Originally posted by NemeBro
Squall can hold black holes, windmills, cottages, three stars, and dark matter in his pants, a hundred of each to be exact.He stomps.
😂
Originally posted by TacDavey
Are you sure? They sound about the same to me.
At least the other guy threw in something logical in between.
Squall imo is usually almost always heavily underrated in the Cloud vs Squall debate. The fact remains is that Cloud has the so called "advantage" here simply because he has had 209348203948 sequels to display his abilities, where as Squall has not had that luxury.
If we just went by VII the game, it would have been impossible to have claimed that Cloud is fast enough to deflect bullets or that he can cut giant concrete blocks with his sword, all of that would have been considered ridiculous due to the fact that he showed none of that in the storyline game of VII itself.
However, I would like to point out to other parts, like Dissidia for example. Yes, it isn't "canon" from the storyline standpoint, however feat wise (from the trailers) I believe all of that is pretty much canon. So Squall being able to run up vertically while fighting up against Sephiroth in such a way I believe would have been within the absolute capabilities of the VIII Squall.
This demonstrates that Squall would have been Cloud's equal in terms of physical and speed capabilities. Yes we "don't" have any canon feats that "proves" this from VIII the game, however every FF spinoff has shown Squall being Cloud's equal in terms of capabilities, so I don't see how that's just a coincidence regardless of the storyline not being canon.
Honestly, had it not of been for the 209348023948 VII spinoffs, everyone would give the notion that this would have been a very equal fight (which is what it really is), however due to Square showcasing more of Cloud's abilities most just simply fly to his favor.
If you put the two and two together, this match up is very even.
comon
dudes putting aside all statistics and looking at both as warriors i think that the battle would go on and on until eventually squall would win.
my point is that realistically with super strength and agility which both party's obviously posses a gun blade would be hard to top. cloud does have impressive agility with his buster sword but imagine that same strength and speed translated onto a smaller and generally more unique weapon add onto that the fact that squall has technically trained more (being raised at a military institute) and had defeated a more powerful enemy ( I love sephy but ultimicia has unlimited power givin to her by a deity and can bend space time.) also thinking that they have approximately equal stamina and ability to take a beating squall would have more energy not having to lift a 200 pound sword. this would affect everything only slightly but due to how even these two are i think everything needs to be taken into account. also cloud ,though a gifted swordsman, is constrained by his weapon to use more traditional styles while the gun blade with its unique size and grip would need to incorporate more interesting and unpredictable moves (thus why it is said to be one of the hardest weapons to master in the ff8 universe)
so at the end of the day i think squall would narrowly win
or they would just get over their differences form a partnership and be the most badass people ever
Originally posted by Angeal_g-enisis
dudes putting aside all statistics and looking at both as warriors i think that the battle would go on and on until eventually squall would win.
my point is that realistically with super strength and agility which both party's obviously posses a gun blade would be hard to top. cloud does have impressive agility with his buster sword but imagine that same strength and speed translated onto a smaller and generally more unique weapon add onto that the fact that squall has technically trained more (being raised at a military institute) and had defeated a more powerful enemy ( I love sephy but ultimicia has unlimited power givin to her by a deity and can bend space time.) also thinking that they have approximately equal stamina and ability to take a beating squall would have more energy not having to lift a 200 pound sword. this would affect everything only slightly but due to how even these two are i think everything needs to be taken into account. also cloud ,though a gifted swordsman, is constrained by his weapon to use more traditional styles while the gun blade with its unique size and grip would need to incorporate more interesting and unpredictable moves (thus why it is said to be one of the hardest weapons to master in the ff8 universe)so at the end of the day i think squall would narrowly win
or they would just get over their differences form a partnership and be the most badass people ever
Why do you assume Cloud and Squall are equal? I've seen many people claim this, but where is the evidence?
I haven't played FF8 in quite some time, so I don't really know, but is there any part in the game that shows Squall having super strength?
Cloud is pretty quick with the Buster Sword. His victory animation has him twirling it over his head like it was made of paper, I think he was doing it one handed too, but I don't really remember. The point is, he wields it like it was a small sword.
Besides, if you want to talk tactics, Clouds attacks would be far more devastating. Realistically, Squall shouldn't even be able to block an attack from the Buster Sword with a sword the size of the Gunblade. But at the same time, it would be a lot easier to defend with the Buster Sword, since the thing is the size of a shield anyway.
Originally posted by TacDavey
Cloud is pretty quick with the Buster Sword. His victory animation has him twirling it over his head like it was made of paper, I think he was doing it one handed too, but I don't really remember. The point is, he wields it like it was a small sword.
You're using battle animations as evidence. That victory pose is part of a battle animation itself, if it isn't outside a battle, then you can't use it. Unless you want me to claim stuff from Squall's battle animations as well, etc.
Originally posted by TacDavey
Realistically, Squall shouldn't even be able to block an attack from the Buster Sword with a sword the size of the Gunblade.
Realistically, Cloud wouldn't be able to even hold a sword of that size, thus he shouldn't be able to block Squall's slashes. Of course, if we go by what it looks 'real'.
And....
Originally posted by SpadeKing
Considering Cloud himself thought he was pretty pathetic and was still able to pick up the buster sword as a shinra grunt, it isn't a impressive feat of any sorts.
This. 😐
It's as I've stated, if we went by comparison from just their storyline characters from both their respective games, easily, you can't say one is more powerful then the other.
However again, as with so many people who claim "Well Cloud will ocv Squall" because of "insert feat" is the mere fact that Cloud has had numerous spinoffs to show his abilities, where as Squall has had none. Which causes a great deal of problems, because we can truly gauge Cloud's abilities, but we can't for Squall, so the idea that Cloud auto wins over Squall is ridiculous because we don't have any spinoffs post-VIII storyline to show case for Squall as well.
The only other option was what I stated earlier and that is if you at least took the time to look at the feats that Squall and Cloud have done in their other FF spinoffs (KH series, Dissidia) you would notice that the abilities of Cloud in there are exactly similar to his real counterpart. However more importantly Squalls feats in there are basically equal to Clouds feats, which resemble exactly to that of his VII counterpart, so the understanding here is that "if" the two fought that their abilities would be equal.
Again, in a game like Dissidia, Square holds true to the capabilities of it's storyline characters, like Terra flying, shooting magical projectiles, Tidus being super quick and nimble (not talking about game mechanics, but the storyline shown feats of Tidus) etc, etc would all equate to what their "real" counterparts would be capable of doing.
So in the end, it's almost impossible to truly gauge who is more powerful at this point, because their feats are nearly identical that we really can't say one superior to the other.
Originally posted by SpadeKing
Considering Cloud himself thought he was pretty pathetic and was still able to pick up the buster sword as a shinra grunt, it isn't a impressive feat of any sorts.
It shows that Cloud isn't hampered by the swords size, like Angel was saying. Either that's a really light sword, and I doubt it is, or Cloud is really strong. Either way, he can weild it just fine.
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
You're using battle animations as evidence. That victory pose is part of a battle animation itself, if it isn't outside a battle, then you can't use it. Unless you want me to claim stuff from Squall's battle animations as well, etc.Realistically, Cloud wouldn't be able to even hold a sword of that size, thus he shouldn't be able to block Squall's slashes. Of course, if we go by what it looks 'real'.
And....
This. 😐
Those two are different. We can tell some things from battles. Like the characters fighting style. It's only when you get to things like limit breaks, where things start to get exaggerated, that you have to be careful. Especially when they are performing stunts that are contrary to what we see outside of battle. Clouds ability to wield his sword is not contradictory or exaggerated.
Originally posted by JustFrame
It's as I've stated, if we went by comparison from just their storyline characters from both their respective games, easily, you can't say one is more powerful then the other.However again, as with so many people who claim "Well Cloud will ocv Squall" because of "insert feat" is the mere [b]fact that Cloud has had numerous spinoffs to show his abilities, where as Squall has had none.
Which causes a great deal of problems, because we can truly gauge Cloud's abilities, but we can't for Squall, so the idea that Cloud auto wins over Squall is ridiculous because we don't have any spinoffs post-VIII storyline to show case for Squall as well.The only other option was what I stated earlier and that is if you at least took the time to look at the feats that Squall and Cloud have done in their other FF spinoffs (KH series, Dissidia) you would notice that the abilities of Cloud in there are exactly similar to his real counterpart. However more importantly Squalls feats in there are basically equal to Clouds feats, which resemble exactly to that of his VII counterpart, so the understanding here is that "if" the two fought that their abilities would be equal.
Again, in a game like Dissidia, Square holds true to the capabilities of it's storyline characters, like Terra flying, shooting magical projectiles, Tidus being super quick and nimble (not talking about game mechanics, but the storyline shown feats of Tidus) etc, etc would all equate to what their "real" counterparts would be capable of doing.
So in the end, it's almost impossible to truly gauge who is more powerful at this point, because their feats are nearly identical that we really can't say one superior to the other. [/B]
Actually, if you notice, I don't think anyone has made the claim that Cloud beats Squall because of spin off things at all. At least I haven't. I don't even hold to AC or Dissidia being accurate representations of the characters original abilities.
Originally posted by TacDavey
It shows that Cloud isn't hampered by the swords size, like Angel was saying. Either that's a really light sword, and I doubt it is, or Cloud is really strong. Either way, he can weild it just fine.
Or it is because the Buster Sword isn't a big deal just for any grunt in Shin-Ra (and I'm talking about size, specifically) since Cloud could hold it, and he underperformed in everything.
Originally posted by TacDavey
Those two are different. We can tell some things from battles. Like the characters fighting style. It's only when you get to things like limit breaks, where things start to get exaggerated, that you have to be careful. Especially when they are performing stunts that are contrary to what we see outside of battle. Clouds ability to wield his sword is not contradictory or exaggerated.
Saying that Cloud swings his word at (let's say) light-speed in his victory pose, is the same as saying Cloud's speed in every attack inside a battle. And if we go by their fighting style, then you're talking about a battle, thus the same I can say about Squall. As you know, Limit Breaks shows the character's fighting style. A swing from Cloud's sword doesn't show his fighting style, I can swing a sword with both hands if a want, but that does not show my style in a fight, at all. Cloud's Omnislash and Squall's Renzokuken are a good example of their fighting style and how they move when attacking an enemy.
Originally posted by TacDavey
It shows that Cloud isn't hampered by the swords size, like Angel was saying. Either that's a really light sword, and I doubt it is, or Cloud is really strong. Either way, he can weild it just fine.
That's either a really light sword but large or just not really heavy and really if anything that is the only combat feat I can remember for Cloud in FF7 that he did on his own aside from driving a motorcycle and swinging the sword but that doesn't help him here 😐
Originally posted by TacDavey
Actually, if you notice, I don't think anyone has made the claim that Cloud beats Squall because of spin off things at all. At least I haven't. I don't even hold to AC or Dissidia being accurate representations of the characters original abilities.
Originally posted by Zack Fair
In my opinion they are equals. Only reason Cloud is superior is because he has a shitload of feats that come from 5 times the exposure Squall has.I can't wait to see what Squall will be up to in this game.
Originally posted by Terryc250
Can you really picture Squall with his gunblade flying around chopping up huge columns of buildings like Cloud was?
Originally posted by mikeydude
I think it would be a draw. Because cloud is faster and stronger. Now cloud does have a bad stanima. He cant go a long time of fighting. EX- AC.
Originally posted by FWahMaN*note: He definitely didn't get that idea from just FF7*
I'd think a huge ass buster sword will be harder to use, and Cloud uses that at fairly the same speed as Squall with his gunblade. Squall is also outmatched in overall movement speed/jump capacity and strength. Hell reaction time as well. Yes, using canon FF visuals and not gameplay, which is one of the most broken since it's FF.
Originally posted by SpadeKing*note: This idiot voted earlier cause he saw FF7: AC 😱 *
The new argument seems interesting but there are too many paragraphs for me to even bother reading.I'm still sticking iwth squall although I think my initial vote was Cloud
Originally posted by FFVII Zack Fair
Well in crisis core, attacks like "Jump" show that its not just cgi where cloud or Zack can do these amazing things.Cloud is almost like a copy of Zack, he may not be as good, but his abilities are similar to Zacks.
Originally posted by FFVII Zack Fair
Wow that just shows that you never played crisis coreFirst off, Zack weakend due to the Mako tests. He fought countless troops on his way to midgar with cloud to look after.
After he got to banora, he FOUGHT GENESIS A FIRST CLASS SOLDIER AND ALL OF HIS MINIONS. Genesis was the 3rd strongest SOLDIER member before Zack came into the picture. After he fought genesis he took Cloud with him all the way to the outskirts of midgar. THEN he was gunned down by Shinra. It was almost their entire army vs zack.
He killed most of them but was stopped by the last few left.
Squall has never done that, he never will do that and its all because he CANT do that.
hold on a second
Originally posted by FFVII Zack Fair
Squall has never done that, he never will do that and its all because there isn't a FFVIII spin-off.
fixed 😄
To be truthful, I think Tac really is the only person to argue for Cloud, though looking back he didn't know as much on the verse. Most of the arguments side with Squall or for a tie, so I'm guessing most of the votes were just people who saw "CLOUD FRUM FF7:AC??? ALL MAH VOTEZ BELUNG 2 DIS!"
The Buster Sword isn't a big deal? What does that mean? Look at the size of it. Lifting it and swinging it as if it were a normal sword shows you are pretty strong. Not that any of that is the point anyway, the point I was responding to was the claim that Cloud is slow because he has to lug around that big old sword, which is just untrue. He's as fast as anyone else.
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Saying that Cloud swings his word at (let's say) light-speed in his victory pose, is the same as saying Cloud's speed in every attack inside a battle. And if we go by their fighting style, then you're talking about a battle, thus the same I can say about Squall. As you know, Limit Breaks shows the character's fighting style. A swing from Cloud's sword doesn't show his fighting style, I can swing a sword with both hands if a want, but that does not show my style in a fight, at all. Cloud's Omnislash and Squall's Renzokuken are a good example of their fighting style and how they move when attacking an enemy.
What's your point? Maybe we can tell how Squall wields his sword from Lionheart. That's irrelevant. We were talking about what can be accepted from a battle. Clouds victory pose can because of the reasons I gave in my last post. It isn't the same as a Limit Break, for the reasons I gave in my last post.
Originally posted by SpadeKing
That's either a really light sword but large or just not really heavy
🤨
Originally posted by TacDavey
The Buster Sword isn't a big deal? What does that mean? Look at the size of it. Lifting it and swinging it as if it were a normal sword shows you are pretty strong. Not that any of that is the point anyway, the point I was responding to was the claim that Cloud is slow because he has to lug around that big old sword, which is just untrue. He's as fast as anyone else.
Just because someone wields a big sword it means is stronger than the ones that does not wields big swords? You make it sound like that. Of course Cloud wields his sword normally, I never said he didn't, and I never said he is slow with it, but you're ridiculously claiming he wields it like paper.
Originally posted by TacDavey
What's your point? Maybe we can tell how Squall wields his sword from Lionheart. That's irrelevant. We were talking about what can be accepted from a battle. Clouds victory pose can because of the reasons I gave in my last post. It isn't the same as a Limit Break, for the reasons I gave in my last post.
You can't decide what to accept or not from a battle animation. I can decide on my own if I want, and you didn't give any reasons, just as some animations can be perfectly acceptable and other doesn't, you don't accept any of them because for you they are all exaggerated. Now for the sake of your argument, you say Cloud's battle animations are acceptable. Lame.
And...
Originally posted by SpadeKing
Cloud as Shinra grunt handled it just fine, Cloud as a Shinra grunt was worthless.
This. 😐
Originally posted by SpadeKing
Cloud as Shinra grunt handled it just fine, Cloud as a Shinra grunt was worthless.
Maybe Cloud as a Shinra Grunt wasn't as worthless as we all thought. He is the one who pulled himself up Sephiroths sword and tossed the guy over a cliff. Worthless dudes don't pull stuff like that. Maybe it was the fact that his hometown was just destroyed, but Cloud seemed a little less worthless during that time.
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Just because someone wields a big sword it means is stronger than the ones that does not wields big swords? You make it sound like that. Of course Cloud wields his sword normally, I never said he didn't, and I never said he is slow with it, but you're ridiculously claiming he wields it like paper.
When did I say Cloud was stronger than Squall? I believe I said there is no evidence to suggest that Squall is as strong as Cloud. I asked if there was any point in the game where Squall shows himself to have super strength.
I know you never said Cloud was slow with his sword, but that Angel guy did and HE was who I was refuting.
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
You can't decide what to accept or not from a battle animation. I can decide on my own if I want, and you didn't give any reasons, just as some animations can be perfectly acceptable and other doesn't, you don't accept any of them because for you they are all exaggerated. Now for the sake of your argument, you say Cloud's battle animations are acceptable. Lame.
No, not all of Clouds animations. I said we can take SOME things from battles. Squalls victory pose is just as acceptable as Clouds. And I DID give reasons. I spelled it out a few posts ago. Here, I'll get it again for you.
"It's only when you get to things like limit breaks, where things start to get exaggerated, that you have to be careful. Especially when they are performing stunts that are contrary to what we see outside of battle. Clouds ability to wield his sword is not contradictory or exaggerated."
Originally posted by TacDavey
When did I say Cloud was stronger than Squall? I believe I said there is no evidence to suggest that Squall is as strong as Cloud. I asked if there was any point in the game where Squall shows himself to have super strength.I know you never said Cloud was slow with his sword, but that Angel guy did and HE was who I was refuting.
That's like saying 'Cloud is stronger than Squall because there's no evidence of the contrary', or, 'Cloud is stronger than Squall because I say so'. Dunno, it sounds like that. It's like me saying 'there's no evidence of Cloud being as strong as Squall', what you get by that? Sorry if I misunderstand.
I do ask the same actually, where in the game we see Cloud performing super strength feats?
Originally posted by TacDavey
No, not all of Clouds animations. I said we can take SOME things from battles. Squalls victory pose is just as acceptable as Clouds. And I DID give reasons. I spelled it out a few posts ago. Here, I'll get it again for you."It's only when you get to things like limit breaks, where things start to get exaggerated, that you have to be careful. Especially when they are performing stunts that are contrary to what we see outside of battle. Clouds ability to wield his sword is not contradictory or exaggerated."
Now you say we can take some things from battles, because it works for your stance. Like I said, It's the same as saying Cloud's speed or strength when we see him fighting in a battle, Tac, it's part of a battle animation itself. You say something about their fighing style, like I said, Cloud swinging a sword does not show his fighting style at all, they shows their fighting style when they are fighting. Squall's victory pose does no show anything about his style either, if you ask me.
And what we can see outside a battle? Nothing, because, it's pretty obvious, they aren't fighing. What does Cloud shows outside a battle? Nothing, because they only fight when we are controlling them, duh.
Originally posted by SpadeKing
Cloud is always less worthless in a desperation attack, those seem to be the only thing he has going for him. Besides wasn't like he chucked off Sephiroth at 100%, the guy was carrying his "mom's" head and just had a buster sword struck through his backside.
That's completely irrelevant. The point was he took a sword through his chest, pulled himself up along the blade, and threw a full grown man off a cliff, all while having a sword sticking through his middle.
That doesn't sound worthless to me, for whatever reason, while this was going on Cloud wasn't worthless. Which means your point that the Buster Sword isn't anything special because Cloud lifted it as a grunt is refuted because when he was lifting it, he wasn't being worthless.
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
That's like saying 'Cloud is stronger than Squall because there's no evidence of the contrary', or, 'Cloud is stronger than Squall because I say so'. Dunno, it sounds like that. It's like me saying 'there's no evidence of Cloud being as strong as Squall', what you get by that? Sorry if I misunderstand.I do ask the same actually, where in the game we see Cloud performing super strength feats?
No, GreiverSquall, it isn't like that at all. I'm not saying Cloud is stronger than Squall because Squall doesn't show any super strength feats, I'm attacking the stance that Squall is as strong as Cloud. Why say that? I'm simply asking for evidence just like you would if I said "Cloud is as good as Squall." I see NO reason to assume that Squall has super strength unless evidence for that can be supplied, but no one has done it yet, so I wonder.
The simple act of Cloud wielding that sword like he does is evidence of above average strength.
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Now you say we can take some things from battles, because it works for your stance. Like I said, It's the same as saying Cloud's speed or strength when we see him fighting in a battle, Tac, it's part of a battle animation itself. You say something about their fighing style, like I said, Cloud swinging a sword does not show his fighting style at all, they shows their fighting style when they are fighting. Squall's victory pose does no show anything about his style either, if you ask me.And what we can see outside a battle? Nothing, because, it's pretty obvious, they aren't fighing. What does Cloud shows outside a battle? Nothing, because they only fight when we are controlling them, duh.
I fully agree there are things we can take from the battles. We know Tifa fights with her fists, rather than a gun even though she fights with them in a battle mode.
There ARE things we can know from them, but not everything we see in them is acceptable. Like a lot of the Limit Breaks. But I pointed out the difference between what is acceptable and what isn't. Cloud's victory pose is fully acceptable. Squall's Blasting Zone is not. Squall's Blasting Zone is exaggerated, and causes contradictions/problems with the reality of the game outside the Battle. Cloud's victory animation does neither of those two things. Unless you can point out to me what part of his animation is exaggerated or causes problems outside of the battle.
Originally posted by TacDavey
That's completely irrelevant. The point was he took a sword through his chest, pulled himself up along the blade, and threw a full grown man off a cliff, all while having a sword sticking through his middle.That doesn't sound worthless to me, for whatever reason, while this was going on Cloud wasn't worthless. Which means your point that the Buster Sword isn't anything special because Cloud lifted it as a grunt is refuted because when he was lifting it, he wasn't being worthless.
Sephiroth being impaled with a blade the size of the Buster Sword in his back is aberrant, Cloud's cowardly attack should've cut Sephiroth in half, imagine all of that passing through a spine, but whatever, 'FF logic' says otherwise. The point is, once Sephiroth realized this, he easily stabbed Cloud with the Masamune, but he was already tremendous injured at the time, was holding Jenova's head, was stunned, and probably dying of bloodlost. Never mind the fact that Sephiroth (like always) wasn't taking Cloud serious, so I don't really think is a great epic feat. Cloud's success in getting rid of Sephiroth was just n00b luck. He underperformed in everything and couldn't make it into SOLDIER. He sucked, reason of why Sephiroth wasn't taking him serious in the first place. 🥷
Oh, and Cloud was stabbed in his stomach, not chest. 😐
Originally posted by TacDavey
No, GreiverSquall, it isn't like that at all. I'm not saying Cloud is stronger than Squall because Squall doesn't show any super strength feats, I'm attacking the stance that Squall is as strong as Cloud. Why say that? I'm simply asking for evidence just like you would if I said "Cloud is as good as Squall." I see NO reason to assume that Squall has super strength unless evidence for that can be supplied, but no one has done it yet, so I wonder.The simple act of Cloud wielding that sword like he does is evidence of above average strength.
I fully agree there are things we can take from the battles. We know Tifa fights with her fists, rather than a gun even though she fights with them in a battle mode.
There ARE things we can know from them, but not everything we see in them is acceptable. Like a lot of the Limit Breaks. But I pointed out the difference between what is acceptable and what isn't. Cloud's victory pose is fully acceptable. Squall's Blasting Zone is not. Squall's Blasting Zone is exaggerated, and causes contradictions/problems with the reality of the game outside the Battle. Cloud's victory animation does neither of those two things. Unless you can point out to me what part of his animation is exaggerated or causes problems outside of the battle.
Cloud wields the Buster Sword just as any Shin-Ra infantry could have done it. Taking his battle animations with the sword as evidence (as you many times claimed) is invalid, less to claim that's super-strength, he never wields his sword like paper, he wields it normally, and you don't need Jenova Cells to do so. Sephiroth wields a Katana, is Cloud physically stronger than Sephiroth? No, right? Just because someone wields a big sword does not mean is stronger than someone that does not wield a big sword, less to assume it will win a fight. If not Cloud would had an automatic win against Zidane, who wields daggers.
If Cloud is SO strong he wouldn't have needed to dress up as a woman to get pass some fat security guards (and getting raped in the process). 🤓
Squall showed super-speed and agility in the D-District Prison when he saved Zell, Cloud has shown none near that level of speed in his game. 🪩
Also, I can point out what is acceptable or not from an animation, ya know? Squall's Renzokuken is canon, thus is acceptable. 😬