Cloud vs Squall

Originally posted by TacDavey
He beat him ONCE very early on. Seifer gets stronger too, you know.

Speculation.
Tell me how Seifer got stronger. I'm outside Gameplay, of course.

Originally posted by TacDavey
No it doesn't. Forget this, it's going no where. We've gotten to the "nun-uh, yeah-huh" level. Let's just go back to what this part was originally about. You made the claim that Squall was the strongest fighter in the FF8 world, but have no evidence to back that up, since it's never stated in the game, and Squall never fights all the swordsman in the world, so how can you say, with absolute certainty, that there are NO swordsman ANYWHERE in the FF8 world who are better than Squall?

Actually, no again. It's not an opinion at all, it's a fact. An argument is always either valid or invalid. Just as something can't be true for one person and not for another. An argument can't be valid in one case and invalid in another. It's either valid, or not. Yours is invalid. It's just a fact. An intro level logic course would teach you that.

Of course, I don't disagree with that. But you listed that example as reason to assume Squall is strong, but since we see that there is no need to be strong and that it's perfectly possible to be weak and still be in the same position, it says nothing about Squalls strength to say he leads Garden.

I said: ''We can say that he's the best swordsman in the world''.
I never claimed and stated that since I'm not the creator of FFVIII. But facts made me to think that. So you can't say that my arguments are invalid, because these are facts. Yours are, you were disagreeing with facts even with links included.

1. Feared as the 'accursed SeeD or Legendary SeeD', prophecy or not.
2. He commands the most important academy of fighters in the world.
3. He and his friends were assigned to defeat the Sorceresses in the future traveling through Time Compression.
4.Squall and his friends defeated the most powerful being in the Universe.
5. In Dissidia he defeated Ultimecia by himself.
Those are few facts that made me to realize that Squall is the best in his world.

If you disagree, you are totally free to do it though my argument isn't invalid because I'm backing it with facts NOT with my personal opinions.

Originally posted by TacDavey
I'm speaking generally here. I mean Squall now a days as apposed to Squalls past.

Squall's present is disc 4 or Dissidia not disc 1. Squall's past were his time in the orphanage when he was a kid.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Yes in that time and yes with that technology. Are you saying they couldn't animate a bird flying? Of course they can, so they can animate things flying, yes? So they can animate Squall flying, yes? So if they wanted to, they could have him leap high into the air if they wanted to, yes?

I've worked with 3D animation, there is nothing that stops you from having someone leave the ground.

Hmm, actually, Square-Enix didn't had this kind of technology at that time, it's a fact. Now they do, times changes, you know.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Okay, I'm confused. Let me get this straight. Sephiroth was not weakened at all when he fought Cloud in the lifestream. He was just as strong as he should be, and Cloud defeated him.... but Cloud can't beat Sephiroth?

That was a 'wills' fight, you have the Ultimania in your hands now. The truth is that Cloud isn't even near to Sephiroth's level of experience. Cloud's present days are in Dirge Of Cerberus by the way, too bad is all about Vincent.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
I said: ''We can say that he's the best swordsman in the world''.
I never claimed and stated that since I'm not the creator of FFVIII. But facts made me to think that. So you can't say that my arguments are invalid, because these are facts. Yours are, you were disagreeing with facts even with links included.

[b]1. Feared as the 'accursed SeeD or Legendary SeeD', prophecy or not.
2. He commands the most important academy of fighters in the world.
3. He and his friends were assigned to defeat the Sorceresses in the future traveling through Time Compression.
4.Squall and his friends defeated the most powerful being in the Universe.
5. In Dissidia he defeated Ultimecia by himself.
Those are few facts that made me to realize that Squall is the best in his world.

If you disagree, you are totally free to do it though my argument isn't invalid because I'm backing it with facts NOT with my personal opinions.
[/B]

These are all facts that can be used to show Squall is strong, to be sure. But they say nothing about him being the strongest in the world. if you set up an argument in which these are your reasons for claiming the conclusion (Squall is the strongest in the world) it's an invalid argument. The conclusion does not follow from the premesis.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Hmm, actually, Square-Enix didn't had this kind of technology at that time, it's a fact. Now they do, times changes, you know.

Alright, a very simple question for you. If they wanted to, could they animate a bird flying?

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
That was a 'wills' fight, you have the Ultimania in your hands now. The truth is that Cloud isn't even near to Sephiroth's level of experience. Cloud's present days are in Dirge Of Cerberus by the way, too bad is all about Vincent.

Enough with this past and present talk, it's getting old. I was speaking generally.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
4. Squall and his friends defeated the most powerful being in the Universe.

the ultimecia in dissidia never used her final form, so it hardly counts

yea thats all i got to add

Originally posted by TacDavey
These are all facts that can be used to show Squall is strong, to be sure. But they say nothing about him being the strongest in the world. if you set up an argument in which these are your reasons for claiming the conclusion (Squall is the strongest in the world) it's an invalid argument. The conclusion does not follow from the premesis.

Tac, my argument was made by facts, you can't pretend that everything in a fictional game would have factual evidence like in the real world. I gave 5 reasons of why I think Squall could be the best swordsman in his world, I didn't said 'Well Squall is the best in the world because of... Nothing'. If invalid means that it is not stated the game, at least I know I have backed what I've said with logic, if Squall achieved all of that for the sake of the world, it means in some way he's the strongest, nothing illogical there. If you want to speculate some fictional character that could be stronger than him, then that's invalid.

Originally posted by TacDavey
could they animate a bird flying?

If they animated an entire fight, of course they can. But that's not what I mean, I'm saying that all of what you see in the new games is new technology. Why are you having problems to understand this?

Originally posted by MadMel
through love and friendship, not combat skill

You're wrong, they didn't get absorbed by Time Compression Ultimecia due of that, that doesn't mean they didn't had to fight her.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Tac, my argument was made by facts, you can't pretend that everything in a fictional game would have factual evidence like in the real world. I gave 5 reasons of why I think Squall could be the best swordsman in his world, I didn't said 'Well Squall is the best in the world because of... Nothing'. If invalid means that it is not stated the game, at least I know I have backed what I've said with logic, if Squall achieved all of that for the sake of the world, it means in some way he's the strongest, nothing illogical there. If you want to speculate some fictional character that could be stronger than him, then that's invalid.

Griever Squall, you seem to be having trouble understanding what valid and invalid is. Those points you brought up may be facts, but they don't support your conclusion. Here's an example.

P1: The sun is yellow
P2: I have a hand
C: The earth revolves around the sun

Both of those points were facts, but they don't, in any way, support the conclusion. If Squall is the best swordsman in the FF8 universe, than he is better than every other swordsman. That means, if you make the claim that Squall is the best, you must somehow show that he is better than every other swordsman in the FF8 universe. That's the only way you can show him to be the best. But NONE of your points accomplish that, thus, you're argument is invalid.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
If they animated an entire fight, of course they can. But that's not what I mean, I'm saying that all of what you see in the new games is new technology. Why are you having problems to understand this?

I understand that completely. But you are making it sound like that is stopping them from having Squall jump and leap like he does in Dissidia, and that's not true. If they can animate a bird flying, they can animate Squall leaping and flying through the air if they wanted him to.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Griever Squall, you seem to be having trouble understanding what valid and invalid is. Those points you brought up may be facts, but they don't support your conclusion. Here's an example.

P1: The sun is yellow
P2: I have a hand
C: The earth revolves around the sun

Both of those points were facts, but they don't, in any way, support the conclusion. If Squall is the best swordsman in the FF8 universe, than he is better than every other swordsman. That means, if you make the claim that Squall is the best, you must somehow show that he is better than every other swordsman in the FF8 universe. That's the only way you can show him to be the best. But NONE of your points accomplish that, thus, you're argument is invalid.

Tac, I know what a premise is in a debate and etc. no worries.
The fact is... that you can't expect to find 100% evidence in a fictional game that maybe you think is this way and the creators says is not that way or some other people says is other way, it can be purely different interpretations as your argument about Dissidia. I think you take a debate so seriously, we're discussing about a game here. I gave you 5 facts from the game itself, right? Squall saved the world and there are no other character (swordsman) that has been introduced in the story to be above Squall's sword skills nor stated either. Seifer is the only one who could be near but as I said Squall is above his abilities. Squall is the master of the most difficult blade known as the Gunblade and he's the ONLY ONE besides Seifer who could do it in an academy full of the best fighters in the planet, there are no others, there are no other Gunblade specialists besides them, the Gardens are military schools that trains the best warriors in the whole planet. You have to get over this, the story reached its end, Squall remained as the best as far as the story goes, it is logical to think he is the strongest swordsman, Squall is the best swordsman in his world. By speculating that 'MAYBE' 'COULD' 'exist' other swordsman above Squall is invalid because you have zero facts in your side to even back that claim. I don't see anything illogical here. I gave you more than 5 facts from the game itself and different reasonings for the final conclusion, Squall is the strongest swordsman as far as the story goes, he doesn't need to defeat other swordsmans as he already showed to be the strongest warrior.

Originally posted by TacDavey
I understand that completely. But you are making it sound like that is stopping them from having Squall jump and leap like he does in Dissidia, and that's not true. If they can animate a bird flying, they can animate Squall leaping and flying through the air if they wanted him to.

This is the link where the Advent Children producers states that the battles aren't 100% realistic in the movie.

http://www.ffinsider.net/advent-children/interview3.php

First off, you can't use a movie's interview as excuse to support your argument and personal ideas to convince everybody about a game and about what you think is the absolute truth, no matter how much "logical" you think your own argument is. I'm afraid that Dissidia is different, if you haven't noticed, Advent Children's battles are more exaggerated than the Dissidia ones, a lot more. Dissidia's developers and producers didn't stated such thing about being realistic or not in the game, so why bother? Dissidia (If I'm not mistaken) came after Advent Children anyway. The battles may be 'similar' and can be used to give examples to YOU, but that doesn't mean absolutely anything, that means they used the same kind of CG technology, but that also means nothing since they are using it in all the new Square-Enix games. The only scene where we see the characters fight are in the intro itself, the rest is purely Gameplay. In Final Fantasy VIII's intro they used different technology, they captured actors movements and is stated in an interview by the developers. I'm not saying that they couldn't have made something like they do in the new games, I'm saying that they didn't had the technology to do it in that system and in that time and with those graphics, they could do it in the battle animations though, but just look at those pixelated graphics and then at the realistic graphics from the intro, big difference. They didn't had the modern CG technology they have now, that's a fact. The battle in the Final Fantasy VIII intro looks really slow, more than normal, is slow. It looks even less realistic seeing that the characters are from a fantasy world and everything can happen in a battle. Hell, I can move even faster than Squall in that fight. They definitely couldn't have done Squall in that fight scene like they did in Dissidia, just look at the speed of both, I'm talking about speed specifically. The graphics from FFVIII in my opinion are the best ones in Playstation 1. The Final Fantasy characters can jump high (more than us) they can fight in the middle of air, etc. I never said that Squall can go miles into the air as you said in one of your posts. In Dissidia Squall doesn't jump 'so high' to climb buildings if you look closely at his battle with Sephiroth, he doesn't jump like in his battle animations either, not even near, he just jumps 'high' like the rest. In conclusion, you think that the fight in the Dissidia's intro is related to the Advent Children's fights for some reason and you also add that because it's a fighting game all the characters are in an equal level of power, I'd say you're wrong, for me Dissidia was made to show the characters true abilities and how they are in a real battle outside Gameplay, after all they could do it now with more accurate CG animation and pretty graphics. The characters from the intro pretty much shows they aren't in an equal level of power/skill, I don't know from where you brought that up. I must agree with you that inside Gameplay they look all the same though.

Look, I brought both intros, Final Fantasy VIII's intro and Dissidia's.
Compare them both, compare the fights. Notice how the fight between Seifer and Squall isn't in a same level of speed than the Dissidia ones. I'm not talking if the characters jumps or not since Squall doesn't jump in his intro so we don't know his true jump power. But I assume he pretty much can jump high seeing how he falls from very high places without problems. Just look at the Warrior Of Light for example, that doesn't seem exaggerated to me, however, I DO REALLY think Advent Children's battles are exaggerated and are in a higher level of power. Hell, Tifa looks stronger than all the characters from Dissidia. I have studied both animations and it is very clear, don't get me wrong and don't worry, I'm not trying to convince you or anything, I know you will keep thinking the same, this is just my standpoint.

Final Fantasy VIII:
YouTube video

Dissidia:
YouTube video

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Tac, I know what a premise is in a debate and etc. no worries.
The fact is... that you can't expect to find 100% evidence in a fictional game that maybe you think is this way and the creators says is not that way or some other people says is other way, it can be purely different interpretations as your argument about Dissidia. I think you take a debate so seriously, we're discussing about a game here. I gave you 5 facts from the game itself, right? Squall saved the world and there are no other character (swordsman) that has been introduced in the story to be above Squall's sword skills nor stated either. Seifer is the only one who could be near but as I said Squall is above his abilities. Squall is the master of the most difficult blade known as the Gunblade and he's the ONLY ONE besides Seifer who could do it in an academy full of the best fighters in the planet, there are no others, there are no other Gunblade specialists besides them, the Gardens are military schools that trains the best warriors in the whole planet. You have to get over this, the story reached its end, Squall remained as the best as far as the story goes, it is logical to think he is the strongest swordsman, Squall is the best swordsman in his world. By speculating that 'MAYBE' 'COULD' 'exist' other swordsman above Squall is invalid because you have zero facts in your side to even back that claim. I don't see anything illogical here. I gave you more than 5 facts from the game itself and different reasonings for the final conclusion, Squall is the strongest swordsman as far as the story goes, he doesn't need to defeat other swordsmans as he already showed to be the strongest warrior.

How? I don't need facts to support Squall not being the best swordsman, YOU need facts to support Squall being the best. All you have is,

"He's done a lot of good things, and he uses a weapon that is hard to learn."

That's all well and good, and Squall IS a good swordsman, but the claim that there is literally NO ONE else in the WHOLE WORLD that is better is something that DEMANDS evidence, and you haven't given any. You HAVE provided evidence that Squall is a very talented swordsman, but very talented does not equal greatest in the world.

Let's not even bother continuing this, there is NO evidence that Squall is the greatest in the world. You can believe he is all you want, but you can't prove, or defend it, so it can't be used in this debate.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
I'm afraid that Dissidia is different, if you haven't noticed, Advent Children's battles are more exaggerated than the Dissidia ones, a lot more.

No they aren't. In fact, in Dissidia a character can pretty much fly. Dissidia is right there with AC if not MORE extreme.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
I'd say you're wrong, for me Dissidia was made to show the characters true abilities and how they are in a real battle outside Gameplay,

That's just wishful thinking, GrieverSquall. I only focus on logic, at least in a debate. Lets look at the logic here.

AC is not realistic.
Dissidia is like AC, if not more extreme.
Thus, Dissidia is not realistic.

This logic is irrefutable, GrieverSquall, I'm shocked you are still debating it. Just to cover the rest of the bases I'll even go over both the premises.

AC IS NOT REALISTC:

This one is easy. The developers stated as much, and that is irrefutable.

DISSIDIA IS LIKE AC IF NOT MORE EXTREME:

This would be the one you would have to argue against. Lets look at what is possible in Dissidia. The characters can practically fly. They can't really, but they can leap like Spiderman. They can even run up walls. AC couldn't even do that.

Its obvious even when you look at the cut scenes, it looks just like an AC fight scene. There is no escaping from this. My argument is valid. You will have to deal with this and move on. I have left NO ROOM for reply. I have covered every premise, and if the premises are correct, the conclusion is, at least in this case.

Originally posted by TacDavey
How? I don't need facts to support Squall not being the best swordsman, YOU need facts to support Squall being the best. All you have is,

"He's done a lot of good things, and he uses a weapon that is hard to learn."

That's all well and good, and Squall IS a good swordsman, but the claim that there is literally NO ONE else in the WHOLE WORLD that is better is something that DEMANDS evidence, and you haven't given any. You HAVE provided evidence that Squall is a very talented swordsman, but very talented does not equal greatest in the world.

Let's not even bother continuing this, there is NO evidence that Squall is the greatest in the world. You can believe he is all you want, but you can't prove, or defend it, so it can't be used in this debate.

I was talking in general, I never said you needed proof because I'm giving you proof, I said that if you wanted to claim the contrary or refute you have zero facts. No, I gave you enough facts and it seems you have ignored all of my reasonings and simplified my arguments, I don't think he is the best swordsman just because I want to do it, I think so because I have numerous facts supporting a logical reasoning. Of course I can defending it as far as I have supported all my words and I did. In Balamb Garden you can find all the best fighters in the planet, there are no other organizations of fighters besides Galbadia Garden, Trabia (Destroyed) Esthar and the G-Army, Squall is the only one besides Seifer who has mastered the Gunblade in the world. Just get over it. Squall's the best among them. Merits are merits.

Originally posted by TacDavey
No they aren't. In fact, in Dissidia a character can pretty much fly. Dissidia is right there with AC if not MORE extreme.
That's just wishful thinking, GrieverSquall. I only focus on logic, at least in a debate. Lets look at the logic here.

AC is not realistic.
Dissidia is like AC, if not more extreme.
Thus, Dissidia is not realistic.

This logic is irrefutable, GrieverSquall, I'm shocked you are still debating it. Just to cover the rest of the bases I'll even go over both the premises.

AC IS NOT REALISTC:

This one is easy. The developers stated as much, and that is irrefutable.

DISSIDIA IS LIKE AC IF NOT MORE EXTREME:

This would be the one you would have to argue against. Lets look at what is possible in Dissidia. The characters can practically fly. They can't really, but they can leap like Spiderman. They can even run up walls. AC couldn't even do that.

Its obvious even when you look at the cut scenes, it looks just like an AC fight scene. There is no escaping from this. My argument is valid. You will have to deal with this and move on. I have left NO ROOM for reply. I have covered every premise, and if the premises are correct, the conclusion is, at least in this case.

That's one of my opinions, not a wishful thinking, I gave you logic. Show me where they can fly and run on the walls, I don't want Gameplay proof, of course. Take your time to compare Advent Children's fights and then Dissidia's. Advent Children's CG animations are a lot more exaggerated and unrealistic, the developers stated it by themselves, so is fact. Watch Cloud and Sephiroth fight, they are flying there and walking on the walls. Yeah be shocked all you want, but the Dissidia's fights aren't the same as Advent Children ones, not even near. Advent Children is like comparing Matrix's fights. Plus, the Dissidia's developers and producers didn't stated such things about the game at all, so I don't quite understand from where you brought that up.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
No, I gave you enough facts and it seems you have ignored all of my reasonings and simplified my arguments,

You gave me good reasons to think Squall is a GOOD swordsman, but that is NOT the same thing as the BEST swordsman. The absolute ONLY way to show that someone is the best is to show that there is literally NO ONE who is better than them. While your points support the assertion that Squall is a very skilled swordsman, they do nothing to show his dominance over every other swordsman on the planet, thus, they do NOT support him being the BEST.

You are going to have to give this up. Your argument is invalid. Your premises do NOT support your conclusion. I have already shown your points to be insufficient in declaring Squall the greatest swordsman of all time. If you think your points are enough to conclude that Squall is the greatest swordsman in the world then that's fine, but it does not hold up logically, and it cannot be used in this debate.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
That's one of my opinions, not a wishful thinking, I gave you logic. Show me where they can fly and run on the walls, I don't want Gameplay proof, of course.

I would love to. If the opening cinematic isn't enough to prove my point, you can also look at Zidane's scene before he fights Kuja. He runs sideways along the wall in that scene while Kuja shoots at him with energy blasts.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Take your time to compare Advent Children's fights and then Dissidia's. Advent Children's CG animations are a lot more exaggerated and unrealistic,

No they are not. The fact that you are claiming this ridiculous stance only shows you are running out of arguments. The fights in AC are no where near more exaggerated. They are almost completely identical. Dissidia was even promoted as having "AC like fights". Now, if the fights from AC where not realistic, then Dissidia certainly isn't.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Plus, the Dissidia's developers and producers didn't stated such things about the game at all, so I don't quite understand from where you brought that up.

Just because they didn't say it doesn't mean it's not true. I have logical reasoning on my side. Dissidia fights are like AC fights. AC isn't realistic, thus Dissidia isn't either. It's LOGIC.

Originally posted by TacDavey
The absolute ONLY way to show that someone is the best is to show that there is literally NO ONE who is better than them.

That's basically what I have mentioned above. The Garden trains the best fighters in the whole planet, Squall is the only one who have mastered the use of the difficult blade knows as the Gunblade in the whole planet (that's aside of every fact I brought before which also applies to my argument). A very good logical reasoning. I'm sorry, facts, proof and evidences from the game itself are in my favor.

Originally posted by TacDavey
I would love to. If the opening cinematic isn't enough to prove my point, you can also look at Zidane's scene before he fights Kuja. He runs sideways along the wall in that scene while Kuja shoots at him with energy blasts.

Yeah sure, in a Gameplay cutscene, not CG animations.
And even if I consider that Gameplay cutscene as proof (which I do not) Zidane pretty much showed those feats in the ending of Final Fantasy IX.

Originally posted by TacDavey
The fights in AC are no where near more exaggerated. They are almost completely identical. Dissidia was even promoted as having "AC like fights". Now, if the fights from AC where not realistic, then Dissidia certainly isn't.

Just because they didn't say it doesn't mean it's not true. I have logical reasoning on my side. Dissidia fights are like AC fights. AC isn't realistic, thus Dissidia isn't either. It's LOGIC.

Indeed, the fights in Advent Children are a lot more exaggerated. Cloud can fly and run on the walls? No, right? Dissidia was promoted? You are clearly bringing irrelevant information.

Just because they didn't say doesn't means is true either. You have a logical reasoning on your side? Just like the Squall argument I have on my side. Dissidia fights are similar to Advent Children ones.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
That's basically what I have mentioned above. The Garden trains the best fighters in the whole planet, Squall is the only one who have mastered the use of the difficult blade knows as the Gunblade in the whole planet (that's aside of every fact I brought before which also applies to my argument). A very good logical reasoning. I'm sorry, facts, proof and evidences from the game itself are in my favor.

That is hardly compelling evidence. It's at best inductive, meaning not necessarily following, and even then, I don't remember the game saying that Garden was the all time greatest fighters in the world. Elite perhaps, but not the best.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Yeah sure, in a Gameplay cutscene, not CG animations.
And even if I consider that Gameplay cutscene as proof (which I do not) Zidane pretty much showed those feats in the ending of Final Fantasy IX.

There is no difference. Who cares what 3D animation was used for the cutscene? A cut scene is a cut scene. Besides, there were only two cutscenes in the entire game that were full CG cutscenes. By that logic, we can't take anything about the game seriously except the beginning and the end. You'll have to do better than that.

Also, I don't remember Zidane running up walls in FFIX. Along roots, yeah, not straight sideways along a wall.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Indeed, the fights in Advent Children are a lot more exaggerated. Cloud can fly and run on the walls? No, right? Dissidia was promoted? You are clearly bringing irrelevant information.

What do you mean it's irrelevant information? It applies directly to the topic at hand.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Just because they didn't say doesn't means is true either. You have a logical reasoning on your side? Just like the Squall argument I have on my side. Dissidia fights are similar to Advent Children ones.

I know they are. That's what I've been saying this whole time. Glad to see you've spontaneously come around.

Squall and Cloud are pretty evenly matched. Though Squalls Limit Break was better in his own game, Cloud was developed further in the Movie.

Should SuqareEnix ever decide to make a fight starring those two I bet it would end in an stalemate.

Cloud is more popular, Squall however is his equal.

Originally posted by TacDavey
That is hardly compelling evidence. It's at best inductive, meaning not necessarily following, and even then, I don't remember the game saying that Garden was the all time greatest fighters in the world. Elite perhaps, but not the best.

What do you mean? This is evidence. The Gardens trains the best fighters in the world, I have already named the different organizations of fighters in the planet besides the Gardens. I have already said that Squall and Seifer are the only ones who have mastered the Gunblade, thus the only Gunblade specialists in the planet, Squall comes to the top here, this is indeed a logical reasoning.

Originally posted by TacDavey
There is no difference. Who cares what 3D animation was used for the cutscene? A cut scene is a cut scene. Besides, there were only two cutscenes in the entire game that were full CG cutscenes. By that logic, we can't take anything about the game seriously except the beginning and the end. You'll have to do better than that.

Also, I don't remember Zidane running up walls in FFIX. Along roots, yeah, not straight sideways along a wall.

Not really, that's why I've said that was a GAMEPLAY cutscene, during Gameplay all the characters can run on the wall, of course I can't take THAT seriously.
Well, either way there you have:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47BCkNWg5bQ

Watch around 10:00. You'll see Zidane running straight on a wall.
Zidane pretty much can do all of those feats, that's why I'm not surprised by your example.

Originally posted by TacDavey
What do you mean it's irrelevant information? It applies directly to the topic at hand.
I know they are. That's what I've been saying this whole time. Glad to see you've spontaneously come around.

When Dissidia was 'promoted'? You are making that up considering that Square-Enix is applying this technology to all of the new games and you'll probably see more in the future. That's why I find similar the fights between Advent Children and Dissidia, but is obvious that Advent Children is unrealistic, even his producers stated it.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
What do you mean? This is evidence. The Gardens trains the best fighters in the world, I have already named the different organizations of fighters in the planet besides the Gardens. I have already said that Squall and Seifer are the only ones who have mastered the Gunblade, thus the only Gunblade specialists in the planet, Squall comes to the top here, this is indeed a logical reasoning.

It's inductive reasoning, but there is no reason someone outside of Garden can't be a master swordsman. So again, in the end, it can't be proven. The best you can do is suggest that it is likely, and I'm not even sure I'd even give it that.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Not really, that's why I've said that was a GAMEPLAY cutscene, during Gameplay all the characters can run on the wall, of course I can't take THAT seriously.

There is no such thing as a "gameplay cutscene" stop making up new terms. It's a cut scene, just like any other. Are all the scenes from FF8 not able to be taken seriously outside of the full CG ones? Of course not. Like I said, if we use that logic, we can't take ANYTHING from Dissidia seriously since the game is completely made up of those scenes. So, either nothing can be taken seriously from any part of Dissidia, or Dissidia's cutscenes CAN be taken seriously and they are unrealistic. Either way, Dissidia is not an accurate representation of the characters abilities.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Watch around 10:00. You'll see Zidane running straight on a wall.
Zidane pretty much can do all of those feats, that's why I'm not surprised by your example.

Zidane isn't running on the wall, he's sliding down it. He's going DOWN not UP. And before you say anything, yes he runs on it, but it's the same thing as before. He's skidding down the side of the wall, not running completely sideways on it or up it.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
When Dissidia was 'promoted'? You are making that up considering that Square-Enix is applying this technology to all of the new games and you'll probably see more in the future. That's why I find similar the fights between Advent Children and Dissidia, but is obvious that Advent Children is unrealistic, even his producers stated it.

Exactly, and when Dissidia came out, it was said to have "Advent Children like fight scenes", according to one article on it.

AC and Dissidia are the same in terms of fights. You WILL have to deal with this. Quite frankly I'm astounded you are denying this this long. All you need to do is look at the fights and you can clearly see they are the same, there shouldn't even be a debate on this at all.

"It's very flashy, but there is substance in the formula. If you've ever watched Advent Children/Advent Children Complete, then you should be able to get a general idea of how the fights look."

"Dissidia’s fighting system is similar to that of Advent Children."

"The game is telling you that by pressing the triangle button, your character will perform some acrobatic maneuver that's straight out of Final Fantasy VII Advent Children."

"The similarities to Advent Children's acrobatic, gravity-defying combat are unmistakable. A trailer shown separately from the demo had a pre-rendered CG sequence in which FFX's Tidus and FF7's Sephiroth raced up a cliff, exchanging blows, just like in the film."

Everyone sees it but you. Though, I know you see it, you are only denying it because it refutes your argument.

Originally posted by TacDavey
It's inductive reasoning, but there is no reason someone outside of Garden can't be a master swordsman. So again, in the end, it can't be proven. The best you can do is suggest that it is likely, and I'm not even sure I'd even give it that.

True. But then there is no reason for that person to not have aided either his town, squall, or the Galbadian forces. No sort of reason considering Ultimecia knowing all of these people in the past and not knowing about that unknown master swordsman who could've beaten Squall.

Originally posted by TacDavey
There is no such thing as a "gameplay cutscene" stop making up new terms. It's a cut scene, just like any other. Are all the scenes from FF8 not able to be taken seriously outside of the full CG ones? Of course not. Like I said, if we use that logic, we can't take ANYTHING from Dissidia seriously since the game is completely made up of those scenes. So, either nothing can be taken seriously from any part of Dissidia, or Dissidia's cutscenes CAN be taken seriously and they are unrealistic. Either way, Dissidia is not an accurate representation of the characters abilities.

I'm guessing he meant cutscenes like where it just shows whatever random characters are in your party at the time participate in the cutscene, I would guess its only partial truth to the situation. Aside from which ever protagonist was designed to be in the area and whatever enemy was designed to be in that cutscene everything else was more than likely not an actual part.

E.X. Though this didn't happen, lets say Zidane, Garnet, and Eiko all were running along the wall cause you had them in the party. I seriously doubt that 2 of those 3 could do that and if you switch Garnet and Eiko out with someone then they would do the same animation outside CG.

In FF unless its designed to happen a certain by the creators, with certain people, at a certain place, certain time, certain situation, certain clothing, etc... I woudn't take it seriously either.

Originally posted by SpadeKing
True. But then there is no reason for that person to not have aided either his town, squall, or the Galbadian forces. No sort of reason considering Ultimecia knowing all of these people in the past and not knowing about that unknown master swordsman who could've beaten Squall.

Why would Ultimicia have cared? Didn't she receive some prophecy or something about Squall. It's been so long since I've played the game.

Originally posted by SpadeKing
I'm guessing he meant cutscenes like where it just shows whatever random characters are in your party at the time participate in the cutscene, I would guess its only partial truth to the situation. Aside from which ever protagonist was designed to be in the area and whatever enemy was designed to be in that cutscene everything else was more than likely not an actual part.

E.X. Though this didn't happen, lets say Zidane, Garnet, and Eiko all were running along the wall cause you had them in the party. I seriously doubt that 2 of those 3 could do that and if you switch Garnet and Eiko out with someone then they would do the same animation outside CG.

In FF unless its designed to happen a certain by the creators, with certain people, at a certain place, certain time, certain situation, certain clothing, etc... I woudn't take it seriously either.

In Dissidia you don't form teams, so every cut scene is suppose to happen. There is nothing for you to change.

Originally posted by TacDavey
It's inductive reasoning, but there is no reason someone outside of Garden can't be a master swordsman. So again, in the end, it can't be proven. The best you can do is suggest that it is likely, and I'm not even sure I'd even give it that.

Don't go against facts. I take what is written on script, and the script is telling me that there are no other Gunblade master/specialist in the planet, so stop arguing facts.
Squall's the best.

Originally posted by TacDavey
There is no such thing as a "gameplay cutscene" stop making up new terms. It's a cut scene, just like any other. Are all the scenes from FF8 not able to be taken seriously outside of the full CG ones? Of course not. Like I said, if we use that logic, we can't take ANYTHING from Dissidia seriously since the game is completely made up of those scenes. So, either nothing can be taken seriously from any part of Dissidia, or Dissidia's cutscenes CAN be taken seriously and they are unrealistic. Either way, Dissidia is not an accurate representation of the characters abilities.

Exactly, and when Dissidia came out, it was said to have "Advent Children like fight scenes", according to one article on it.

AC and Dissidia are the same in terms of fights. You WILL have to deal with this. Quite frankly I'm astounded you are denying this this long. All you need to do is look at the fights and you can clearly see they are the same, there shouldn't even be a debate on this at all.

"It's very flashy, but there is substance in the formula. If you've ever watched Advent Children/Advent Children Complete, then you should be able to get a general idea of how the fights look."

"Dissidia’s fighting system is similar to that of Advent Children."

"The game is telling you that by pressing the triangle button, your character will perform some acrobatic maneuver that's straight out of Final Fantasy VII Advent Children."

"The similarities to Advent Children's acrobatic, gravity-defying combat are unmistakable. A trailer shown separately from the demo had a pre-rendered CG sequence in which FFX's Tidus and FF7's Sephiroth raced up a cliff, exchanging blows, just like in the film."

Everyone sees it but you. Though, I know you see it, you are only denying it because it refutes your argument.

But we're talking about CG animations here, not random cutscenes. CG animations are more accurate, just watch Dissidia's intro and then Advent Children's fights, great difference to me, Advent Children is a movie not a game and even knowing that the developers stated it wasn't 100% accurate, I guess I don't need to put more videos here showing you how Cloud can easily fly. Despite of the excuses you are trying to make, Zidane pretty much can perform those feats, he is easily running straight on a wall while evading those giant living roots, don't go against facts. I don't know from where you brought those quotes, but that proves nothing. Tidus and Sephiroth fighting? What the hell? Squall is the one fighting Sephiroth. I've said Dissidia and Advent Children are similar, Square-Enix is applying the same technology to all the new games including Final Fantasy XIII and Versus XIII, stop denying facts.

Tac, didn't I teach Squall would destroy Cloud in a fight back in the youtube days? lol

Squall's already shown himself to be superior even with Cloud's little "superhuman" jenova cells? From reading what you have posted thus far, you're just argueing symatics.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Don't go against facts. I take what is written on script, and the script is telling me that there are no other Gunblade master/specialist in the planet, so stop arguing facts.
Squall's the best.

Okay, GrieverSquall, neither of us are going to give up our stances here. You think the fact that he mastered a difficult weapon makes him the greatest swordsman in the entire world, fine. I don't see that as enough evidence. You are saying that anyone who knows how to use a gunblade cannot possibly be defeated by anyone who uses a normal sword, which just isn't true. Squall may be good with a gun blade, but that by itself does not place him above every other swordsman who has ever been born in every part of the entire FF8 world. It just doesn't.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
But we're talking about CG animations here, not random cutscenes. CG animations are more accurate,

No, GrieverSquall, they aren't. Just because the other animations weren't CG means absolutely nothing. They were cutscenes. They are not in a battle, they are scenes in which the gameplay stops and the characters act out a part of the story. The ONLY difference between those and the CG ones is the CG ones look better. That's IT.

I'll say it again. If we can ONLY go on CG, then we can't trust the ENTIRE DISSIDIA GAME, because the ONLY CG ones, are at the beginning and end.

That's like saying FF8 can't be trusted except for the CG scenes scattered in the game. We all know that's not true. There are numerous scenes in FF8 where it is NOT cg and it is still taken as part of the story, I'd say pretty much the whole game fits that description.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
just watch Dissidia's intro and then Advent Children's fights, great difference to me, Advent Children is a movie not a game and even knowing that the developers stated it wasn't 100% accurate, I guess I don't need to put more videos here showing you how Cloud can easily fly.

No, he can just jump like a freak. Otherwise, he wouldn't need his companions giving him a boost when he was fighting Bahamut, would he? Not that I see how that is relevant anyway.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Despite of the excuses you are trying to make, Zidane pretty much can perform those feats, he is easily running straight on a wall while evading those giant living roots, don't go against facts.

No he isn't, GrieverSquall. He is sliding DOWN, the wall, not defying Gravity and running sideways or up it. I could basically do what he was doing in that scene.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
I don't know from where you brought those quotes, but that proves nothing.

It proves everything. Dissidia fights are like AC fights. They are suppose to be, you said it yourself. They are making their fights more like this nowadays because people like it. But if AC isn't suppose to be realistic, then Dissidia isn't either. I've MORE than shown this.

Are you still denying that AC and Dissidia fights are the same?

Originally posted by IndridCold
Tac, didn't I teach Squall would destroy Cloud in a fight back in the youtube days? lol

Youtube? I use a different name on Youtube, how do you know it's me? Though... I think I remember you. I also think I remember winning that debate, thank you very much.

Originally posted by IndridCold
Squall's already shown himself to be superior even with Cloud's little "superhuman" jenova cells? From reading what you have posted thus far, you're just argueing symatics.

Squall has done nothing of the sort. His Limit Break means nothing, as I've more than adequately shown. He didn't fight Ultimicia by himself. The only thing he has going for him at the present moment is he mastered the gunblade. But that doesn't prove anything either.

How has Squall shown himself to be superior?

Originally posted by TacDavey
Okay, GrieverSquall, neither of us are going to give up our stances here. You think the fact that he mastered a difficult weapon makes him the greatest swordsman in the entire world, fine. I don't see that as enough evidence. You are saying that anyone who knows how to use a gunblade cannot possibly be defeated by anyone who uses a normal sword, which just isn't true. Squall may be good with a gun blade, but that by itself does not place him above every other swordsman who has ever been born in every part of the entire FF8 world. It just doesn't.

Exactly, I won't considering all the facts supporting my claim. Not really, I brought more than: 'he mastered a difficult blade' to show he's the strongest swordsman in his world. Oh, and I remember that Squall's the only Gunblade specialist, Seifer isn't. I take Headmaster Cid's words: "Finally, a Gunblade specialist." meaning they didn't had one before. Uh... I never said something like that actually, a swordsman that uses a normal blade can defeat someone who uses a Gunblade, but that one wouldn't be Squall for sure. Either way, I never saw normal blades or swords besides the Gunblades in Final Fantasy VIII. There are a lot of students whose trains to master the Gunblade, but Squall was the first one who did it, merits are merits. Well, he's better than Seifer, and Seifer showed to be one of the best swordsmen. There's nothing to suggest that some imaginary swordsman character can be above Squall's sword skills, no after all the other facts and evidence supporting Squall. The only thing you have for Cloud are his Jenova Cell enhancements, but power alone means nothing, Squall have GFs enhancements and Para-Magic, but his skills put him above Cloud's.

Originally posted by TacDavey
No, GrieverSquall, they aren't. Just because the other animations weren't CG means absolutely nothing. They were cutscenes. They are not in a battle, they are scenes in which the gameplay stops and the characters act out a part of the story. The ONLY difference between those and the CG ones is the CG ones look better. That's IT.

I'll say it again. If we can ONLY go on CG, then we can't trust the ENTIRE DISSIDIA GAME, because the ONLY CG ones, are at the beginning and end.

That's like saying FF8 can't be trusted except for the CG scenes scattered in the game. We all know that's not true. There are numerous scenes in FF8 where it is NOT cg and it is still taken as part of the story, I'd say pretty much the whole game fits that description.

No, he can just jump like a freak. Otherwise, he wouldn't need his companions giving him a boost when he was fighting Bahamut, would he? Not that I see how that is relevant anyway.

No he isn't, GrieverSquall. He is sliding DOWN, the wall, not defying Gravity and running sideways or up it. I could basically do what he was doing in that scene.

It proves everything. Dissidia fights are like AC fights. They are suppose to be, you said it yourself. They are making their fights more like this nowadays because people like it. But if AC isn't suppose to be realistic, then Dissidia isn't either. I've MORE than shown this.

Are you still denying that AC and Dissidia fights are the same?

True, but I take in consideration that a bit of the Gameplay itself is added to that cutscene, unlike CG animations. You already know that the characters can walk on the walls during Gameplay, that's what I meant. Final Fantasy VIII's CG animations are made with different technology and was made with real people capturing their movements, so you can't use it as example. Cloud and Sephiroth are basically flying while fighting on the middle of the air meters from the floor, Cloud is floating while blocking Kadaj's slashes in the forest, what are you trying to say now...? The developers stated that the battles aren't 100% accurate, is fact. However, I don't see anything unrealistic on Squall and the rest in Dissidia AND the Dissidia producers and developers didn't stated such things about the game either, you are stating it under your personal standpoint. What? Because Advent Children was stated to be not 100% realistic that means all the new Square-Enix games aren't as well? Similar is a thing, but they aren't exactly the same. If you say that Cloud can jump like a feak he surely never showed that in his game.

Uh Tac, I don't deny Zidane sliding down on the wall, but you can't deny Zidane's feats, he's pretty much running on the wall as well while evading those giant roots, you can't deny facts. Plus, the Final Fantasy characters can defy Gravity, that's part of the universe itself, it doesn't mean they are flying or that they can actually fly. Cloud crossed the line in these terms though, he was overrated badly in that movie as well as the rest of the characters, I don't remember Yuffie running on the walls either and she is doing it in the film.