate chamber, but he had to follow Sidious who sent the pod on it's way up....
The same deal with the force battle. If Yoda's intentions was to survive he could have jumped away from Sidious then started to throw pods himself, but Yoda was under the pressure of having to hurry up before Sidious sent his men, and having a force battle with Sidious would not prove very effective since it would take a long time. Really, everything Sidious needed to do was to prolong the battle....
Originally posted by Admiral Akbar
His hieght and size basically does matter. It's far more difficult to move a bigger object from a centerpoint than it is to move a smaller one.
WTF? Are you seriously going to argue that?
Oh, yes. I forgot. You're the one who thinks that Yoda outclasses Sidious in every way.
Surely forcing Yoda back has nothing to do with skill or ability, but that Yoda is smaller.
Of course I'm going to argue that, when it comes to a rather small area on a pod size does matter. And seeing as how Sidious is bigger, he is able to take up more space and therefore create an advantage.
I do think Yoda outclasses him. Even Sidious thinks so. Wasn't he the one trying to escape? and "survive?"
a) Palpatine's "running" tactics can be justified by his intent. He wanted to either a) escape or b) prolong the fight to ensure that his men arrive so that he is guarenteed a victory.
b) Palpatine and Yoda both fight with lightsabers, and that is ultimately left a stalemate (however, the RotS script says that Yoda managed to outspar Sidious in the end). Even when they fight on even ground, Yoda is still unable to overcome Sidious.
Sidious flips onto the Chancellor's podium as it rises out of his office. He lands right on the Chancellor's block (the mini-platform in the center where he stands in all of the Senatorial addresses). Yoda follows suit and lands on the railing in front of him.
Yoda's style of lightsaber combat requires acrobatic maneuvers and intense speed to compensate for his stature and so forth. Therefore, it only makes sense that he is in the only real position that he can fully utilize his lightsaber form. He is still unable to overcome Sidious.
They are, by the way, meeting each other blow for blow. So it is not Yoda swinging and Palpatine blocking.
c) When the camera pans back, we see Yoda leap forward and force Sidious onto a lower block, where Yoda uses overhanded swings to try to forcibly beat Palpatine's lightsaber away. But Palpatine forces Yoda back on the outside, and retakes the center position.
Yoda continues to try to break Palpatine's "defense", by flipping around the circumference of the podium. Finally, they get into a saber lock, which Yoda manages to break. They fight for a second more, and then end up in a second saber lock, which ends up with Palpatine "roaring".
d) When we return, Palpatine is without his lightsaber. The RotS script says that he was disarmed (but it should be noted that the script's account of what happened differs from the movie).
The script says that Yoda disarmed Palpatine, and then, for some reason just jumps to a Senate pod. Odd enough for a being whose single goal is to kill his enemy. However, if Palpatine were disarmed, it speaks well for him to be able to evade a fully-armed Yoda and be able to put some considerable distance between them.
e) Yoda jumps to the first repulsor-pod. Palpatine cackles and rips three of them from their moorings, and throws them directly up behind himself - thus in direct defiance of gravity. He then uses the Force to take hold of one, and chucks it at Yoda.
Each one he chucks, Yoda dodges. But the final one, Yoda falls. He puts away his saber as Palpatine chucks the last pod. Yoda catches it, spins it, and sends it back while Palpatine cackles (odd behavior on Palpatine's part as well . . .). As the pod gets forward, Sidious stares at it, cocks his head, and says "eh?". Then, he snarls and jumps away at the last moment.
f) Palpatine hands feet-first in a repulsorpod and looks around. Yoda jumps up and lands on the rail and ignites his saber. Palpatine reaches out and blasts it from Yoda's hand.
Yoda nearly teeters off the side, but regains his footing and catches the lightning. Palpatine uses his other hand to blast some more lightning, but Yoda catches it in his free hand as well. Palpatine, who is the one generating the energy, moves closer to Yoda - who must remain stationary.
Yoda grimaces and leans back. Palpatine cackles. Yoda glares at him. Palpatine gasps.
Take a note:
The "energy ball" formed from Palpatine's coiled lightnings is closer to Yoda than it is Palpatine. I will try to provide you with an accurate shot of this. The lightning is pouring from his fingertips and just stops short of Yoda's.
Yoda does not push the energy ball at Palpatine!!! contrary to popular belief. The energy ball never touches Palpatine.
What Yoda did was put the energy ball right in between them both. It goes off and flings them both back.
Ending in a stalemate.
Originally posted by Admiral Akbar
Of course I'm going to argue that, when it comes to a rather small area on a pod size does matter. And seeing as how Sidious is bigger, he is able to take up more space and therefore create an advantage.I do think Yoda outclasses him. Even Sidious thinks so. Wasn't he the one trying to escape? and "survive?"
WTF. Do you know what outclass means?
Yoda does not outclass Palpatine. If he did, he would have won the fight.
Mace Windu invented and mastered the greatest (imo) and deadliest saber form (this is said in many different sources, from both in-universe and out-of-universe perceptions. Vaapad was a 'completion' of Juyo, which was considered as great as Makashi (the saber form bred for dueling) in terms of dueling and overall imo was one of the greatest forms. Vaapad completed it with the addition of a few manoeuvres and the nature of Vaapad was to rely on your inner darkness and enjoy the duel with passion (Mace Windu was very dark inside)).
Only a few ever mastered it without falling to the darkside, and the fact that Mace not only mastered it but created it implies an extremely strong willpower and great control over emotions. It is the darkest form and most aggressive, and Mace Windu was The Master of it, yet he has proven that he can defend exceptionally as well. This is when he dueled palpatine, and seeing as both of their forms were extremely aggressive and overwhelming, he knew that he had to be careful and insure that their styles wouldn't clash in an unpredictable way, so he instead decided to battle in a defencive stance and was still able to defeat Palpatine (the same guy who was able to kill 3 jedi masters in about 4 seconds). People would argue that Palpatine faked it and went easy on him but the way I saw it, palpatine wasn't powerful enough to be able to plan and predict getting disarmed by Mace. That and GL basically confirmed that Mace won because he was more powerful.
His unique shatterpoint ability enabled him to sense weaknesses in his opponents and solutions to every battle.
His advance battle precognition ability enabled him to always predict his opponent's next move and made him virtually invincible.
He is stated in several sources to be a saber prodigy and one of the greatest the order had ever seen, and when compared to Yoda, he is considered the most powerful while Yoda was considered the wisest (however Mace was also very wise, Yoda was the only jedi that was wiser).
He was also the physically strongest and fastest jedi, and extremely strong in the force (he displays this in the CW cartoons (for example when he is able to singlehandedly defeat an army of B-2 battle droids and a massive seismic tank, without his lightsaber for much of the battle), Shatterpoint (goes without saying) and other pieces of the EU (for example when he defeats Grievous with the force multiple times in about 1 second)).
He has also displayed the ability to defend exceptionally against the force (for example in ROTS against Palpatine, when he is not only able to block Palpatine's lightning, but also redirect it and scar the sith lord for life).
Yoda seriously can't touch him.
Originally posted by Escape81
WTF. Do you know what outclass means?Yoda does not outclass Palpatine. If he did, he would have won the fight.
He should have the only thing that got in his way were the clones (Sids request for backup) and that he fell a few stories down. Other than that Sidious was running away from Yoda the whole fight. If Sidious was such a great duelist and force user than he should have beat yoda, but he instead like I mentioned was attempting to flee everytime, thats where I get the impression Yoda outclasses him.
Originally posted by Admiral Akbar
He should have the only thing that got in his way were the clones (Sids request for backup) and that he fell a few stories down. Other than that Sidious was running away from Yoda the whole fight. If Sidious was such a great duelist and force user than he should have beat yoda, but he instead like I mentioned was attempting to flee everytime, thats where I get the impression Yoda outclasses him.
You're an idiot.
You tell me when the Clones interferred in the fight or when Yoda was in danger of them.
If Yoda outclassed him, the fight would've been over in a few seconds. So quit trying to argue otherwise.