Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I havent read or heard that before either. If that was the case then that contradicts everything we heard about the Infinity Being. The gems were created from his body on the event of his death and he killed himself out of loneliness, because he was the ONLY being alive in the multiverse at one point. That would suggest that they are indeed unique in the multiverse. They do however only have universal level power, thats conclusive.
that's new to me as well.
as for eternity being a multiversal being -- he was indeed portrayed that way in a defenders mini. course, dormammu also beat him down, so . . . i'm not sure how much stock to put in that series.
and lordU:
<<IF ALE is multiversal than yeah, it has more jurisdiction in terms of universes and space, but what can you DO with it. Is it just something that ends all life? Or is is a reality altering thing, no one answered my question about that.>>
i already did answer this. the ale has been presented in a variety of ways. i also mentioned that it is open to the interpretations of the writer and listed a few of its past in-book incarnations. again, dc's cosmology is different from marvel's. i'm not even sure it's technically correct to claim dc HAS a multiverse. afterall, that WAS the whole point of the first crisis . . .
{i already did answer this. the ale has been presented in a variety of ways. i also mentioned that it is open to the interpretations of the writer and listed a few of its past in-book incarnations. again, dc's cosmology is different from marvel's. i'm not even sure it's technically correct to claim dc HAS a multiverse. afterall, that WAS the whole point of the first crisis . . .}
Sorry, I never read up on that. What thread was that on? This one ? I'll try and check it out.
So DC may not have a multiverse anyway ?
All I'm going on ALE is by what I hear, and so far everyone says its mostly up for interpretation.
Either way, even if ALE is multiversal, that doesn't automatically mean it can subject one universe down if that universe has its own defense such as Thanos w Infitini Gauntlet.
Even though its been retconned, I am going by the original Infiniti Gauntlet saga and Thanos Quest intepretations, Retcon can be bull sometimes, especially since this ret con is so recent.
The Infiniti Gems belonged to a multiversal being, his essense was the only one that existed within any and all realities. I believe the IG at the time was meant to have power beyond the scope of just one universe.
However, even if I am wrong, Darksied with ALE would still have a difficult time defeating Thanos with IG.
I'm gonna start doing my own research, because this multiversal vs universal thing has so many contradictions of these threads. Some ppl claim that Lucifer and Micheal are multiversal, yet someone else said that that is just information of fanboy sites, and in the comic books themselves i only heard Yahweh explaining that his actions would send the Universe back in time.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
{i already did answer this. the ale has been presented in a variety of ways. i also mentioned that it is open to the interpretations of the writer and listed a few of its past in-book incarnations. again, dc's cosmology is different from marvel's. i'm not even sure it's technically correct to claim dc HAS a multiverse. afterall, that WAS the whole point of the first crisis . . .}Sorry, I never read up on that. What thread was that on? This one ? I'll try and check it out.
So DC may not have a multiverse anyway ?
All I'm going on ALE is by what I hear, and so far everyone says its mostly up for interpretation.
Either way, even if ALE is multiversal, that doesn't automatically mean it can subject one universe down if that universe has its own defense such as Thanos w Infitini Gauntlet.
Even though its been retconned, I am going by the original Infiniti Gauntlet saga and Thanos Quest intepretations, Retcon can be bull sometimes, especially since this ret con is so recent.
The Infiniti Gems belonged to a multiversal being, his essense was the only one that existed within any and all realities. I believe the IG at the time was meant to have power beyond the scope of just one universe.
However, even if I am wrong, Darksied with ALE would still have a difficult time defeating Thanos with IG.
I'm gonna start doing my own research, because this multiversal vs universal thing has so many contradictions of these threads. Some ppl claim that Lucifer and Micheal are multiversal, yet someone else said that that is just information of fanboy sites, and in the comic books themselves i only heard Yahweh explaining that his actions would send the Universe back in time.
1) You cannot decide to ignore current continuity because you favour a previous interpretation. Doesnt work like that. We go by whats canon.
2) The Infinity Being was NOT a multiversal being, he was at one point the only being alive in the multiverse. BIG difference. The fact that he died and his power was retained in the form of the very universal I Gems says it all. Either way thats not current continuity so we no longer need to refer to him. Whether you like that or not is irrelevant. Its just how it is.
{1) You cannot decide to ignore current continuity because you favour a previous interpretation. Doesnt work like that. We go by whats canon. }
I'm not ignoring it. Earlier I said regardless of retcon or not, if ALE is multiversal and IG is universal Darksied may have the ultmate upper hand. However, that doesn't mean he has absolute power over one universe is if has it's own defense like IG...
I asked you WHAT DOES THE ALE DO ? you never answered my question
If all it does is Destroy Life on a Multiversal basis, IG can still deflect that since it would make Thanos supreme being of HIS ONE UNIVERSE.
Thanos could deny that action to whichever UNIVERSE he is in charge of.
NOW...if ALE is a reality altering object on a multiversal scale...THEN.....it would be like 10000 IG's and therefore its reality altering abilities would overpower Infitini Gauntlet's.
BRO did you even read my arguments? I SAID I LIKED THE PHEONIX FORCE IDEA...I LOVE PHEONIX and i was more than willing to accept her dominion over Marvel.
However, the IG retcon , in my opinion, is BS....has nothing to do with whether or not i like it. I actually prefer Pheonix is supreme essense, but it is still BS since in IGauntlet and Thanos Quest they had aLREADY set up the supreme foundation.
{2) The Infinity Being was NOT a multiversal being, he was at one point the only being alive in the multiverse. BIG difference. The fact that he died and his power was retained in the form of the very universal I Gems says it all. Either way thats not current continuity so we no longer need to refer to him. Whether you like that or not is irrelevant. Its just how it is.}
If the Infiniti Being was the only being that existed within all the realities in the multiverse, than yes he was a multiversal being. He was the only one that existed. It's like when they say Lucifer is the only "Lucifer" that exists in DC/Vertigos Multiverse, he's not equal to the combined strength of every single universe, but he can easily exist with his full power and affect numerous universes (according to Lucifer fans)
At the time, I don't think Marvel had a "multiverse". I beleive when IG came out they centered all thier events in one universe, the way Image does.
I beleive, not like or dislike, I beleive that at the time Infiniti Gems were meant to be the ultamate in power, but obviously today, since there are new writers and we need to come up with mroe and more ubbber powerful things like fkn DBZ does, they DE POWERED and RET CONNED it.......
I even said that I have to go by that, so you are only repeating what I myself said before.
PLZ read my arguments before you contradict me.
Thanks
<<At the time, I don't think Marvel had a "multiverse". I beleive when IG came out they centered all thier events in one universe, the way Image does.>>
that much at least is not correct. the 'new' universe had already existed and interacted with 616 (did the ig show that it was UNABLE to affect the new universe at some point?). marvel had also (i think) absorbed the malibu universe (which ultimately led to the revelation of a SEVENTH infinity gem -- which i also think was retconned . . .)
on top of that, the ig was shown to be ineffective against malestrom when he donned the 'anomaly' guise and became an agent for oblivion. thanos (with the ig) couldn't even really perceive him, and it was clear that thanos was going to die along with everyone else had not quasar become infinity's champion. obviously, it's power was short of lt's -- or at least lt was able to exert power over it to prevent it from working.
the ig has been shown to have limits -- even dr strange was able to battle the gems when they were used singly against him.
all that's not to say that thanos can't win this still. it would likely depend on what form the ale took in the battle.
you're raising some good points though, lu. way to keep gs on his toes!
😉
{{<<At the time, I don't think Marvel had a "multiverse". I beleive when IG came out they centered all thier events in one universe, the way Image does.>>
that much at least is not correct. the 'new' universe had already existed and interacted with 616 (did the ig show that it was UNABLE to affect the new universe at some point?). marvel had also (i think) absorbed the malibu universe (which ultimately led to the revelation of a SEVENTH infinity gem -- which i also think was retconned . . .)}}}}
Okay I stand corrected
{{on top of that, the ig was shown to be ineffective against malestrom when he donned the 'anomaly' guise and became an agent for oblivion. thanos (with the ig) couldn't even really perceive him, and it was clear that thanos was going to die along with everyone else had not quasar become infinity's champion. obviously, it's power was short of lt's -- or at least lt was able to exert power over it to prevent it from working.}}}
Yeah.....I heard about Malestrom having the Anomaly which made him equivalent to Thanos with Ig, but this was like RIGHT BEFORE the Infiniti Gauntlet Saga. How did that go ? I never saw that battle myself, but someone said that Thanos actually beat him. However, if he would have lost, Malestrom would have been the supreme being.
{{the ig has been shown to have limits -- even dr strange was able to battle the gems when they were used singly against him.}}
When and against who? I don't beleive it's the GEMS that have the limits, I beleive it is the person who is using them. Nebula with the IG was stopped easily by Adam Warlock for two reasons: 1) He was already linked with the Soul Gem, and 2) She wasn't anywhere as mature or cunning as Thanos was to handle such a shock of immediate power.
{{all that's not to say that thanos can't win this still. it would likely depend on what form the ale took in the battle.}}}
True...but what does the ALE do ? Just because its multiversal doesnt mean its absolute victory over IG. It depends what it does. If it doesn't allow for reality bending, then IG still has it. Like i said many times before, Thanos with IG can defend his universe and himself against a multiversal threat, if he wills it to be so in his universe.
He's not just the boss of all territory within the Universe with IG, he is also incharge of its physics and concepts (like death, reality etc.)
Even if Darksied used ALE to try and completely destroy Thanos and his universe, Thanos can wish it not to occur, and it won't. Atleast not in that universe, since everyone is saying its power is universal.
{{{you're raising some good points though, lu. way to keep gs on his toes!}}}}
Thanks lol. i'm not against GS, I do love the Pheonix force and accepted the retcon of IG, but GS doesn't seem to bother reading any of my posts. He just responds, he's never even answered some of my questions.
{{Thats a pretty good way of thinking of it and it makes sense. May the glove can't affect on a multiversal scale but that may mean the powers are new absolute in that one universe.}}
Thanks bro.
I figured that even if IG is just universal, it still grants it wielder absolute authority over that one universe, unless that was retconned also lol.
I should do more research on ALE though, then my opinion will be more solid.
{{One thing I always hated was the way the Gauntlet was absolute. Now I am not sure anymore because the HOTU makes it very confusing. Some how one end of \ Infinity is less than another}}
I sorta liked it. It made the threat absolutely serious, and it gave this "No Hope" kinda deal for the forces of good, which should be done more often. Well that's just my opinion.
As for HOTU....to quote GS one set of Infiniti can be greater than another. The Prime #'s vs All Numbers deal, ask him about that.
Even if IG isn't truly infinite in terms of spacial range and universal/multiversal jurisdiction, it is infinite in terms of possibility.
I'd say this might be how the Gems range:
Time: Affects all aspects of the Timeline, even Chronos couldn't overpower
Space: Only affects the space that Universe 616 contains
Soul: affects all souls in Universe 616, dead or alive
Reality: Infinite amount of reality warping, no limit, the only limit is your imagination...do you think you can EXPAND the size of you universe or merge it with others? I mean if you could easily wipe OUT your universe with IG, then why can't u expand, replicate, or fuse it with another ?????
Power: Infinite Power, in terms of Energy Manipulation, The energy source probably recreates itself therefore supplying unlimitted force
Mind: Control and influence over all minds in Universe 616
Hey, I could be wrong though.
and Yeah, HOTU makes everything confusing now. I think they just needed to come up with something they thought would be even "cooler " and "better" than IG and Pheonix and Living Tribunal.
Can't they be more creative? How cheesy to just CONTINUE finding something more powerful, and more powerful, and more powerful, and more powerful, in all honestly if the HOTU is multiversal and above the LT and equal to TOAA, then NO ONE should be able to contain it, not even mighty Thanos.
Damn I hate typo's. Its funny how a period can make a point sound completely different. I meant that I loved the IG saga and how (as you stated) It gave the user unmatched power over all basically. The HOTU just took away what made the IG so great. The IG'sS have a history even before the saga began, aand it ties in to everything. What I hated was that the HOTU seemed to have come out of no where. It was just an ultimate power that no one new about. It did not have the depth or the better story that the IG had.
<<As for HOTU....to quote GS one set of Infiniti can be greater than another. The Prime #'s vs All Numbers deal, ask him about that.>>
lol then ask him who he first heard raise that point. 😉
and because you seem to have missed this post, here's a little bit more on the ale and its incarnations in the dcu:
Originally posted by leonidas
as far as the ale, like i said it has had many interpretations. starlin saw it as a living creature, capable of casually destroying entire dimensions and with power to destroy the universe. in emperor joker, darkseid says that joker somehow stumbled on the equation which implies the equation may be somehow related to the 5d imps and their ability to control reality. there are others, but what's clear is that it really is open to interpretations of writers. if it granted imp-like control of the universe, as well as the full power of command or mental usurpation, 'seid would certainly be a very real threat to thanos.about your question regarding darkseid -- in rock of ages, it was alluded that in a future timeline ds DID gain the equation and easily conquered earth and new genesis with it, but not much more was said i don't think.
it's an interesting match up. i've always found the ale fascinating, not least because kirby left it as such a mystery (sort of like dickens' "edwin drood"!) it would be cool if someone did a definitive version of it though. 🙁
😄
{{{Damn I hate typo's. Its funny how a period can make a point sound completely different. I meant that I loved the IG saga and how (as you stated) It gave the user unmatched power over all basically. The HOTU just took away what made the IG so great. The IG'sS have a history even before the saga began, aand it ties in to everything. What I hated was that the HOTU seemed to have come out of no where. It was just an ultimate power that no one new about. It did not have the depth or the better story that the IG had.}}}
No...it really didn't. HOTU seems like a desperate attempt to impress either Thanos fan boys (I being one of them), or to come up with something that fans would take "seriously" or for something to stand out among the millions of alternate titles each main character has.
The Infiniti Gems do have a long, developed, and established history within the Marvel mythos.
That retcon deal is total BS, obviously some new writer thought that he or she could come up with sum deal "better" than IG...some people should know when to leave a classic alone.
The Infiniti Gauntlet was perfect....it should be looked back nostalgically, not as past BS......HOTU saga destroyed the beauty and minimized the solid power that Infinity Gauntlet brought to Marvel.
Well how are they gonna top HOTU ?
ultra super mega Onslaught plus Thanos plus Galactus plus Living Tribunal fused together who absorb Darksied, Spectre, Lucifer, Micheal, Spawn, and all the DBZ characters and its the ultamate ultra super mega hyper mega ominversal threat of DOOM doometyy doom doom doom of DEATH !!!!!!!!!!
Who can stop this ??!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?
Why...Superman makes an alliance with Spiderman, and together the two stand for Justice and the American way and SOMEHOWWWW defeat this monstrosity !!!!!!!!!!!!!
With Supreme Beings and more Artifacts of Absolute Power, creativity and originality become so fkn limitted.....
{{{as far as the ale, like i said it has had many interpretations. starlin saw it as a living creature, capable of casually destroying entire dimensions and with power to destroy the universe. in emperor joker, darkseid says that joker somehow stumbled on the equation which implies the equation may be somehow related to the 5d imps and their ability to control reality. there are others, but what's clear is that it really is open to interpretations of writers. if it granted imp-like control of the universe, as well as the full power of command or mental usurpation, 'seid would certainly be a very real threat to thanos.
about your question regarding darkseid -- in rock of ages, it was alluded that in a future timeline ds DID gain the equation and easily conquered earth and new genesis with it, but not much more was said i don't think.
it's an interesting match up. i've always found the ale fascinating, not least because kirby left it as such a mystery (sort of like dickens' "edwin drood"!) it would be cool if someone did a definitive version of it though.}}}
Thanks Leo
Okay so this is my prediction:
If ALE only possesses the power to destroy multiple Universes, than theres no guarantee it can destoy a Universe defended by Thanos with the Infinity Gauntlet. Like i said before, Thanos would control the reality and physics and all concepts of his chosen Universe and DISallow the ALE to affect that one universe. Thanos would hold strong against Darkseid, whose to say if they were both in the same reality that Thanos couldn't simply read Darkseid' mind and usurp the knowledge and the equation solution itself from Darksied ?
But
If the ALE is an actual Reality Warping Tool on a multiversal scale, than obviously it would be like 100000000 Infinity Gauntlets versus ONE Infinity Gauntlet (Depending how many universes a multiverse has) then Darksied would totally win this.
However this is my problem with that:
Several arguments have stated that DC doesn't actually have an official multiverse like Marvel does, Crisis broke one universe into many or something of that sort. (correct me if mistaken)
And it's called The Anti Life Equation.....It seems to be a Vast Death mechanism, not a reality altering tool from its name. Just because it allows its possessor to destroy universe at WILL...does not mean it can change the laws and concepts of any reality.
an example of of this can be seen in too other situations to a lesser extent:
1. The demon Mephisto as well as the asgardians have both shown that they are empowered by their realm. The Mephisto has lost to the surfer on earth but could not be destroyed in his realm.
2. Scarlet which has been stated to not only affect this universe but it was able to have an affect on others because of the house of M. Having powers that affect a multiverse does not necessarily equal dominion over one who has universal power.