Cloud vs Squall

Originally posted by TacDavey
That's completely irrelevant. The point was he took a sword through his chest, pulled himself up along the blade, and threw a full grown man off a cliff, all while having a sword sticking through his middle.

That doesn't sound worthless to me, for whatever reason, while this was going on Cloud wasn't worthless. Which means your point that the Buster Sword isn't anything special because Cloud lifted it as a grunt is refuted because when he was lifting it, he wasn't being worthless.

Ok so having a huge hole in your back, suffering from the blood loss, and holding mommy's head, definitely wouldn't hinder anyone's abilities by a lot. By the way it was his stomach. Besides considering Cloud was so much stronger during ACC, I would wonder why he wasn't able to throw Sephiroth off again when he was impaled if none of those injuries mattered.

It still does to me 😱
How is it refuted? Has there ever been anyone that said the sword was heavy? Or any measurement to prove it is heavy? At the very least a description to it to say it is heavy? He was still worthless during that moment where he threw Sephiroth off of him, Sephiroth was just more worthless during that moment to allow that to happen despite those "non-painful-or-relevant" injuries.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Sephiroth being impaled with a blade the size of the Buster Sword in his back is aberrant, Cloud's cowardly attack should've cut Sephiroth in half, imagine all of that passing through a spine, but whatever, 'FF logic' says otherwise. The point is, once Sephiroth realized this, he easily stabbed Cloud with the Masamune, but he was already tremendous injured at the time, was holding Jenova's head, was stunned, and probably dying of bloodlost. Never mind the fact that Sephiroth (like always) wasn't taking Cloud serious, so I don't really think is a great epic feat. Cloud's success in getting rid of Sephiroth was just n00b luck. He underperformed in everything and couldn't make it into SOLDIER. He sucked, reason of why Sephiroth wasn't taking him serious in the first place. 🥷

GUUUURRRAAAAGHHHAAAGGUUUAAAGGGHHHHH!

For the very last time. I DON'T CARE THAT SEPHIROTH WAS WEAKENED! That's not the point, how is this hard for you? Honestly.

It's not that fact that he did it to Sephiroth that is amazing. It's that he did it at all. Hell, Sephiroth could be replaced by a man sized wooden statue and it would still be a nice feat. The point is, he got stabbed, and that would floor most anyone else. But did Cloud go down, like a normal guy?

NOPE.

Instead, he pulled that nice little stunt I described to you. THAT is what is amazing. NOT the fact that he did ANYTHING to Sephiroth. Sephiroth is completely irrelevant. Sephiroth shouldn't even be mentioned. Sephiroth can die for all I care. How many people do you know can get stabbed through with a blade, remain conscious, pull themselves up the blade, and then, with the blade still sticking through them, lift something that weighs as much as a full grown man, and throw it off a cliff WITH the very sword sticking out of you?

That is all that is important. Not who he's doing it to, or what physical condition they are in.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Cloud wields the Buster Sword just as any Shin-Ra infantry could have done it. Taking his battle animations with the sword as evidence (as you many times claimed) is invalid, less to claim that's super-strength, he never wields his sword like paper, he wields it normally, and you don't need Jenova Cells to do so. Sephiroth wields a Katana, is Cloud physically stronger than Sephiroth? No, right? Just because someone wields a big sword does not mean is stronger than someone that does not wield a big sword, less to assume it will win a fight. If not Cloud would had an automatic win against Zidane, who wields daggers.

I know. He wields it like a normal sword. But it isn't a normal sword, is it? No, it isn't. It's about ten times bigger and ten times heavier than a normal sword, yet he swings it just as easily as you or I could swing a short sword.

I never said Cloud was stronger than Squall. Never. I simply asked for you or anyone else to provide reasons for claiming Squall is as strong as Cloud. That's it. If you can't provide them, you can't make the claim. Simple as that.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Squall showed super-speed and agility in the D-District Prison when he saved Zell, Cloud has shown none near that level of speed in his game. 🪩

Also, I can point out what is acceptable or not from an animation, ya know? Squall's Renzokuken is canon, thus is acceptable. 😬

I don't know the scene you are talking about, but it still has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

We've already been over the Limit Break debate, GreiverSquall, so unless you have any new points that you didn't try last time, I have no interest in getting back into it again.

Originally posted by SpadeKing
Ok so having a huge hole in your back, suffering from the blood loss, and holding mommy's head, definitely wouldn't hinder anyone's abilities by a lot. By the way it was his stomach. Besides considering Cloud was so much stronger during ACC, I would wonder why he wasn't able to throw Sephiroth off again when he was impaled if none of those injuries mattered.

Read above.

Originally posted by SpadeKing
It still does to me 😱
How is it refuted? Has there ever been anyone that said the sword was heavy? Or any measurement to prove it is heavy? At the very least a description to it to say it is heavy? He was still worthless during that moment where he threw Sephiroth off of him, Sephiroth was just more worthless during that moment to allow that to happen despite those "non-painful-or-relevant" injuries.

Have you seen the Buster Sword? It's massive. And it's metal. Thus it's heavy. That's just kinda how things work, you know.

Originally posted by TacDavey
GUUUURRRAAAAGHHHAAAGGUUUAAAGGGHHHHH!

For the very last time. I DON'T CARE THAT SEPHIROTH WAS WEAKENED! That's not the point, how is this hard for you? Honestly.

It's not that fact that he did it to Sephiroth that is amazing. It's that he did it at all. Hell, Sephiroth could be replaced by a man sized wooden statue and it would still be a nice feat. The point is, he got stabbed, and that would floor most anyone else. But did Cloud go down, like a normal guy?

NOPE.

Instead, he pulled that nice little stunt I described to you. THAT is what is amazing. NOT the fact that he did ANYTHING to Sephiroth. Sephiroth is completely irrelevant. Sephiroth shouldn't even be mentioned. Sephiroth can die for all I care. How many people do you know can get stabbed through with a blade, remain conscious, pull themselves up the blade, and then, with the blade still sticking through them, lift something that weighs as much as a full grown man, and throw it off a cliff WITH the very sword sticking out of you?

That is all that is important. Not who he's doing it to, or what physical condition they are in.

🤨

I don't care if you don't care. Is just the way it is.

If the wooden statue is just as destroyed as Sephiroth was, (and considering that he wasn't taking Cloud serious) then it isn't a great feat at all, if you ask me. No one is considerd 'normal' in the FF Universe, and Cloud did went down, it's not like he just walked away after it, he was dying. So in the end, Cloud was about to die, and Sephiroth to live (since we know Sephiroth didn't basically died after all). 🙂

Now to make Cloud look good, you are comparing him to real life people. I can make amazing comparisons too. Cloud wouldn't have survived if the man holding the sword would have been Genesis, for example, so Sephiroth being injured is important, if he wanted he could have killed Cloud, but he didn't. Never mind the fact that Sephiroth wasn't even surprised when Cloud lifted the Buster Sword, which also means it wasn't anything important at all, like I said, because anyone could have done it. 😐

Plus, you completely ignored the point in AC, when Cloud is stabbed the same way he is in the Reactor and he can't even breathe, so in the end, it DOES matter, Sephiroth is who allowed Cloud to pull that of, because, you know, his injuries and his arrogancy. 😐

Originally posted by TacDavey
I know. He wields it like a normal sword. But it isn't a normal sword, is it? No, it isn't. It's about ten times bigger and ten times heavier than a normal sword, yet he swings it just as easily as you or I could swing a short sword.

I never said Cloud was stronger than Squall. Never. I simply asked for you or anyone else to provide reasons for claiming Squall is as strong as Cloud. That's it. If you can't provide them, you can't make the claim. Simple as that.

I don't know the scene you are talking about, but it still has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

We've already been over the Limit Break debate, GreiverSquall, so unless you have any new points that you didn't try last time, I have no interest in getting back into it again.

Read above.

I didn't make any claim. And what the hell do you mean by if Squall is as strong as Cloud? That means Cloud is stronger or what, huh?

I am talking about the scene in the prison when Squall jumps fom far away, saves Zell and in just a blink of an eye. I'm lazy to find the vid. It does, I wanna see Cloud performing something so fast, it's a feat for Squall and now it does NOT matter? Lmao.

You do realize Renzokuken IS canon, right? Unless YOU have some points against Limit Breaks (not the ones you always mentions like Supernova or Blasting Zone, since those are oBvioUs-Duh), then I have no more things to add.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
🤨

I don't care if you don't care. Is just the way it is.

If the wooden statue is just as destroyed as Sephiroth was, (and considering that he wasn't taking Cloud serious) then it isn't a great feat at all, if you ask me. No one is considerd 'normal' in the FF Universe, and Cloud did went down, it's not like he just walked away after it, he was dying. So in the end, Cloud was about to die, and Sephiroth to live (since we know Sephiroth didn't basically died after all). 🙂

You just aren't getting this are you? Okay, Sephiroth can kick the snot out of Cloud. If Sephiroth was full strength, he would have killed Cloud easily. I'm not saying that isn't true. Here's the thing.

Thats

not

the

feat.

The feat is simply the fact that Cloud has the ability to toss full grown men around with a sword through his middle. THAT right there is the feat. Sephiroth is completely unimportant. The amazing thing is not that he did it to Sephirtoth, it's just that he did it. Period.

Who cares about AC? He didn't do it because Sephiroth wasn't weakened. That doesn't mean he couldn't do it at all. Like I said up above. The feat is his ability to pull a maneuver like that given the chance. Not that he did it to Sephiroth.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
I didn't make any claim. And what the hell do you mean by if Squall is as strong as Cloud? That means Cloud is stronger or what, huh?

I am talking about the scene in the prison when Squall jumps fom far away, saves Zell and in just a blink of an eye. I'm lazy to find the vid. It does, I wanna see Cloud performing something so fast, it's a feat for Squall and now it does NOT matter? Lmao.

You do realize Renzokuken IS canon, right? Unless YOU have some points against Limit Breaks (not the ones you always mentions like Supernova or Blasting Zone, since those are oBvioUs-Duh), then I have no more things to add.

Cloud has super strength. Does Squall? If the answer to that is yes. I want evidence. That's it.

It doesn't matter because it's not what we are talking about. We are talking about Cloud's strength, you are bringing in a completely separate argument.

Good, then let's not bring up Limit Breaks again.

Originally posted by TacDavey
GUUUURRRAAAAGHHHAAAGGUUUAAAGGGHHHHH!

For the very last time. I DON'T CARE THAT SEPHIROTH WAS WEAKENED! That's not the point, how is this hard for you? Honestly.

Have you seen the Buster Sword? It's massive. And it's metal. Thus it's heavy. That's just kinda how things work, you know.

It is an obvious work of fantasy, doesn't mean the metal is in fact heavy, Cloud stated it wasn't actually heavy, Cloud as a grunt handled it pretty well, Cloud as a grunt is the basic equivalent of those guys you one hit kill in the beginning of FF7. It could possibly be titanium which isn't exactly all that heavy, I would say aluminum, but that is ridiculous even for FF or something like the mithril in LotR, though it was chainmail it was described light as a feather and proved to be harder than most other metals and I'm sure the realistic chainmail would've felt noticeable on someone of a Hobbit's size despite the light weight.

Point is he can throw a heavily weakened Sephiroth off which apparently doesn't matter but he can't do that a second time when he is so much stronger, explain that before you say his injuries do not matter and I may read the rest of the post.

BTW I have a massive metal tv stand larger than the buster sword and I can lift it quite easily, balance though is another problem cause of my wingspan ermm

Originally posted by TacDavey
You just aren't getting this are you? Okay, Sephiroth can kick the snot out of Cloud. If Sephiroth was full strength, he would have killed Cloud easily. I'm not saying that isn't true. Here's the thing.

Thats

not

the

feat.

The feat is simply the fact that Cloud has the ability to toss full grown men around with a sword through his middle. THAT right there is the feat. Sephiroth is completely unimportant. The amazing thing is not that he did it to Sephirtoth, it's just that he did it. Period.

Who cares about AC? He didn't do it because Sephiroth wasn't weakened. That doesn't mean he couldn't do it at all. Like I said up above. The feat is his ability to pull a maneuver like that given the chance. Not that he did it to Sephiroth.

I get it just fine. Sephiroth, even injured, could have killed Cloud. You know why Cloud did it? Because Sephiroth basically allowed it, but he didn't allowed it in AC when Cloud was stronger, and Cloud didn't do it because he couldn't, he didn't even had the strength to retaliate. But again, seeing all the advantages Cloud had in the Reactor, it does not surprise me. It's not like Cloud just walked away without injuries after that either, he was dying.

Cloud was at full strength, when he tried to fight Sephiroth he lost in 2 seconds, and suffered a small stab with a Katana in his stomach. He wasn't even losing so much blood because it had the weapon nailed in his body.

Sephiroth had his spine totally destroyed, had his body almost cut in half, he was in an agony state due bloodlost, and he wasn't even taking the guy serious. 😬

It's not even fair. 🙁

Originally posted by TacDavey
Cloud has super strength. Does Squall? If the answer to that is yes. I want evidence. That's it.

It doesn't matter because it's not what we are talking about. We are talking about Cloud's strength, you are bringing in a completely separate argument.

Good, then let's not bring up Limit Breaks again.

Due Jenova Cells? Cool, Squall does due GFs.

It does, I'm talking about a fight in general. Squall has super-speed and agility. Does Cloud? If the answer to that is yes, I want to hear da evidence.

Limit Breaks are canon. And you know what?

Lion Heart > > > Omnislash. 😂

Originally posted by SpadeKing
It is an obvious work of fantasy, doesn't mean the metal is in fact heavy, Cloud stated it wasn't actually heavy, Cloud as a grunt handled it pretty well, Cloud as a grunt is the basic equivalent of those guys you one hit kill in the beginning of FF7. It could possibly be titanium which isn't exactly all that heavy, I would say aluminum, but that is ridiculous even for FF or something like the mithril in LotR, though it was chainmail it was described light as a feather and proved to be harder than most other metals and I'm sure the realistic chainmail would've felt noticeable on someone of a Hobbit's size despite the light weight.

Point is he can throw a heavily weakened Sephiroth off which apparently doesn't matter but he can't do that a second time when he is so much stronger, explain that before you say his injuries do not matter and I may read the rest of the post.

BTW I have a massive metal tv stand larger than the buster sword and I can lift it quite easily, balance though is another problem cause of my wingspan ermm

Where is your evidence? Where is the evidence that the Buster Sword is made out of a special metal that makes it as light as a regular sword? Where? Cloud was displaying above normal abilities in that reactor if you hadn't noticed. He lifted a full grown man off the ground with a sword sticking out of him. I'm sorry, that's just not something an average everyday peasant can do. Also, I already responded to the AC point. Had you read the rest of the post, you would have found it. Shame.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
I get it just fine. Sephiroth, even injured, could have killed Cloud. You know why Cloud did it? Because Sephiroth basically allowed it, but he didn't allowed it in AC when Cloud was stronger, and Cloud didn't do it because he couldn't, he didn't even had the strength to retaliate. But again, seeing all the advantages Cloud had in the Reactor, it does not surprise me. It's not like Cloud just walked away without injuries after that either, he was dying.

Cloud was at full strength, when he tried to fight Sephiroth he lost in 2 seconds, and suffered a small stab with a Katana in his stomach. He wasn't even losing so much blood because it had the weapon nailed in his body.

Sephiroth had his spine totally destroyed, had his body almost cut in half, he was in an agony state due bloodlost, and he wasn't even taking the guy serious. 😬

It's not even fair. 🙁

Why did you just say all that? Cause it sounds a bit like maybe you aren't getting it. Sephiroths condition doesn't matter. You know why? Because Sephiroth doesn't matter. I already admitted Sephiroth would have killed Cloud had he been at full strength. Thanks for repeating that once again.

Yes, he was able to pull that move off because Sephiroth was weakened. Yes Sephiroth would have killed him had he not been weakened. We've been over this time and time again, you can stop repeating yourself now. I KNOW all of that.

But, as I have been saying for the past, like, 5 posts. None of that is relevant, because none of that is the feat. The feat is this:

Cloud can take stab wounds like a champ and toss full grown men around with the very same sword sticking out of him.

I want you to examine that last sentence VERY carefully and tell me where exactly Sephiroth is mentioned. Where? I don't see him at all, do you? No? Maybe because he's not a part of the feat? Oh yeah, that's probably it. And I think it goes without saying that if Sephiroth himself isn't part of the feat, his physical condition isn't either.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Due Jenova Cells? Cool, Squall does due GFs.

It does, I'm talking about a fight in general. Squall has super-speed and agility. Does Cloud? If the answer to that is yes, I want to hear da evidence.

Limit Breaks are canon. And you know what?

Lion Heart > > > Omnislash. 😂

I know Cloud has above human strength because of how he wields a 2 ton sword. Where is Squall's super strength feat? All you have to do is provide something from FF8 where we can see Squall has super strength. If you can't, then you can't claim he does, and thus you can't claim he is as strong as Cloud. Now provide evidence or don't. Stop stalling. Can you provide evidence for Squall's super strength or not?

Well I'm NOT talking about the fight in general. I gave up on that a long long long time ago.

Again, we're done with Limit Breaks.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Where is your evidence? Where is the evidence that the Buster Sword is made out of a special metal that makes it as light as a regular sword? Where?

Did I say that it is made of any of those metals? I said it could possibly be that correct? You on the other hand are just trying to sound smart for some reason and have yet to put up evidence on things you CLAIM (keyword before something else irrelevant is said) as facts.

I refuse to read the rest of anything until you start answering with facts that make sense now and stop taking statements out of text. Cause it's going nowhere for you still

Originally posted by SpadeKing
Did I say that it is made of any of those metals? I said it could possibly be that correct? You on the other hand are just trying to sound smart for some reason and have yet to put up evidence on things you CLAIM (keyword before something else irrelevant is said) as facts.

I refuse to read the rest of anything until you start answering with facts that make sense now and stop taking statements out of text. Cause it's going nowhere for you still

Okay, so you admit there is no evidence for that little hypothesis of yours. Unless you have evidence supporting it, it is meaningless.

Here's a little hypothesis of my own. Cloud is actually a god of destruction in human form and he just doesn't show it in FF7.

We can't have a debate run purely on POSSIBILITY. Maybe it's made of those metals. Maybe Cloud is a god of destruction. There has to be evidence.

What have I not provided evidence for? I have responded to everything you and GreiverSquall have said. What have I said that doesn't make sense? GreiverSquall seems perfectly able to read and respond to my points. Why are you having trouble?

Originally posted by TacDavey
Why did you just say all that? Cause it sounds a bit like maybe you aren't getting it. Sephiroths condition doesn't matter. You know why? Because Sephiroth doesn't matter. I already admitted Sephiroth would have killed Cloud had he been at full strength. Thanks for repeating that once again.

Yes, he was able to pull that move off because Sephiroth was weakened. Yes Sephiroth would have killed him had he not been weakened. We've been over this time and time again, you can stop repeating yourself now. I KNOW all of that.

But, as I have been saying for the past, like, 5 posts. None of that is relevant, because none of that is the feat. The feat is this:

Cloud can take stab wounds like a champ and toss full grown men around with the very same sword sticking out of him.

I want you to examine that last sentence VERY carefully and tell me where exactly Sephiroth is mentioned. Where? I don't see him at all, do you? No? Maybe because he's not a part of the feat? Oh yeah, that's probably it. And I think it goes without saying that if Sephiroth himself isn't part of the feat, his physical condition isn't either.

I'll make it simple for you.

Even weakened, Sephiroth could have killed Cloud, but like I said, he wasn't taking him serious. Yes, you don't mention Sephiroth in that paragraph, but you say Cloud can throw men while having a sword through his body, and apparently the fact that he was dying afterwards is 'irrelevant' now. I want to know if he can do the same if some of those 'men' weren't as weakened as Sephiroth was. Tell me, Cloud would have lifted and tossed Angeal, Genesis, or Zack? Answer.

Cloud was stronger in AC, he could toss Sephiroth? No? Hmm, I wonder why then.
Then he can't throw men with a sword through his body like a champ, it seems.

I can kill the best, and strongest martial artist in the world with a punch in the head if he's in agony. If he's holding me with his arms, while having his spine almost broken (I say almost because a normal person can't basically move), and dying from a tremendous bloodlost, I could easily break through, tossing him and beat him up, hell, he can even stab me with a knife in my stomach, it wouldn't make a damn difference, I would beat him anyway. But it wouldn't be a great feat at all. Considering he wasn't taking me serious either during the 'fight'. Now I'm pretty strong, huh?

Now let's try the same with the same martial artist at full strength, shall we?

Originally posted by TacDavey
he wields a 2 ton sword.

😆

Originally posted by TacDavey
Where is Squall's super strength feat? All you have to do is provide something from FF8 where we can see Squall has super strength. If you can't, then you can't claim he does, and thus you can't claim he is as strong as Cloud. Now provide evidence or don't. Stop stalling. Can you provide evidence for Squall's super strength or not?

Well I'm NOT talking about the fight in general. I gave up on that a long long long time ago.

Again, we're done with Limit Breaks.

Squall isn't as strong as Cloud, is stronger.
You don't need to be super-human to lift the Buster Sword at all. A ShinRa infantryman could lift it pretty well. Squall demolishing monsters like Elvoret with Renzokuken is an awesome strength feat. 😐

Except this is Cloud vs. Squall, ya know? Is Cloud as fast and agile as Squall? No? That's what I thought, he had to dress as a woman and take a bath with some gay guys, to break through a guy standing in the front of a door. Ask Aeris, she was there. 😖

Squall's already attacking you before you even think. He speed-blitzed and send unconscious an armed security guard in less than a second. Ask Zell, he was there. 😬

I lol'd at 2 ton sword too. But I'm guessing he was just being humorous.

Cloud. 😐

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
I'll make it simple for you.

Even weakened, Sephiroth could have killed Cloud, but like I said, he wasn't taking him serious. Yes, you don't mention Sephiroth in that paragraph, but you say Cloud can throw men while having a sword through his body, and apparently the fact that he was dying afterwards is 'irrelevant' now. I want to know if he can do the same if some of those 'men' weren't as weakened as Sephiroth was. Tell me, Cloud would have lifted and tossed Angeal, Genesis, or Zack? Answer.

Cloud was stronger in AC, he could toss Sephiroth? No? Hmm, I wonder why then.
Then he can't throw men with a sword through his body like a champ, it seems.

I can kill the best, and strongest martial artist in the world with a punch in the head if he's in agony. If he's holding me with his arms, while having his spine almost broken (I say almost because a normal person can't basically move), and dying from a tremendous bloodlost, I could easily break through, tossing him and beat him up, hell, he can even stab me with a knife in my stomach, it wouldn't make a damn difference, I would beat him anyway. But it wouldn't be a great feat at all. Considering he wasn't taking me serious either during the 'fight'. Now I'm pretty strong, huh?

Now let's try the same with the same martial artist at full strength, shall we?

See? That's where you are misunderstanding me. I'm not saying Cloud could beat Sephiroth in a fight. That's why Sephiroth wasn't important. THAT'S why it would work the same if it was just a wooden statue.

How many people do you know can lift a full grown man and toss him?

Not too many, I'd wager.

How many people do you know can take a stab wound all the way through their body and not only remain conscious, but pull themselves up the sword?

I doubt any.

How many people do you know can use the sword that is still sticking out of them and throw something that weighs as much as a full grown man off a cliff?

I'll answer this one for you. None.

THOSE are the feat. THOSE are what's important. Cloud did all of THOSE things and THOSE things are what is impressive. Sephiroth is not important. Only THOSE things that I just listed for you are.

And it's not impressive because he did it against the persons wishes. It's just impressive he did it at all. Notice the "other person" (be it Sephiroth, Genisis, Angeal, or Zack) is not mentioned at all in the feat. Not once. Because they aren't PART of the feat! Only THOSE things I listed are. Nothing more. Nothing less. Just THOSE.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Squall isn't as strong as Cloud, is stronger.
You don't need to be super-human to lift the Buster Sword at all. A ShinRa infantryman could lift it pretty well. Squall demolishing monsters like Elvoret with Renzokuken is an awesome strength feat. 😐

Except this is Cloud vs. Squall, ya know? Is Cloud as fast and agile as Squall? No? That's what I thought, he had to dress as a woman and take a bath with some gay guys, to break through a guy standing in the front of a door. Ask Aeris, she was there. 😖

Squall's already attacking you before you even think. He speed-blitzed and send unconscious an armed security guard in less than a second. Ask Zell, he was there. 😬

You may not need to be super human to lift the sword, but you need to be super human to wield it like Cloud does.

How do you take Renzokuken and give it a super strength tag? I see nothing super strong in that attack at all. It's just a bunch of slashes. And let's not forget that limit breaks just by themselves cannot prove an above human ability. It has to be backed up in the actual plot.

I know, but I'm not interested in getting back into a full blown Squall vs Cloud debate. And even if I was, the points we are debating right now should be finished before bringing in new ones.

Get me the video.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Okay, so you admit there is no evidence for that little hypothesis of yours. Unless you have evidence supporting it, it is meaningless.

Here's a little hypothesis of my own. Cloud is actually a god of destruction in human form and he just doesn't show it in FF7.

We can't have a debate run purely on POSSIBILITY. Maybe it's made of those metals. Maybe Cloud is a god of destruction. There has to be evidence.

What have I not provided evidence for? I have responded to everything you and GreiverSquall have said. What have I said that doesn't make sense? GreiverSquall seems perfectly able to read and respond to my points. Why are you having trouble?

There isn't no evidence, I already stated that even Cloud has said that it isn't heavy and there is of course the lack of evidence of it being heavy except the look of it. Now provide some evidence on that.

Unlike the other things you say, at least you said that one was a hypothesis, everything else (that you believe) has been stated as fact with no evidence.

Well provide evidence it is actually heavy or an amazing feat just to carry that weapon

Seriously read through your own posts, you only provide facts of things that are obvious facts that we already know, I'm quite sure I know more on this than you, read back through this topic I even corrected you and showed you the ultimania stuff. I'll just give you credit for not being that FFVII Zack Fair, despite the continuing repetitions of the same points that get downplayed.

Originally posted by TacDavey
See? That's where you are misunderstanding me. I'm not saying Cloud could beat Sephiroth in a fight. That's why Sephiroth wasn't important. THAT'S why it would work the same if it was just a wooden statue.

How many people do you know can lift a full grown man and toss him?

Not too many, I'd wager.

How many people do you know can take a stab wound all the way through their body and not only remain conscious, but pull themselves up the sword?

I doubt any.

How many people do you know can use the sword that is still sticking out of them and throw something that weighs as much as a full grown man off a cliff?

I'll answer this one for you. None.

THOSE are the feat. THOSE are what's important. Cloud did all of THOSE things and THOSE things are what is impressive. Sephiroth is not important. Only THOSE things that I just listed for you are.

And it's not impressive because he did it against the persons wishes. It's just impressive he did it at all. Notice the "other person" (be it Sephiroth, Genisis, Angeal, or Zack) is not mentioned at all in the feat. Not once. Because they aren't PART of the feat! Only THOSE things I listed are. Nothing more. Nothing less. Just THOSE.

And when did I said that you said that Sephiroth can be beaten by Cloud in a fight? Huh?

Well, fighters can lift people and toss them. And many people can remain conscious with a stab in the stomach. ermm

And how many people do you know can fight and beat armed soldiers and robots just with a sword? I bet none. See how that works? You love to mix real life physics and fictional physics.

Not really getting into Last Order, but wasn't Cloud also powered-up by Mako? His eyes are glowing, and I don't think it means nothing. Cloud wasn't even losing so much blood as Sephiroth by that small stab either, considering Sephiroth had his body almost cut in half and his bones broken. 😐

THOSE THINGS what? He did it once, and I already explained WHY he did it in the first place. Sephiroth isn't important? I wonder why he only did it to him, then.

None of those people are mentioned, maybe... You know, because Cloud couldn't do it against those? He at least couldn't against Sephiroth in AC when Cloud was stronger. Is a feat, but it isn't an epic great feat as you want to make it sound. Cloud was lucky.

Originally posted by TacDavey
You may not need to be super human to lift the sword, but you need to be super human to wield it like Cloud does.

How do you take Renzokuken and give it a super strength tag? I see nothing super strong in that attack at all. It's just a bunch of slashes. And let's not forget that limit breaks just by themselves cannot prove an above human ability. It has to be backed up in the actual plot.

I know, but I'm not interested in getting back into a full blown Squall vs Cloud debate. And even if I was, the points we are debating right now should be finished before bringing in new ones.

Get me the video.

Considering it can be perfectly wield by a mere infantryman, I don't think so. Considering Sephiroth wasn't even impressed, I don't think so. You also need to be 'super-human' to beat giant monsters with your fists, if that's the case.

If we go by the 'size' of a weapon then Zidane in FF is crap.
The warrior is more important than the weapon.

Lmao. The attack itself isn't the strength, Squall is. Squall pretty much demolishes giant monsters with it. Renzokuken is Squall's primary ability, and is also mentioned when you Scan Squall. Sorry, Limit Breaks are canon. What are the fights? Plot, right? They form part of the plot, yes? When we can see the characters fighting? INSIDE a battle, right? If you hasn't noticed, FF isn't a real time RPG. The amount of 'fights' you see outside a fight is vague, is zero. So stop pretending. You won't see 'fighting feats' outside a battle, they are almost nonexistent, outside... You know, the fights. 😐

YouTube video

9:32 to 9:42

Squall does it in less than a second and from far away. He sends an armed security guard to 'sleep' before he even shoots his machine gun, without breaking a sweat. Notice how he comes already in the air.

Originally posted by SpadeKing
There isn't no evidence, I already stated that even Cloud has said that it isn't heavy and there is of course the lack of evidence of it being heavy except the look of it. Now provide some evidence on that.

Unlike the other things you say, at least you said that one was a hypothesis, everything else (that you believe) has been stated as fact with no evidence.

Well provide evidence it is actually heavy or an amazing feat just to carry that weapon

Seriously read through your own posts, you only provide facts of things that are obvious facts that we already know, I'm quite sure I know more on this than you, read back through this topic I even corrected you and showed you the ultimania stuff. I'll just give you credit for not being that FFVII Zack Fair, despite the continuing repetitions of the same points that get downplayed.

WHAT?! Where is my evidence the Buster Sword is heavy?! It's a big metal sword! Unless there is reason to believe it isn't heavy, by default the more rational conclusion is that its heavy. Since big metal things usually are. I don't need to provide ANY evidence any more than I would need to provide evidence that a car is heavy.

I don't know when Cloud said it wasn't heavy, but it obviously isn't heavy for him.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
And when did I said that you said that Sephiroth can be beaten by Cloud in a fight? Huh?

Well, fighters can lift people and toss them. And many people can remain conscious with a stab in the stomach. ermm

And how many people do you know can fight and beat armed soldiers and robots just with a sword? I bet none. See how that works? You love to mix real life physics and fictional physics.

Not really getting into Last Order, but wasn't Cloud also powered-up by Mako? His eyes are glowing, and I don't think it means nothing. Cloud wasn't even losing so much blood as Sephiroth by that small stab either, considering Sephiroth had his body almost cut in half and his bones broken. 😐

THOSE THINGS what? He did it once, and I already explained WHY he did it in the first place. Sephiroth isn't important? I wonder why he only did it to him, then.

None of those people are mentioned, maybe... You know, because Cloud couldn't do it against those? He at least couldn't against Sephiroth in AC when Cloud was stronger. Is a feat, but it isn't an epic great feat as you want to make it sound. Cloud was lucky.

Ugh. No. Those people weren't mentioned because those people aren't important. Like I said. The feat is the pulling up a sword and throwing grown men around part. WHO he throws around isn't important at all.

Say what you want. What Cloud did in that reactor is NOT something that normal, everyday people can do. It just isn't.

I have no idea why Cloud's eyes were glowing in that anime. Blue soldier dudes don't get Mako infusions as far as I remember, only Soldiers get those, and the Sephiroth experiment failed on Zack BECAUSE of his enhancements. So I really don't know what the people who were putting that anime together were thinking, but in the end it doesn't really matter at all. Maybe he had Mako, maybe he didn't. It doesn't really change anything. You still have Weaker Cloud and Stronger Cloud.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Considering it can be perfectly wield by a mere infantryman, I don't think so. Considering Sephiroth wasn't even impressed, I don't think so. You also need to be 'super-human' to beat giant monsters with your fists, if that's the case.

If we go by the 'size' of a weapon then Zidane in FF is crap.
The warrior is more important than the weapon.

Lmao. The attack itself isn't the strength, Squall is. Squall pretty much demolishes giant monsters with it. Renzokuken is Squall's primary ability, and is also mentioned when you Scan Squall. Sorry, Limit Breaks are canon. What are the fights? Plot, right? They form part of the plot, yes? When we can see the characters fighting? INSIDE a battle, right? If you hasn't noticed, FF isn't a real time RPG. The amount of 'fights' you see outside a fight is vague, is zero. So stop pretending. You won't see 'fighting feats' outside a battle, they are almost nonexistent, outside... You know, the fights. 😐

9:32 to 9:42

Squall does it in less than a second and from far away. He sends an armed security guard to 'sleep' before he even shoots his machine gun, without breaking a sweat. Notice how he comes already in the air.

It wasn't perfectly wielded. He picked it up and charged Sephiroth. There was no fancy swordplay there, and again. Cloud was in rare form that day. No mere infantry man could have done what he did seconds after either, so during that time Cloud wasn't just some "infantry man".

I'm NOT going by size. But if I see someone pick up a giant bolder, the safe bet is on them having super strength. Thus, when I see someone wielding a huge metal sword like Cloud does, the logical conclusion is he has super strength.

Okay, so Renzokuken is Squall's primary attack. Remind me again how that means he has super strength cause I'm still not getting it. He slashes monsters with it. Thus he's super strong? No. All that shows is he... slashes monsters with a sword. Guess what. Almost every character in every video game EVER does that. It doesn't show super strength at all. And again, Limit Breaks aren't trust worthy. Remember Blasting Zone?

Oh COME ON. There is NO super speed there at all! He jumps behind the guy and slashes him. He isn't moving any faster than someone should had they just jumped through the air. Sorry. You're going to have to do better than that.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Ugh. No. Those people weren't mentioned because those people aren't important. Like I said. The feat is the pulling up a sword and throwing grown men around part. WHO he throws around isn't important at all.

Say what you want. What Cloud did in that reactor is NOT something that normal, everyday people can do. It just isn't.

I have no idea why Cloud's eyes were glowing in that anime. Blue soldier dudes don't get Mako infusions as far as I remember, only Soldiers get those, and the Sephiroth experiment failed on Zack BECAUSE of his enhancements. So I really don't know what the people who were putting that anime together were thinking, but in the end it doesn't really matter at all. Maybe he had Mako, maybe he didn't. It doesn't really change anything. You still have Weaker Cloud and Stronger Cloud.

He could get rid of a dying Sephiroth by all the advantages he had at hand, and you jump to 'Cloud can throw any men while having a weapon passing through him'? Lolz. Sorry, he just couldn't against any of the people I have mentioned. He couldn't when he was much stronger. Deal with it. 😬

I think yes, he couldn't even make it into SOLDIER, there were hundred of people much stronger than Cloud.

I'm just letting you know what I see. And I can see an enhanced Cloud in the scene, which obviously could get rid of a dying man. Cloud could have received a lil enhancement since he was being exposed near the Mako energy.

Originally posted by TacDavey
It wasn't perfectly wielded. He picked it up and charged Sephiroth. There was no fancy swordplay there, and again. Cloud was in rare form that day. No mere infantry man could have done what he did seconds after either, so during that time Cloud wasn't just some "infantry man".

I'm NOT going by size. But if I see someone pick up a giant bolder, the safe bet is on them having super strength. Thus, when I see someone wielding a huge metal sword like Cloud does, the logical conclusion is he has super strength.

Okay, so Renzokuken is Squall's primary attack. Remind me again how that means he has super strength cause I'm still not getting it. He slashes monsters with it. Thus he's super strong? No. All that shows is he... slashes monsters with a sword. Guess what. Almost every character in every video game EVER does that. It doesn't show super strength at all. And again, Limit Breaks aren't trust worthy. Remember Blasting Zone?

Oh COME ON. There is NO super speed there at all! He jumps behind the guy and slashes him. He isn't moving any faster than someone should had they just jumped through the air. Sorry. You're going to have to do better than that.

It was wielded perfectly, if you ask me. Watch LO and CC, both shows Cloud doing the same. OBVIOUSLY there was no display of swordsmanship, Cloud sucked, remember? 🙂 Yeah, sure, read above.

Hmm, then Sephiroth doesn't have super-strength, neither any FF character, with the exception of Cloud, Zack or Angeal. Biased much?

Let me see... Primary attack = canon, you get it now? Cool.
Yeah, but, those slashes are usually... far more powerful than any normal slashes. Haven't you noticed?!?! Besides, in this case is good to know how he demolishes giant monsters with it, and for that, you need something called physical strength.

That was super-speed, bro. REALLY?! He comes from behind?! Damn, I didn't know that. I'll tell you what he did. He sends the guard to ''sleep'' without breaking sweat. Don't believe it was fast? It was less than a second. Still don't believe me?! Oh man, he was coming from far away, notice how he's already on air and from above the prison's center. He's even with a blue aura. Incredibly fast, if you ask me.

Nice dowplaying. 🙂

What Cloud does to break through a guy standing on a door? HE DRESS AS A WOMAN! 💃

Originally posted by TacDavey
WHAT?! Where is my evidence the Buster Sword is heavy?! It's a big metal sword! Unless there is reason to believe it isn't heavy, by default the more rational conclusion is that its heavy. Since big metal things usually are. I don't need to provide ANY evidence any more than I would need to provide evidence that a car is heavy.

I don't know when Cloud said it wasn't heavy, but it obviously isn't heavy for him.

That isn't evidence, as a matter of fact there is an accurate rendition of the Buster Sword created by trueswords and it does happen to be steel and weighs in at 16lbs.

Are you actually trying to say the Buster Sword's size/weight can be compared to that of a car 😐 Of course a car is heavy when you consider the engine, battery, wiring, exhaust pipes, alloys, interior, etc.... You're not to good at these comparisons 😬

It obviously shouldn't be heavy for anyone in that world who can fight if Cloud can carry it and IDC when he said, just read it while reading through about the Buster Sword to see if there was any solid evidence on what you claim.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Oh COME ON. There is NO super speed there at all! He jumps behind the guy and slashes him. He isn't moving any faster than someone should had they just jumped through the air. Sorry. You're going to have to do better than that.

Look at the angle....it's insane.

He went from that first picture I posted to this one in about .4 seconds, unless you want to count that little slide he did at the end its probably more like .8, but thats really just him slowing himself down from the velocity of the leap. Given the angle and speed that he was coming down...he probably just jumped from the other side of the room. And anybody that played final fantasy 8 can tell you that aint no small room lol

Griever I'm pretty sure you got him with this arguement. Well back off to play StarCraft2 any of you guys play??? lol

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Cloud. 😐