Originally posted by -hh-
here's proof that you dont need muscle to defeat your opponent.Nakamura vs "The Cyborg"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2p_6KhYVsno&search=nakamura%20pride
Nice!! Skill is definetly the determining factor in any fight. Damn, I am going to have to start watching Pride again! 😛
Originally posted by spidergrl
Just popped in to say hi, been off school trying to get rid of this cold im getting before I go away. Agh, Vietnam ... here Hayley Comes!
hi, how are ya?ill MSN you next time ur on.
that fight was definetly owned by the jap dude, i think the brazilian needs abit more training in ground fighting and grapels and stuff.
Originally posted by Soljer
Oh HELL no. **** being civilized, the gloves are off now, *****! 😠Haha, I kid. Seriously though, no style is 100% superior to another, the fighters USING it are. Meh. One Judoka may be better than one jiu jitsu practicioner, but I promise you that there is another BJJ practicioner that is superior to that first judoka.
Oh, 😮 and, I'm a little biased because I'm nearly a purple belt in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.
....
In my defense, though, I also was a boxer for some time, so I have at least half of my striking game down, my legs lack the speed required to put in some real devastating kicks, though. Haha, I DID find, however, that something I NEVER would have expected to help...helped. I don't have the speed on kicks, but shin blocks? I mean, to block low roundhouses, and the like? Hacky Sack! It imbues foot-eye coordination, along with speed and reflexes in the legs, like you wouldn't believe! Imagine hacky sack being part of some of the top MMA fighters' training. I'd love to see Silva sitting in a circle of high school kids "One..two...three...shit." 😆
Meh, I prefer going to ground and pound/submission than sheer stand-up, though, so I suppose I don't really NEED to have the fastest front kick or roundhouse.
Moving on, like I said, I don't think the gracies were bad Vale Tudo fighters, nor were they the best. But you HAVE to at least respect their ground game. I mean, look at the names you have to pull to say "There are better!" Jesus, Kimura?! KIMURA! Have you ever read up on the guy? He was a BEAST!
Oh, and their dedication. Helio wanted to keep up the fight with a broken arm. Matt Hughes could have easily broken Royce's arm in UFC 60, but let him go out of respect. These are guys that WON'T tap out, that is for damned sure.
Also, is hughes really 180 pounds? I thought he was trimmed down to 170 even. Either way, I could see him moving up into the middle weight division and still managing.
Though, you gotta know, if you are right on the line between weight classes, the smartest thing you could do is lose a pound or two and dominate the weight class beneath you, rather than gain a pound and try desperately to compete with guys that are on the OTHER end of the weight class.
Also, wouldn't wider weight classes make the fights depend LESS on skill? I mean, for at least HALF of the fighters. If you have one fighter that is 180 pounds, and one that is 200 (the approximate weight class of PRIDE middleweight, I believe), then the fighter with another twenty pounds of muscle is gonna have a pretty clear advantage. Versus UFC's middleweight, which is approximately 170-180.
Either way, one thing I LOVE about pride is the ten minute first round. It is especially beautiful for grapplers though; sometimes it's hard to wear a guy down in the first five minutes of a fight. I can attest to having twenty minute grapples with some of my partners, before one of us finally land a submission. The ten minute first round really gives them a better chance, and a more exciting fight.
Good job on that belt. About the kicks. Truthfully, kicks aren't ESSENTIAL to be great. Boxing skills with defense against kicks is perfectly fine from what I've seen.
Hey, don't get me wrong. I didn't mean the Gracies are a joke. I just hate it when people act like they are the gods of fighting. Yeah, I know Kimura was a demon out of Japan but taking down Helio is still a nice feat. Hell, Helio lasting against Kimura is a feat. I still respect the Gracies, I just think they shouldn't toted the way they are by some people. They're good....phenomenal at what they do, but they did descend from a mountain carrying a stone tablet with the Ten Submissions.
When I said weight classes require more skill, I meant smaller fighters have to have more skill. Crocop is VERY small for a heavyweight(around 210 sometimes) and look how he has done. Yeah, it is probably smarter to down in that circumstances but more amazing when you go up and actually starting kicking ass.
I like that about Pride too. The Japanese audience actually understands that grappling is a part of combat too. They are just as impressed by Nogueira slapping a paintbrush on someone as they are with Crocop kicking someone's head off. In UFC, I always see the audience booing when the fight goes to the grown. The grapplers also get stood up long before they can even get a good position. Another thing I love about Pride...you can kick to the head when your opponent is grounded. Pride's ruleset allows a fighter to fight using HIS fighting method. If you strike, you have many ways to to use strikes to beat your opponent. If you grapple, there are many ways AND the time needed to use them to beat your opponent. Pride has one of the most balanced rulesets I know. No one type of fighter is favored there.
Originally posted by StyleTime
lolGood job on that belt. About the kicks. Truthfully, kicks aren't ESSENTIAL to be great. Boxing skills with defense against kicks is perfectly fine from what I've seen.
Hey, don't get me wrong. I didn't mean the Gracies are a joke. I just hate it when people act like they are the gods of fighting. Yeah, I know Kimura was a demon out of Japan but taking down Helio is still a nice feat. Hell, Helio lasting against Kimura is a feat. I still respect the Gracies, I just think they shouldn't toted the way they are by some people. They're good....phenomenal at what they do, but they did descend from a mountain carrying a stone tablet with the Ten Submissions.
When I said weight classes require more skill, I meant smaller fighters have to have more skill. Crocop is VERY small for a heavyweight(around 210 sometimes) and look how he has done. Yeah, it is probably smarter to down in that circumstances but more amazing when you go up and actually starting kicking ass.
I like that about Pride too. The Japanese audience actually understands that grappling is a part of combat too. They are just as impressed by Nogueira slapping a paintbrush on someone as they are with Crocop kicking someone's head off. In UFC, I always see the audience booing when the fight goes to the grown. The grapplers also get stood up long before they can even get a good position. Another thing I love about Pride...you can kick to the head when your opponent is grounded. Pride's ruleset allows a fighter to fight using HIS fighting method. If you strike, you have many ways to to use strikes to beat your opponent. If you grapple, there are many ways AND the time needed to use them to beat your opponent. Pride has one of the most balanced rulesets I know. No one type of fighter is favored there.
You seem fairly knowledgable about, pride, the UFC, and fighting in general. Do you practice as well as a hobby? Or actually go to tournaments? Or do you just like to watch? (Heh, that sounded kinda dirty 😉 ).
Anyways, to say that Kimura was a demon is an understatement. He was like the (unknown version of) bruce lee of ground fighting! He was a 5th dan at 18! He did thousands of push-ups, and (in his prime) would train for nine hours a day! Five foot six and 190 pounds. Good god.
He SCHOOLED gracie, like gracie was his *****! He reportedly had four losses in his life time, and countless victories. He was the All-japan Judo Champion over, and over, and over again. He then beat out Helio, who was the Brazilian champion for over 20 years. Though it wasn't any 'title' match, you could certainly make a case for Kimura being the best from Japan and Brazil. At the time, there wasn't even a large base of ground fighting world wide. I Would be as bold to say he was the best world wide while he lived.
Meh...I don't know, but this guy was INSANE. If you ever wanted to make your case for Judo being superior to BJJ, Kimura would HAVE to be named 😉.
Anyways, enough of me kissing ass to kimura 😘 .
I understand where you are coming from. Go look in the 'greatest martial artist ever' thread. People were actually naming Gracie. Not even Rickson, but Helio or Royce! They may have been some of the most influential to modern MMA, but they certainly weren't the best, by any means! I mean, it is EXACTLY like you said. They are AMAZING at what they do, but they definitely aren't the best. Sakuraba proved that. Kimura proved that. Hughes proved that. (Just to name the popular ones, I'm not about to list every loss by every Gracie to date :-P)
And I figured you meant that the weight classes as they are in pride mean the smaller fighters HAVE to have more skill to participate. However, the opposite is also true, the larger fighters can get by with less. I figure the smaller the weight class, the less discrepancy , you CAN'T see a fighter say "But he was bigger! that's all!"
Though, I would LOVE to see a welter weight (or hell, a fly weight!) go and kick ass in an open weight division. Even if he didn't win, the sheer power, skill, and finesse it would take for someone to be able to consistently beat fighters 100 pounds over his weight.
But still, if YOU were the fighter, and you actually relied on fighting to make a living...would you take the chance at being the 'underdog' no one ever expected? Go up in weight classes, compete, and take THAT kind of chance with your livelihood? Or drop down a pound, and have better odds of dominating? I don't know, I'd rather take the sure thing, then chance it. Even if I would get a TV-movie made about my amazing journey *rolls eyes*.
*nods in agreement again* Yes, we can agree on pride's ruleset, for sure. I love the first round, like I've said. And the audience. Too many UFC viewers want to see kickboxing. To them, I say...go watch Kickboxing. I want to see a (mostly) vale tudo match, damnit!
One thing, though, is (if I recall, I don't have the rules for each competition memorized through and through) you cannot elbow to the head in pride, can you? On the ground or standing up? I understand WHY, of course. An elbow is much more likely to cut the eye, bleed into the eye, and end the fight that way. That's not a very exciting fight. One elbow, and both fighters have to walk away, not even breathing hard.
Though, at times, depending on the positioning you are in (especially on the ground) elbows to the head would be DEVASTATINGLY effective.
The GREAT thing about pride though, is the kicking of opponents on the ground. It eliminates the option of a ground fighter 'turtling,' and presents a more realistic fight. Though, one could argue, the elbows present a more realistic fight too.
Either way.
🏴☠️
Sorry it took so long for my reply, but I was a little busy.
Haha. The last training I had was a couple of years ago. I'd like to get into some more stuff, but that cost money so it might be a little while. I've been sparring some friends from Muay Thai, JJ, etc so I pick up some stuff. That is no substitute for formal training of course, but at least it's something. Regardless, I'll ALWAYS be a fan of MMA, kickboxing, etc. They are the best sports to watch in my opinion.
Kimura was indeed the man. I could also use Fedor for Judo>BJJ 😈
I see what you are saying on the weight classes, but I still think it produces more skilled fighters. Let's move to the K-1 tournament for a second. Andy Hug was probably smaller than CroCop is now, yet he was still considered top tier AND won titles against people who were 50lbs heavier than he was. Striking also tends to favor larger people and Hug was still able to overcome the weight disadvantage.
It's hard to say. It might be easier to own a lower weight class, but not everyone who moves down does better. Loosing weight also means loosing KO power for many fighters. If you are a fighter who depends on KO shots, then you might get your ass handed to you by a smaller, more well rounded fighter. Randleman moved down a weight class and was getting beat like he never fought in his life. On the other hand, if you move up in weight and gain some power that you didn't know you could have and dominate, you'd be feeling pretty proud lol. I believe Mauricio Rua did move up a class, but don't quote me on that.
No, you can't elbow to the head in Pride. You already know why lol. Did you see when CroCop kneed Fujita in the head? Fujita's face was so bloody they had to stop. It would probably be even worse with elbows. You'd have losers like Arona(I hate that guy) come in and just elbow until he drew blood because he knows he sucks. Yes elbows are a VERY effective weapon on the ground or standing though.
Yeah, I hate it when grapplers just turtle up and are actually protected because of the ruleset. It's so awesome when someone turtles and guys like Silva, Rua, and CroCop kick the crap out of them.
Originally posted by StyleTime
Sorry it took so long for my reply, but I was a little busy.Haha. The last training I had was a couple of years ago. I'd like to get into some more stuff, but that cost money so it might be a little while. I've been sparring some friends from Muay Thai, JJ, etc so I pick up some stuff. That is no substitute for formal training of course, but at least it's something. Regardless, I'll ALWAYS be a fan of MMA, kickboxing, etc. They are the best sports to watch in my opinion.
Kimura was indeed the man. I could also use Fedor for Judo>BJJ 😈
I see what you are saying on the weight classes, but I still think it produces more skilled fighters. Let's move to the K-1 tournament for a second. Andy Hug was probably smaller than CroCop is now, yet he was still considered top tier AND won titles against people who were 50lbs heavier than he was. Striking also tends to favor larger people and Hug was still able to overcome the weight disadvantage.
It's hard to say. It might be easier to own a lower weight class, but not everyone who moves down does better. Loosing weight also means loosing KO power for many fighters. If you are a fighter who depends on KO shots, then you might get your ass handed to you by a smaller, more well rounded fighter. Randleman moved down a weight class and was getting beat like he never fought in his life. On the other hand, if you move up in weight and gain some power that you didn't know you could have and dominate, you'd be feeling pretty proud lol. I believe Mauricio Rua did move up a class, but don't quote me on that.
No, you can't elbow to the head in Pride. You already know why lol. Did you see when CroCop kneed Fujita in the head? Fujita's face was so bloody they had to stop. It would probably be even worse with elbows. You'd have losers like Arona(I hate that guy) come in and just elbow until he drew blood because he knows he sucks. Yes elbows are a VERY effective weapon on the ground or standing though.
Yeah, I hate it when grapplers just turtle up and are actually protected because of the ruleset. It's so awesome when someone turtles and guys like Silva, Rua, and CroCop kick the crap out of them.
Sorry it took ME so long to reply. Anyways, I still maintain that the larger weight classes make smaller fighters require MORE skill, but it still lessens the pressure on the larger fighters. I mean, there are exceptions, of course, where a smaller fighter dominates much larger fighters (even in striking, which is a bit less common), however, there are also plenty of relatively 'unknowns,' that are ignored because they are just big tanks. And the weight classes LET them be big tanks, and not worry about being skillful.
You are right, of course, that you could lose some knock out power. Also, a smaller fighter can often be a bit faster. But there are too many variables and far too many examples to judge over all, what the truth is, what the 100% answer is.
Yeah. I saw Fujita, but I've seen fights stopped for a lot less, and a lot more. It's ridiculous sometimes.
Unfortunately, I don't get to see pride as often as I'd like. I only rarely catch it on Fox Sports Network. It doesn't seem to have any regularity, either. Unfortunate.
Anyway, though, I don't see elbows as effective standing. I mean, I've seen them used to DEVASTATING effectiveness, but the difference in range is just too much. You REALLY have to try to surprise the fighter with them. Not when so many fighters are great kickers, not when there are tons of people that may be able to out box you.
On the ground, though, Sometimes you are too close for punches. And I've never really seen an effective kick on-ground. Knees and elbows though? DEVASTATING.
I digress, though.
It is great when you see someone like Silva hold off a fighter with some kicks. That fighter then thinks, because Silva avoids the clinch or takedown, that he is ineffective on the ground. He has, numerous times, proved his effectiveness. Hell, the guy is a black belt in brazilian jiu jitsu. To my knowledge, he has only REALLY lost one match. Belfort. Every other loss to his name was a decision(which I normally don't put my credence into. I've seen a fighter be dominated the entire fight, and then get some good hooks in, or throw a quick submission, and end the fight that would have been decided against them, in the last seconds of the match.
Besides the decisions, he also lost due to a cut. And the one TKO to Belfort.
Ehhh, I still prefer the submission game. It seems, to me, like it requires more finesse. Striking is so much about speed and power. The ground work could be seen as more of finesse and leverage.
Though I don't discount the power advantage, in any case.
Ah! Gotta go, chat with ya later.
Yeah, that is why Bob Sapp got away with being a walking mass of muscle with no real skill. However, he was stopped EVERYTIME he encountered a skilled fighter (Except that BS ref stoppage against Hoost). I am from the camp that believes, if your fighting style relies on your huge mass....use it. It's not illegal to muscle around people and I just look at it as another way of fighting. There are also way too many skilled smaller fighters to make me believe that having a few, large weight classes is a bad thing. I know you're not saying it's a terrible thing, but you do appear opposed to it.
I believe it's weekdays at 12:00. I know it comes on at 12:00 or 12:30 PM, but I can't remember if it's only weekdays or weekends or whatever.
My fault. I forgot to mention range. I didn't mean elbows are awesome at kickboxing range. I meant in the clinch range, elbows are simply godsend. You start with knees until your opponent becomes wary and tries to stop them, then you unload some elbows. Obviously, they're not 100% guaranteed to stop an opponent, but they are invaluable in the clinch.
The only *good* kick I can think of if you're on the ground is the upkick. I've seen someone KOed with it before. That said, I wouldn't put all my faith into it.
Yeah, Silva is getting better on the ground, but still. An opponent with a good groundgame gives him way too much trouble considering his rank in BJJ. Arona (once again I hate that guy) basically just laid on Silva all day and won via decision. Rua came and owned Arona shortly after(it was a tournament) and showed that Silva's ground isn't quite up to snuff. Silva's showing against Yoshida was very nice though. Yes, fighters can get knocked around and end the fight quickly like Nogueira vs Crocop. Crocop was kicking the hell out of Nogueira before Noguiera slapped an armbar on him out of nowhere. I remember everyone was so surprised because Nogueira was getting his ass kicked the whole match then won anyway.
Truthfully, I'll always be striker at heart. It's just so much more intense, and there seems to be a lot more strategy involed. I've seen grapplers just lay on eachother for half an hour because no submission, position change, etc presented itself. I know a good grappler wouldn't do that but it happens all to often. While striking, you can't just.....stand there and rest. You constantly have to watching your opponent, keeping a good defense, picking at him, etc. Even in the clinch where some fighters like to try and tie you up while they rest, you can still use knees, elbows, throws, punches, or even take it to the ground if you want. Plus, the only thing better than throwing a real nice shot and having your opponent back up from you with newfound respect for your power, is actually knocking someone out. I actually quite enjoy the speed and power aspect of striking.
That said, obviously grappling is still essential to your arsenal. It's just that I'd prefer to stand and strike. Hell, sprawling is like...70% of my ground game lol. The ground not somewhere I want to be so I don't see the point in letting someone take me there. Of course, I understand the importance knowing what to do when you do get there.
hehe, more bad news from me.
Saterday i had a class and my sensie left foot marks on my chest cause he kicked me so hard, monday i stay back and fight him again for 20 mins.
Tuesday morning i wake up with a tight chest and short breath, i go to school and leave half way through the day, i find out i have bruised lungs cause of all the kicks iv'e copped over the last while.
That sucks don't it, i hope it aint perminant.
Originally posted by bogen
hehe, more bad news from me.Saterday i had a class and my sensie left foot marks on my chest cause he kicked me so hard, monday i stay back and fight him again for 20 mins.
Tuesday morning i wake up with a tight chest and short breath, i go to school and leave half way through the day, i find out i have bruised lungs cause of all the kicks iv'e copped over the last while.That sucks don't it, i hope it aint perminant.
Originally posted by spidergrl
Yea, one point for the body. One point to the head.