Thanos with IG vs. Darkseid with ALE

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
[BSeveral arguments have stated that DC doesn't actually have an official multiverse like Marvel does, Crisis broke one universe into many or something of that sort. (correct me if mistaken)

And it's called The Anti Life Equation.....It seems to be a Vast Death mechanism, not a reality altering tool from its name. Just because it allows its possessor to destroy universe at WILL...does not mean it can change the laws and concepts of any reality. [/B]

crisis took the complex dc MULTIVERSE and made it into a more coherent UNIVERSE. not sure how vertigo fits in current continuity in dc. there has been overlap at times, but i'm not sure if those times are canon or have been retconned. the 5th dimension may also be said to be outside of dcu's version of 616, but again, i'm not sure if the alternate dimensions in dc are actually considered PART of the entire dcu.

one thing the ale has never been is a death machine. the anti-life name refers to the fact that it dominates all will -- a being without a will of its own is like a being who is dead! it has also been portrayed in orion as the instrument of ultimate/supreme order as everything obeys it.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Big Sexy...UR BIG...and UR SEXY

Thanks for backing me up there ! 😉

Originally posted by leonidas
crisis took the complex dc MULTIVERSE and made it into a more coherent UNIVERSE. not sure how vertigo fits in current continuity in dc. there has been overlap at times, but i'm not sure if those times are canon or have been retconned. the 5th dimension may also be said to be outside of dcu's version of 616, but again, i'm not sure if the alternate dimensions in dc are actually considered PART of the entire dcu.

one thing the ale has never been is a death machine. the anti-life name refers to the fact that it dominates all will -- a being without a will of its own is like a being who is dead! it has also been portrayed in orion as the instrument of ultimate/supreme order as everything obeys it.

How does will affect a power that could change the very definition of will.

{i dont think it means that the IG can servive the ALE forever.}

Hmmm..you may be right Mider. But.....If the Infinity Gauntlet is INFINITE in power, which I beleive it is, then yeah it could surive the ALE forever. Remember TIME and POWER are not an obstacle with IG...

Time: Control of Marvel's Timeline, I'm pretty sure this GEM could put out for as long as the Wielder deems necessary. Whose to say Time cannot freeze or be altered to fit Thanos' needs in this scenario.

Power: Infinite Power, unlimitted energy source, I don't thnk this can be challenged as anything other than fact. I imagine that the Power Gem keeps re creating new energy or has a truly infinite source to feed from. If this is the case, then the Power Gem can supply Thanos with power for the rest of eternity, as long as Thanos himself doesn't tire out of constantly deflecting the ALE.

{crisis took the complex dc MULTIVERSE and made it into a more coherent UNIVERSE. not sure how vertigo fits in current continuity in dc. there has been overlap at times, but i'm not sure if those times are canon or have been retconned. the 5th dimension may also be said to be outside of dcu's version of 616, but again, i'm not sure if the alternate dimensions in dc are actually considered PART of the entire dcu.}}}}}}

Thanks for clearing that up. I never got what Crisis was actually about LOL

{{{one thing the ale has never been is a death machine. the anti-life name refers to the fact that it dominates all will -- a being without a will of its own is like a being who is dead! it has also been portrayed in orion as the instrument of ultimate/supreme order as everything obeys it.}}}

Okay....no death machine theory then...I take that back.

Hmm...well this would be sorta like IF the MIND GEM was on a multiversal scale. The Mind Gem, ANd the Soul Gem, allows you to VIOLATE the identity of ANY and ALL individuals, take thier free will away and supply your own desires into them (as Thanos stated in Quest)

Too Bad Thanos didn't actually USE all of this in IG Saga.....he could have done soo much more than he DID according to Thanos Quest.

To tell u the truth, Thanos Quest impressed me more than IG itself. The statements of what you COULD do with these Gems were more impressive than what Thanos actually DID with them in IG.

Anyways, on topic.....okay so lets say Darkseid is putting numerous realities under his control with ALE, since the ALE is a tool of SUPREME ORDER...then he stumbles upon the Universe with Thanos and his IG

.....Thanos is already the Supreme Being of this one universe. His jurisdiction cannot be overturned since he controls the reality, physics, concepts, and laws of this universe. I beleive...that any order Darkseid would give with ALE to this one universe would be defied by Thanos w IG.

Let's just say for hell's sake that Thanos decided to DESTROY the entire universe he was in with IG, could Darkseid with ALE revive the universe? How can he command it if it no longer existed ? Could the ALE over turn Thanos' IG command?

{How does will affect a power that could change the very definition of will.}

OMG...i didnt even consider that.....what about THAT ????

if the ALE is all that and a bag of chips it might eventually bypass the power of the IG though

{if the ALE is all that and a bag of chips it might eventually bypass the power of the IG though}

But how ? If IG has Infinite endurance in both Time and Power, how could ALE surpass it in time?

I understand that one Infinity could be greater or more complete than another Infinity, but NEITHER Infinity comes to an end.

There would be no "which power dies out first" since they would both last forever.

yeah but its still greater, the IG isnt the absolute power in the multiverse supposidly the HOTU is greater and so it would eventually fall to a greater power if the IG went against the classic beyonder it would lose as well

{{yeah but its still greater, the IG isnt the absolute power in the multiverse supposidly the HOTU is greater and so it would eventually fall to a greater power if the IG went against the classic beyonder it would lose as well}}}

No doubt that IG would lose to Classic Beyonder, since Classic Beyonder is above even LT and is supposed to have the same power as the comic book writers themselves. No authority anywhere except the writers can control Classic Beyonder.

I don't know anything much about the HOTU, except that I think it's a cheesy idea, so I can't argue there.

And while on topic of ALE vs IG, I didn't say IG was absolute in power to the multiverse, I said it is INFINITE and therefore its supply would not end.

It depends what Greater Power you are talking about. ALE forces the possessor's will onto multiple universes, while IG is an Infinitely Versatile Reality Warping Tool.

I've already stated that neither command power source would END since that struggle could go on FOREVER, and you haven't proven otherwise. Both sources are Infinite, ALE just happens to have more SPACE JURISDICTION, while IG works one universe at a time.

Whatever command ALE forces upon one universe, Thanos with IG can revert, change, or deny it if he is in that universe.

AS MANY TIMES AS HE PLEASES because his power would go on FOREVER....his WILL, however, may have its own limits.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen

I'm not ignoring it. Earlier I said regardless of retcon or not, if ALE is multiversal and IG is universal Darksied may have the ultmate upper hand. However, that doesn't mean he has absolute power over one universe is if has it's own defense like IG...

Youre still talking in terms of the early 90's. Greater powers have been introduced or at least clarified in Marvel meaning that the IG doesnt give total control over a universe. Talking in terms of current continuity it is merely a conduit for the power of the Big Bang and as such we know both Phoenix nad HOTU offer far greater control.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
{I asked you WHAT DOES THE ALE DO ? you never answered my question

If you were to re-read my posts you would see i have yet to present an argument for the A.L.E, right now im just dismissing your misconceptions pertaining to the IG. You have been told time and time again what the ALE can do, all you have to is google the thing, youre in a debate, take some initiative. 😉

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
BRO did you even read my arguments? I SAID I LIKED THE PHEONIX FORCE IDEA...I LOVE PHEONIX and i was more than willing to accept her dominion over Marvel.

Yeah, but what does that have to do with this argument? 😕

Im not trying to further Phoenuxes position because thats unnecessary, ive referred to the character a few times to clue you up in curent continuity. Thats all. 🙂

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
However, the IG retcon , in my opinion, is BS....has nothing to do with whether or not i like it. I actually prefer Pheonix is supreme essense, but it is still BS since in IGauntlet and Thanos Quest they had aLREADY set up the supreme foundation.

It isnt BS cos in the same way Phoenix was stated to be the Big Bang and the life force of creation many a time, long before Thanos Quest. Retcons happen all the time in comics, deal with it. If you actually like Phoenix then stop whining in every post that you think its BS cos its changed whats come before. Thanos Quest did exactly the same thing.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
If the Infiniti Being was the only being that existed within all the realities in the multiverse, than yes he was a multiversal being. He was the only one that existed. It's like when they say Lucifer is the only "Lucifer" that exists in DC/Vertigos Multiverse, he's not equal to the combined strength of every single universe, but he can easily exist with his full power and affect numerous universes (according to Lucifer fans)

And yet as conclusively shown his power was strictly universal, therefore the Infinity Being was not multiversal in a manner that will affect this debate. LT is multiversal not only because he is unique in the multiverse, but because he is attuned to all events in creation and he has proven jurisdiction against virtually all across the multiverse. The Infinity Being was just the first being to come alive in a universe. Not the same at all. Either way lets stop going on about the I Being he;s been retconned he's currently a non factor and therefore bringing him up has no bearing on this debate.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
At the time, I don't think Marvel had a "multiverse". I beleive when IG came out they centered all thier events in one universe, the way Image does.

Not very observant are you? 😉 Have you forgotten about the What Ifs, The New Universe, The Beyond Realm? Marvel had and referred to a multiverse back in the 80's for definite.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I beleive, not like or dislike, I beleive that at the time Infiniti Gems were meant to be the ultamate in power, but obviously today, since there are new writers and we need to come up with mroe and more ubbber powerful things like fkn DBZ does, they DE POWERED and RET CONNED it.......

I even said that I have to go by that, so you are only repeating what I myself said before.

PLZ read my arguments before you contradict me.

Thanks

Dont get smart with me son. If you stopped repeating the same points over and over and stopped giving the same sob story about the former glory of the IG, whilst at the same time trying toargue in terms of former continuity then i wouldnt consistently relay to you your misconceptions.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen

And while on topic of ALE vs IG, I didn't say IG was absolute in power to the multiverse, I said it is INFINITE and therefore its supply would not end.

It depends what Greater Power you are talking about. ALE forces the possessor's will onto multiple universes, while IG is an Infinitely Versatile Reality Warping Tool.

I've already stated that neither command power source would END since that struggle could go on FOREVER, and you haven't proven otherwise. Both sources are Infinite, ALE just happens to have more SPACE JURISDICTION, while IG works one universe at a time.

Whatever command ALE forces upon one universe, Thanos with IG can revert, change, or deny it if he is in that universe.

Have you completely bypassed all the references to the IGs current status? You're still completely missing the point.

As i tried to explain to you before and as you told me you supposedly understood, there are levels of infinity. The IG's power is neither as great in scale as a multiversal source or in supply. Why? Because its power stems from a single universe. Marvels universes are closed systems, they are FINITE. At the moment of creation, at the point of the Big Bang all energy that will ever exist IS. Dont you remember the whole Phoenix consuming the life energy of future generations thing in Excalibur? Here are some scans of Galactus and Phoenix from Excalibur 61:

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=5/13104581516.jpg&s=f5

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=5/13104591338.jpg&s=f5

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=5/12206095335.jpg&s=x402

So against a multiversal foe the IG would simply be outclassed. The energy contained within a universe is finite. Why do you think i was saying earlier dont get caught up on the definition of the word infinity. Words like infinite, limitless, invulnerable are thrown around all the time in comics, you would be naive to take them literally in the first place and incredibly foolish to do so given the wealth of on panel evidence to the contrary.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
{if the ALE is all that and a bag of chips it might eventually bypass the power of the IG though}

But how ? If IG has Infinite endurance in both Time and Power, how could ALE surpass it in time?

I understand that one Infinity could be greater or more complete than another Infinity, but NEITHER Infinity comes to an end.

There would be no "which power dies out first" since they would both last forever.

The IG is a conduit for VIRTUALLy infinite power. Remember that.

the ALE is just a better conduit

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Dont get smart with me son. If you stopped repeating the same points over and over and stopped giving the same sob story about the former glory of the IG, whilst at the same time trying toargue in terms of former continuity then i wouldnt consistently relay to you your misconceptions.

making friends and influencing people gs style. 😉

😆

{{{{{{If you were to re-read my posts you would see i have yet to present an argument for the A.L.E, right now im just dismissing your misconceptions pertaining to the IG. You have been told time and time again what the ALE can do, all you have to is google the thing, youre in a debate, take some initiative. }}}}}

Bro, I already found out what the ALE does from somewhere else, thanks already.

{{{{It isnt BS cos in the same way Phoenix was stated to be the Big Bang and the life force of creation many a time, long before Thanos Quest. Retcons happen all the time in comics, deal with it. If you actually like Phoenix then stop whining in every post that you think its BS cos its changed whats come before. Thanos Quest did exactly the same thing.}}}}}

First of all I'm not whining about IG or Pheonix retcons. I think retcons in general are BS, Crossgen never did such a thing, but that's besides the point. I do like Pheonix and its idea, but just because I like it doesn't make the inconsistancy cool. I just think retcons are BS, regardless of whether or not they go into my favor.

{{{Have you completely bypassed all the references to the IGs current status? You're still completely missing the point. }}}

No I have not. I've been aware of IG's current status. I just think it's BS, and I've been going back and forth referring to both current IG and classic IG.

Obviously in CURRENT IG status, the ALE would beat it since "current" IG is not even truly infinite.

However, the Gems were once MEANT to be Infinite, and if the gems had retained thier original status, they my points for its power against ALE would be totally valid.

OBVIOUSLY today's IG is no match for today's ALE, so why is there even a match up then? Anyways who started this forum? I'd ask him/her which IG they were referring to. Back then was when the IG actually took place, today the IG's aren't even used, so whats the point of referring to today's versions of them ? Especially if Pheonix is stronger.

{{{As i tried to explain to you before and as you told me you supposedly understood, there are levels of infinity. The IG's power is neither as great in scale as a multiversal source or in supply. Why? Because its power stems from a single universe. Marvels universes are closed systems, they are FINITE. At the moment of creation, at the point of the Big Bang all energy that will ever exist IS. Dont you remember the whole Phoenix consuming the life energy of future generations thing in Excalibur? Here are some scans of Galactus and Phoenix from Excalibur 61:}}}}

EXACTLY my point about the Retcon of IG now. According to the NEW ideas of IG, the Infinity Gems aren't even infinite. They shouldn't be called the Infinity Gems ne more, if this is the case now, they should be called "the USED-TO be Infinity Gems"....i personally think its a rip off that the gems go from belonging to a Supreme Being to just being part of the Big Bang, below Pheonix in Heirarchy. I don't care if you want me to accept it, i said I already did, but I'm just telling you why I am not referring to current IG....

that's all

{{{{Dont get smart with me son. If you stopped repeating the same points over and over and stopped giving the same sob story about the former glory of the IG, whilst at the same time trying toargue in terms of former continuity then i wouldnt consistently relay to you your misconceptions.}}}}

First of all, I'm not responding to that first sentence, it's unnecessary and ineffective. I can say whatever the hell I want as long as it doesn
t directly offend anyone here.

Same points over and over...because I'm arguing with different people here bro.....who coincidently make similiar arguments to you. Don't even talk about repeating myself, same goes for you here.

My misconceptions? Because I choose not to refer to current IG ? I can refer to whichever IG I choose....the classic version of IG actually GIVES me validity to ANY of my point...current IG is no match for current ALE...there should be no debate there.

Ask everyone else which IG they were referring to.

It's like MIDER and many others referring to Classic Beyonder. Obviously he was retconned, today's version of himself is a muchhh weaker one than back then, but almost everyone here refers to him when trying to make a point.

I can't do the same with IG ? Refer to its original ideas instead of the BS that the NEW writers came up with ?

Personally, and this may be off topic, I like old Marvel better than today. I lost my interest in most current Marvel stories, because it seems to me they ran outta creativity for the most part. I'm not stating this section as fact, just opinion so dont jump my throat here GS

Originally posted by Mider
the ALE is just a better conduit

it being multiversal the IG isnt multiversal

Just understand that from now forward, any arguments i made about the IG are referring to classic Infinity Gems mythology, not the current ret con, because CURRENT ret con IG is obviously muchh weaker than ALE, and MUCH WEAKER than its original intended power.