Originally posted by GrieverSquall
O RLY????Of course, if I claim something, I am the one with the burden of proof, logically. But if you offer no refutation, then it means nothing if you acknowledge my defense. It's not like I have to convince you either, no one is going to change minds here, you should know that already, lol.
Anyway. As far as I know you don't have to destroy any helicopter, just the soldiers and they were around 100. Zack died, so he can't take an army by himself, that wasn't any army by the way, it was a troop of the Shin-Ra Infantry. I thought the same before, but... I am not sure now, why is Cloud stronger than Zack? Zack couldn't take a troop at the end of Crisis Core, and we are talking about the very beginning of Final Fantasy VIII where some students took an army.
It's a field exam.
Squall had to take Ifrit by himself, just with a little support from Quistis (who has been a SeeD for 3 years) before heading to Dollet, so yeah, there are SeeDs a lot more experienced than the candidates. No, only the ones that passes the exam can become SeeDs, so if they were 9, only 4 of them did. They have their first real missions afterwards. Actually, those SeeDs were stronger at that point, yes, they are there to support (if needed) the candidates. Of course that later in the story Squall grows stronger, but we are talking about the very beginning of the game and in the very beginning of the game any of the G-Soldiers are as strong as ANY SeeD member.Once again, for Seifer eliminating soldiers is just boring, and I assume he amuses himself while doing it seeing as how he call them cowards. A SeeD candidate is far stronger than any G-Soldier, so that SeeD candidate could take many soldiers alone, I can't tell numbers though, but many. A regular but more experienced SeeD (like Quistis or Xu) could take even more soldiers by themselves. Seifer is one of the top fighters in the Garden, so he could take even more by himself, seeing as how he take them without breaking a sweat, Squall is stronger than Seifer and the strongest of all the SeeDs, so yeah, Squall taking an army sounds plausible to me.
I wouldn't say some students took an army. There was hardly army resistance there. You fight, like a few soldiers. Zack's battle at the end of Crisis Core consisted of more soldiers than you fought in that intro mission. It wasn't like a huge group of enemy soldiers lined up and charged at 8-9 SeeD initiates. It was more like they spread out into the city and fought any soldiers they encountered.
I know the soldiers aren't as strong as SeeD. But there is a fine line between being stronger than an enemy, and being able to take out an army of them. Zell takes out two prison guards and Seifer takes down a few groups and you jump to "he can take down an army of them?" That's a huge leap, Greiver.
Originally posted by IndridCold
First off where's your proof for Cloud being stronger than Zack? Isn't that pretty much the question of questions pertaining to those two. I see people argueing about that all the time lol, and arguably speaking, I've seen most side with Zack. Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure there's no mention of that anywhere other than people's opinions. But whatever....that's another arguement in itself.Secondly, I understand what your trying to say about the SeeD initiates becoming full fledged SeeDs after passing the exam, but I'm almost positive your logic is wrong. Hear me out. In SOLDIER there are several classes right? Once someone makes it into SOLDIER it isn't like they are directly promoted to SOLDIER 1st class. To say that the SeeD initiates would automatically be as powerful as any SeeD upon completing their final task is probably a huge over-statement.
Also there are some people who don't realize this, but there is a ranking system in SeeD. It starts off at 1 and ends at A. 1 being the lowest rank and A the highest rank with a total of 31 ranks in all. (1, 2, 3...29, 30, A... Etc Etc.) The top rank any SeeD can get upon completing their final exam is 10, but most only get between a 4 and 6. Regardless, they still have at least 21 ranks to climb. Although it doesn't prove much, it does suggest that there are much stronger SeeDs out there, especially stronger that any initiate completing their final exam could be.
Again sorry for the double posts, work sucks 😛
Oh come on. There is no debate on who is stronger between Zack and Cloud. I would think the fact that Zack got smoked by Sephiroth like a small baby charging at a dragon while Cloud could hold his own and eventually defeat him, though Sephiroth wasn't using his full strength, would be enough. I mean, look at Zack BEFORE he became famous. He didn't do ANYTHING special. He busts Cloud out and then gets shot in the face by a pack of soldiers. I can't even remember if the dude had any dialog that whole game!
I know that the SeeD initiates aren't as strong as top ranked SeeDs, but I don't think the gap in power is so astronomical. For the most part, they are SeeD strength at the end of their training.
Also, I don't think that intro suggests that 3-4 SeeDs could line themselves up against an enemy army and charge them and come out the victor. As I remember it, the initiates where suppose to move through the city fighting enemy soldiers they find on the way. Then Squall's team was suppose to just sit at that spot and wait. It wasn't a full, head on charge against the entire Galbadian army.
Originally posted by TacDavey
I wouldn't say some students took an army. There was hardly army resistance there. You fight, like a few soldiers. Zack's battle at the end of Crisis Core consisted of more soldiers than you fought in that intro mission. It wasn't like a huge group of enemy soldiers lined up and charged at 8-9 SeeD initiates. It was more like they spread out into the city and fought any soldiers they encountered.I know the soldiers aren't as strong as SeeD. But there is a fine line between being stronger than an enemy, and being able to take out an army of them. Zell takes out two prison guards and Seifer takes down a few groups and you jump to "he can take down an army of them?" That's a huge leap, Greiver.
What? The Galbadian ARMY kicked the Dollet's troops, that's stated, if they weren't so many, then they wouldn't have kicked troops. Yes, some students kicked an army, you can even hear the sound of explosions out there, Tac, pay attention, it's a war. The fact that they didn't made so many soldiers as wee see in Crisis Core does not mean they were less than that number. Zack at the end of Crisis Core fought a troop of the Shin-Ra Infantry and died. It's a great feat, but he died.
Nowhere near, go argue with the Scan. A trained Elite Galbadian Soldier not even near a SeeD. If it's no even near, then logically a single SeeD can take groups of G-Soldiers alone. Prison guards? No, G-Soldiers, play the game again, please. And for Seifer is BORING, you do know what that means? He does not even care for the number, he could take several groups of them.
Originally posted by TacDavey
I know that the SeeD initiates aren't as strong as top ranked SeeDs, but I don't think the gap in power is so astronomical. For the most part, they are SeeD strength at the end of their training
As I have said, no, they are not. Not at that point.
Originally posted by TacDavey
Oh come on. There is no debate on who is stronger between Zack and Cloud. I would think the fact that Zack got smoked by Sephiroth like a small baby charging at a dragon while Cloud could hold his own and eventually defeat him, though Sephiroth wasn't using his full strength, would be enough. I mean, look at Zack BEFORE he became famous. He didn't do ANYTHING special. He busts Cloud out and then gets shot in the face by a pack of soldiers. I can't even remember if the dude had any dialog that whole game!
I have to stop you right here. You can't use ANY of Sephiroth's fights to show Cloud's skill, at all.
Sephiroth is just toying with Cloud, stated by the creators, only to make him pay for what he did in the Reactor. Zack fought Sephiroth one on one in the Reactor, Cloud didn't. He just stabbed him on his back with the Buster Sword when Sephiroth wasn't even looking. One will ask why Sephiroth spine didn't break, but whatever, that does not matter.
Cloud is the ONLY ONE Sephiroth evidently refuses to take seriously, even in the Reactor. Who could have guessed a simple Infantryman is capable of insulting the best fighter in the Planet...? Cloud insulted Sephiroth's pride. In Advent Children, their fight could have ended just in a matter of seconds, Sephiroth didn't even cared in using any of his abilities, he refuses to end the battle, he uses just a BIT of Telekinesis and with a mere gesture was enough to bring down a whole building. He hardly used a fraction of his power. Just look at how he makes Cloud suffer once he stabs him, as he did in the Reactor, it's pay back time for Sephiroth. Sephiroth just chooses to use his swordsman skills to make Cloud pay.
Sephiroth never toys with his opponents as he does with Cloud. That's pretty much a fact. I can consider Cloud an equal with Zack, but is indeed not stronger than him.
Originally posted by TacDavey
I wouldn't say some students took an army. There was hardly army resistance there. You fight, like a few soldiers. Zack's battle at the end of Crisis Core consisted of more soldiers than you fought in that intro mission. It wasn't like a huge group of enemy soldiers lined up and charged at 8-9 SeeD initiates. It was more like they spread out into the city and fought any soldiers they encountered.I know the soldiers aren't as strong as SeeD. But there is a fine line between being stronger than an enemy, and being able to take out an army of them. Zell takes out two prison guards and Seifer takes down a few groups and you jump to "he can take down an army of them?" That's a huge leap, Greiver.
Oh come on. There is no debate on who is stronger between Zack and Cloud. I would think the fact that Zack got smoked by Sephiroth like a small baby charging at a dragon while Cloud could hold his own and eventually defeat him, though Sephiroth wasn't using his full strength, would be enough. I mean, look at Zack BEFORE he became famous. He didn't do ANYTHING special. He busts Cloud out and then gets shot in the face by a pack of soldiers. I can't even remember if the dude had any dialog that whole game!
I know that the SeeD initiates aren't as strong as top ranked SeeDs, but I don't think the gap in power is so astronomical. For the most part, they are SeeD strength at the end of their training.
Also, I don't think that intro suggests that 3-4 SeeDs could line themselves up against an enemy army and charge them and come out the victor. As I remember it, the initiates where suppose to move through the city fighting enemy soldiers they find on the way. Then Squall's team was suppose to just sit at that spot and wait. It wasn't a full, head on charge against the entire Galbadian army.
It was definately enough army resistance to go in and destroy another army and take over the town. Zell took out guards in H2H and they're armed with weapons, I don't know how many non-bullet timers are capable of closing the distance for that against automatic fire.
I still consider that debatable, Cloud has never fought someone good that has taken him seriously in a fight.
And that SeeD theory is like me saying that the seconds Zack become a 1st Class he was at equal skills with the rest of the 1st class SOLDIER (Yes that includes Sephiroth who has an astronomical power difference from Zack). In SOLDIER they have to work their way up in ranks, it not like the second someone makes 3rd class they're better than the 3rd class top SOLDIER who is about to make 2nd Class right? After becoming a SeeD they get real missions (initiates only had to complete just one minor mission just to get clearance to take the exams), just like SOLDIERs did and as they climbed in rank their missions get harder, just like SOLDIER does. Otherwise all those SeeD in the future Ultimecia destroyed would've beaten her since they're all so close to the same level.
Originally posted by TacDaveyTo be honest I really don't have an opinion on the matter. Like I said, I think thats just a whole other arguement in itself and would rather not get into it here.
Oh come on. There is no debate on who is stronger between Zack and Cloud. I would think the fact that Zack got smoked by Sephiroth like a small baby charging at a dragon while Cloud could hold his own and eventually defeat him, though Sephiroth wasn't using his full strength, would be enough. I mean, look at Zack BEFORE he became famous. He didn't do ANYTHING special. He busts Cloud out and then gets shot in the face by a pack of soldiers. I can't even remember if the dude had any dialog that whole game!
Originally posted by TacDaveyJust because you "don't think the gap in power is so astronomical" doesn't mean it isnt. Even if the differnce was just marginal there still probably a huge differnce in power given the rank structure. I kind of addressed this point in my last post so I'll put it again.
I know that the SeeD initiates aren't as strong as top ranked SeeDs, but I don't think the gap in power is so astronomical. For the most part, they are SeeD strength at the end of their training.
**Also there are some people who don't realize this, but there is a ranking system in SeeD. It starts off at 1 and ends at A. 1 being the lowest rank and A the highest rank with a total of 31 ranks in all. (1, 2, 3...29, 30, A... Etc Etc.) The top rank any SeeD can get upon completing their final exam is 10, but most only get between a 4 and 6. Regardless, they still have at least 21 ranks to climb. Although it doesn't prove much, it does suggest that there are much stronger SeeDs out there, especially stronger that any initiate completing their final exam could be.**
A SeeD initiate usually can only hope to get a 4 to 6 in rank after they pass their final SeeD Exam (generally speaking). Concidering the rank structure extends all the way to 31 or "A," I'm sure there's a great deal of differnce between somebody that is ranked 6 and someone that is ranked A. I do agree with you the the differnce in power probably isnt too astronomical in differnce between say a 6 and a 10 or a 6 and a 13, but A is probably a whole new ballpark.
Also, and correct me if I'm wrong please, but the SeeD ranks may be closely related to SOLDIER's rank structure. In SOLDIER I believe there are 3 ranks.
SeeD rank 1-10 = Soldier 3rd class
SeeD rank 11-20 = Soldier 2nd class
SeeD ranks 21-A = Soldier 1st class
A little far fetched but does make sense.
Due to time restraints I have to go, I'll try to address your other point tonight
I personally think that becoming a SeeD is harder than becoming a SOLDIER...
The Galbadian occupation of Dollet, which is a small scale war imo, was merely used as the final exam for garden cadets aspiring to become the lowest of SeeD...
This is comparable to what Zack Fair and SOLDIER did in Fort Tamblin against Wutai, the only difference is that Zack was already a notch below SOLDIER's elite class...
Another worthy yet intriguing comparison is that these garden cadets/students, actually managed to successfully liberate Dollet. Yet despite this considerable accomplishment, only four passed. Again, all this just to be the lowest SeeD...
Aside from the final exam which I just described, there's also the prerequisites that one must complete in order to take the final exam, in Squall's case, he needed to obtain a low level GF. You must also excel in academics apparently...
Originally posted by draxx_tOfUYea I hear you, and God knows I agree with you. But the biggest arguement, particularily that TacDavey uses, is that there probably isn't much differnce in power between a member of SeeD and someone who is about to become a member of SeeD. I think it's a bit "out there" and he's really just reaching to find an arguement against this, but personnally speaking I do understand his point. However, I also feel it's a point he's just trying to bend over backwards to debunk, that is seriously in our favor.
I personally think that becoming a SeeD is harder than becoming a SOLDIER...The Galbadian occupation of Dollet, which is a small scale war imo, was merely used as the final exam for garden cadets aspiring to become the lowest of SeeD...
This is comparable to what Zack Fair and SOLDIER did in Fort Tamblin against Wutai, the only difference is that Zack was already a notch below SOLDIER's elite class...
Another worthy yet intriguing comparison is that these garden cadets/students, actually managed to successfully liberate Dollet. Yet despite this considerable accomplishment, only four passed. Again, all this just to be the lowest SeeD...
Aside from the final exam which I just described, there's also the prerequisites that one must complete in order to take the final exam, in Squall's case, he needed to obtain a low level GF. You must also excel in academics apparently...
On a differnt note, but probably related to this topic at hand:
Concidering SeeD took down arguably one of the most powerful Final Fantasy villians of all time, there is more than likely a huge power gap between a fresh SeeD and one that is as seriously seasoned as Squall is.
Originally posted by TacDaveyIt was their job to sit and wait, as they were waiting for the other teams to rendevous at their required locations. It was also nearly the center of the city where Squall and company's position was. Also YES it was a full head on charge at the galbadian army. I don't have access to the CG scene as the battle started taking place, but if I remember correctly the ships they were on looked as if they were taking heavy fire before they even landed on the beach, the Galbadians knew they were coming. Once they landed, the battle music queued the entire time, even outside of combat, and it was constant battling all the way to your destination. I love how you said "the initiates where suppose to move through the city fighting enemy soldiers they find on the way." You almost make it sound like they were literally looking for G-army unit's to fight, when the fact of the matter is they were everywhere. There were even plenty of NPC G-Army avatars running around adding to the effect. If you play the game, there is nothing but conflict the entire time trying to make it to your destination suggesting that resistence was in all likelyhood pretty astronomical.
Also, I don't think that intro suggests that 3-4 SeeDs could line themselves up against an enemy army and charge them and come out the victor. As I remember it, the initiates where suppose to move through the city fighting enemy soldiers they find on the way. Then Squall's team was suppose to just sit at that spot and wait. It wasn't a full, head on charge against the entire Galbadian army.
Anyways laterz and have with your reply lol
Originally posted by IndridCold
Yea I hear you, and God knows I agree with you. But the biggest arguement, particularily that TacDavey uses, is that there probably isn't much differnce in power between a member of SeeD and someone who is about to become a member of SeeD. I think it's a bit "out there" and he's really just reaching to find an arguement against this, but personnally speaking I do understand his point. However, I also feel it's a point he's just trying to bend over backwards to debunk, that is seriously in our favor.
I gave an example already to address that point, it is useless to keep repeating the same. Quistis was a SeeD for 3 years, logically she was more experienced in all sense than the SeeD candidates, it doesn't matter if they had to complete a mission in order to become a SeeD, most of them didn't and the ones that did have to keep growing stronger. We are forgetting something really important here, we are talking about the VERY BEGINNING of the game.
Originally posted by IndridCold
Also, and correct me if I'm wrong please, but the SeeD ranks may be closely related to SOLDIER's rank structure. In SOLDIER I believe there are 3 ranks.SeeD rank 1-10 = Soldier 3rd class
SeeD rank 11-20 = Soldier 2nd class
SeeD ranks 21-A = Soldier 1st class
Hmm... Good, I like it, however, Squall is even above Rank A, he is a Commander. The recently Rank created to award him. He's the absolute leader of the SeeDs. Might I remind you he reached this Rank in the second Disc.
Originally posted by GrieverSquallOh snap are me and Griever about to argue about something?? lol don't have the time to do it here but check back later tonight
Hmm... Good, I like it, however, Squall is even above Rank A, he is a Commander. The recently Rank created to award him. He's the absolute leader of the SeeDs. Might I remind you he reached this Rank in the second Disc.
Originally posted by GrieverSquallAre you trying to argue with me here or just backing up my point to draxx? I was really just tying to address Draxx here lol
I gave an example already to address that point, it is useless to keep repeating the same. Quistis was a SeeD for 3 years, logically she was more experienced in all sense than the SeeD candidates, it doesn't matter if they had to complete a mission in order to become a SeeD, most of them didn't and the ones that did have to keep growing stronger. We are forgetting something really important here, we are talking about the VERY BEGINNING of the game.
Originally posted by IndridCold
Oh snap are me and Griever about to argue about something?? lol don't have the time to do it here but check back later tonightAre you trying to argue with me here or just backing up my point to draxx? I was really just tying to address Draxx here lol
Ha ha ha, of course not, my friend, I am reinforcing your points! 😉
Ugh, this is turning right back into the same thing I tried to get away from so long ago, and honestly do NOT feel like getting into again. No one is changing their minds, we figured that out before, right?
So I'll say my peace and get out before it turns back into an all out war again.
Like I said, you could argue that Squall is able to take out armies by himself, but I find the argument rests a little too much on assumptions. You assume a massive gap in SeeD strength, you also assume that 3-4 SeeDs can take out armies by themselves by using the fact that they were sent to help clean up any problems the other 8-9 initiates might have. Frankly, I don't see Squall fighting all that many soldiers in that mission. It wasn't the same as lining up an army in a field, pointing them out to Squall and saying "go take them all out." Finally, you assume that Squall is so much more powerful that he can do alone what it takes a team of powerful SeeDs to do.
Like I said, you can give reasons to support each of those points, but the foundation is still flimsy, where as we KNOW Zack can take out close to 100 soldiers with helicopters and all. If you trust Crisis Core, that is.
So it can be shown that the conclusion that Squall can take out armies by himself is a reasonable conclusion to hold to, there is practically no denying that Zack can take out a large group of soldiers alone.
Anyway, that's all I have to say. I'm going to leave it at that and get out of this thread, and I suggest you do the same. This is one of the most debated character match ups, I think, and I don't see either side giving any ground anytime soon.
Originally posted by TacDavey
Ugh, this is turning right back into the same thing I tried to get away from so long ago, and honestly do NOT feel like getting into again. No one is changing their minds, we figured that out before, right?So I'll say my peace and get out before it turns back into an all out war again.
Like I said, you could argue that Squall is able to take out armies by himself, but I find the argument rests a little too much on assumptions. You assume a massive gap in SeeD strength, you also assume that 3-4 SeeDs can take out armies by themselves by using the fact that they were sent to help clean up any problems the other 8-9 initiates might have. Frankly, I don't see Squall fighting all that many soldiers in that mission. It wasn't the same as lining up an army in a field, pointing them out to Squall and saying "go take them all out." Finally, you assume that Squall is so much more powerful that he can do alone what it takes a team of powerful SeeDs to do.
Like I said, you can give reasons to support each of those points, but the foundation is still flimsy, where as we KNOW Zack can take out close to 100 soldiers with helicopters and all. If you trust Crisis Core, that is.
So it can be shown that the conclusion that Squall can take out armies by himself is a reasonable conclusion to hold to, there is practically no denying that Zack can take out a large group of soldiers alone.
Anyway, that's all I have to say. I'm going to leave it at that and get out of this thread, and I suggest you do the same. This is one of the most debated character match ups, I think, and I don't see either side giving any ground anytime soon.
I agree, no one is going to change their minds... After all.
But yes, to reach the conclusion that Squall can take an army (I didn't said armies) of G-Soldiers by himself it must be first drawn from assumptions, but using a logical reasoning to support it and with the help of evidences the game itself suggests. That's what I am doing, at least me. I wouldn't like to be on your shoes though, Tac, but it happens that you're the only one who disagrees.
Hell yeah, it is a great leap to claim one character can beat an army by himself, but is pretty much possible, to at least, support the argument with logic. I wanna point out that we're talking about the beginning of the story, the argument basically works for Squall in the course of the entire game when he obviously gets stronger afterwards. I never claimed Squall can take out an army by himself in the beginning of the game, literally I am claiming that in the end of it he would be able to, since in the beginning it is pretty much stated that G-Soldiers are NOWHERE NEAR as strong as ANY SeeD member.
You don't have doubts Zack can take a large number of soldiers by himself because you actually see him doing it, is different. Sometimes you do not need to see something to know something.
Okay, I will leave this thread that by the way it wasn't me the one who started it, it was that guy Zack Fair FFVII and Pyron Knight.
Originally posted by TacDaveyWhatever man you're just putting your own spin on things. When Cid briefs the mission its completly implied that the 3 to 4 SeeD's could have done it alone simple as that. They wernt sent along to merely help, or play clean up crew.
You assume a massive gap in SeeD strength, you also assume that 3-4 SeeDs can take out armies by themselves by using the fact that they were sent to help clean up any problems the other 8-9 initiates might have.
And to tell you the truth, I've really just concidered myself the ******* X factor for Squall during this whole arguement. It's mainly been between you and Griever for the most part. I think I needed to be that X factor just due to the fact that Cloud has so much more exposure than Squall does. It's really just an unfair advantage concidering most of the Evidence presented on Cloud's behalf has come from extentions of Final Fantasy 7.
Also when you look at Dissidia you can obviously see where Square Enix is willing to take the franchise. YES I know Dissidia is not canon, but it shows where Square's head is at. I can gaurentee you, if Square did make this fight, they would be on equal ground, and it would be completly epic, ending in some form of draw more than likely.
Thats all, later
Originally posted by GrieverSquallGotcha but this is still a totally arguable point lol
Hmm... Good, I like it, however, Squall is even above Rank A, he is a Commander. The recently Rank created to award him. He's the absolute leader of the SeeDs. Might I remind you he reached this Rank in the second Disc.