How many Colossuses(is that correct?) does it take to beat a Juggernaut?

Originally posted by newjak86
As stated before by Cresh heat and sound are both nothing more than Vibrations.
Next yes they have been shown to work but in another canon source Juggernaut was stripped of all organs and flesh and was still able to move without muscles, talk without vocal chords, and had no nervous system to send messages to his body. That means that in turn he doesn't need those systems to havehis body function properly therefore an attack on those systems should have no effect on Cain.

Which as I stated before being the higher feat is the one that is to be used.

Heat and sound are more than simply vibrations, they are energy. They simply require a medium to transfer through.

Also, that "feat" is immaterial. If he doesn't need a brain he wouldn't be susceptible to mental manipulation, but he's been psionically put down more times than he's walked around without a brain.

The numerous times he's been put down by direct sensory assault far outweighs the one time he was a walking skeleton.

well, my theory works even if he doesn't need a brain because his memories and personality are abviously seperate from his brain when he is a walking skeleton so a psychic could still give the emotional trauma which i described. So it is possible yet that my theory stands.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Heat and sound are more than simply vibrations, they are energy. They simply require a medium to transfer through.

Also, that "feat" is immaterial. If he doesn't need a brain he wouldn't be susceptible to mental manipulation, but he's been psionically put down more times than he's walked around without a brain.

The numerous times he's been put down by direct sensory assault far outweighs the one time he was a walking skeleton.

Secondly he doen't need to eat or sleep as well which not eating deprives your body of essential nutrients which make the body function. No sleeping means his body should always be burning energy at a high rate through those materials. Meaning he would have to consume a ton of food for him to not be able to sleep but we already know Cain doesn't need to eat. 🙄
So yes his body doesn't function like a normal humans body otherwise he wouldn't be able to survive with what he is said by marvel to be able to do.

Therefore attacks on those systems would have no effect on him if you want to account for all his high end feats. If you want to go by one lower-end feat though go ahead there is other proof out there against it.

Originally posted by newjak86
Yes sonics are an energy attack that need a medium to transfer through but your not getting it are you cain has proven not only in the Skeletal Bit that he doesn't need basic human organ systems to function. The fact he doesn't breath, means that his body doesn't need to take in Oxygen which by the way if you don't breath you don't get oxygen to the Brain and therefore die not Cain though.

Secondly he doen't need to eat or sleep as well which not eating deprives your body of essential nutrients which make the body function. No sleeping means his body should always be burning energy at a high rate through those materials. Meaning he would have to consume a ton of food for him to not be able to sleep but we already know Cain doesn't need to eat.
So yes his body doesn't function like a normal humans body otherwise he wouldn't be able to survive with what he is said by marvel to be able to do.

Therefore attacks on those systems would have no effect on him if you want to account for all his high end feats. If you want to go by one lower-end feat though go ahead there is other proof out there against it.

That's beside the point and flawed logic Newjak.

By your and the other's reasoning, that feat would also mean telepathy shouldn't work on him because he doesn't require a brain, but we both know telepathy does. It's not that cut and dry, which I'm sure you know because you've always displayed that you can look at things objectively.

Juggernaut operating without a brain does not discount all the times direct assaults on his brain have worked. The evidence is far more substantial that sensory attacks work on him than they do not because there are more occurances.

Originally posted by illadelph12
That's beside the point and flawed logic Newjak.

By your and the other's reasoning, that feat would also mean telepathy shouldn't work on him because he doesn't require a brain, but we both know telepathy does. It's not that cut and dry, which I'm sure you know because you've always displayed that you can look at things objectively.

Juggernaut operating without a brain does not discount all the times direct assaults on his brain have worked. The evidence is far more substantial that sensory attacks work on him than they do not because there are more occurances.

For one alot of TP users have have roots in Magic and cosmic power like Dr. Strange and Silver Surfer.

It calls into question the the Astral Plane a place only TP users can get people to. If TP was a purely physical aspect then how can people seperate their mind from their body and see without the physical elements of their body helping them.

Also if TP was a pure physical element people like Magneto would have it. While he does hvae some TP-Like abilities he doesn't possess the finer aspects of it. Like the ability to read minds or go to the Astral Plane.

Originally posted by newjak86
Not qiute as your logic requires that TP be a purely physical trait that directly attacks the mind. There are instances an in most occasions where this is not shown in Marvel. And that there is no seperation between the brain and mind.

For one alot of TP users have have roots in Magic and cosmic power like Dr. Strange and Silver Surfer.

It calls into question the the Astral Plane a place only TP users can get people to. If TP was a purely physical aspect then how can people seperate their mind from their body and see without the physical elements of their body helping them.

Also if TP was a pure physical element people like Magneto would have it. While he does hvae some TP-Like abilities he doesn't possess the finer aspects of it. Like the ability to read minds or go to the Astral Plane.

No, you're misundestanding my point.

I'm saying that in order to be influenced by telepathy the target must have a brain.

You can't use telepathy on a rock.

Due to the instance of Juggernaut walking around without a brain, your saying a being without a brain can still be effected by telepathy, because Juggernaut can be.

That's illogical, and untrue.

As for ascending to the astral plain, it's a matter of your consciousness leaving your physical body. It's still a transference of energy. It's simply a disembodied consciousness. Astral energy is still energy, and is still transferable, even to the state of matter, as X-Man has displayed.

That doesn't have any bearing on Juggenaut not being vulnerable to sensory stimuli as he's always been portrayed to be.

Originally posted by illadelph12
No, you're misundestanding my point.

I'm saying that in order to be influenced by telepathy the target must have a brain.

You can't use telepathy on a rock.

Due to the instance of Juggernaut walking around without a brain, your saying a being without a brain can still be effected by telepathy, because Juggernaut can be.

That's illogical, and untrue.

As for ascending to the astral plain, it's a matter of your consciousness leaving your physical body. It's still a transference of energy. It's simply a disembodied consciousness. Astral energy is still energy, and is still transferable, even to the state of matter, as X-Man has displayed.

That doesn't have any bearing on Juggenaut not being vulnerable to sensory stimuli as he's always been portrayed to be.

Infact your little explentation on Astral forms even helps my standpoint. seeing that in order for a person to have an Astral Form one must be able to seperate their mind from their body and exprience things without Physical stimuli because an Astral Form does not possess any of the sensory organs needed to take in inout.

Originally posted by newjak86
I understand perfectly what your saying and what I'm saying is that in Marvel there is quite a bit of evidence to point that there is the mind and the brain two different entities if you will.

Infact your little explentation on Astral forms even helps my standpoint. seeing that in order for a person to have an Astral Form one must be able to seperate their mind from their body and exprience things without Physical stimuli because an Astral Form does not possess any of the sensory organs needed to take in inout.

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but I don't see how a psychic's ability to astral project and leave their body has anything to do with Juggernaut's vulnerabilty. The ability of your consciousness being able to leave your body in energy form and ascend to another plane of awareness has no bearing on Juggernaut's brain being vulnerable to sensory stimuli on the physical plane.

Thought is simply a form of energy, and all energy is transferable.

It makes perfect sense that EM manipulators like Magneto or Silver Surfer would be able to attune to the wavelength, all energy is related. Hell, Silver Surfer has made thoughts into holographic images percievable on the physical plane.

Also, comic book martial artists have been displayed to grow in skill to the point where they attain mental abilities through discipline.

Prime example:

Stick, Daredevil's sensei.

It's a sensory ability.

Extra Sensory Perception, Extra Sensory Communication, and Extra Sensory Psychokinesis (bka telekinesis).

i've lost track of the debate. ill, you're saying juggs can be ko'd by overloading his senses and everyone else says that is not the case? is that what i'm gathering?

Originally posted by outarddwarf
well, my theory works even if he doesn't need a brain because his memories and personality are abviously seperate from his brain when he is a walking skeleton so a psychic could still give the emotional trauma which i described. So it is possible yet that my theory stands.

As for the organs, well... I thought my theory was pretty simple but nobody's awknowledging it.

Originally posted by leonidas
i've lost track of the debate. ill, you're saying juggs can be ko'd by overloading his senses and everyone else says that is not the case? is that what i'm gathering?

Originally posted by leonidas
i've lost track of the debate. ill, you're saying juggs can be ko'd by overloading his senses and everyone else says that is not the case? is that what i'm gathering?

Pretty much, and I have a scan to support my claim.

http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/...mrod00074it.jpg

^ Proof's in the puddin'.

Invalid url.

Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna
Invalid url.

Sorry about that:

http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/8241/xmennimrod00074it.jpg

stated by Nimrod
"You're skullcap may provide adequate protection from psionic attack, brute... but not tight-beam ultra-high frequency sonics."
"The pain this generates renders you incapable of thought. Much less action."

Originally posted by illadelph12
Sorry about that:

http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/8241/xmennimrod00074it.jpg

i've got the book. sonics obviously DO work. i agree with swank -- it seems pretty silly to say otherwise when it was clearly shown to be the case . . . 😕

Originally posted by diabloman

colossus does alright grabbing him there. but juggy throws his ass down after that. so yah id say it does take mrore than one for sure

Even though that's not cannon, Juggernaut doesn't look too concerned there.

Originally posted by illadelph12
From Marvel.com

http://www.marvel.com/universe/Juggernaut_%28Cain_Marko%29

It's composed of the same material brotha.

Damn, I swear I read it different somewhere. Oh well, you're right on that one.

Anyway, I know everyone's having a good, intelligent debate here, but my question is, what does that all have to do with all those Colossi fighting Juggernaut?

Originally posted by Tron
Even though that's not cannon, Juggernaut doesn't look too concerned there.

Damn, I swear I read it different somewhere. Oh well, you're right on that one.

Anyway, I know everyone's having a good, intelligent debate here, but my question is, what does that all have to do with all those Colossi fighting Juggernaut?

Yeah, we have kind of gotten away from the actual argument I've posed.

My point was that Juggernaut is vulnerable to sonic attacks, so a number of Colossi, say 1000, simultaneously full power thunderclapping, may create a sonic of a magnitude that it would down Juggernaut by overwhelming his tolerance to sensory stimuli.

Basically, they could bombard his brain with so much sound stimuli he gets overwhelmed and downed.

I understand they can't tune the sound they make to a specific frequency, but they can create it to such a magnitude that the frequency doesn't matter. Your receptors can only take so much.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Well, Nimrod proved that sonics worked on Juggernaut, so if you gathered enough Collosi and had them all sonic clap simultaneously, it might put Juggs down.

It's not the direct approach, but it's been shown to work.

My original post.

has juggs stood up to a nuclear attack? only prob i have with your post ill is that it implies ANY sound of large enough magnitude would be disabling. the explosion of a nuclear warhead would be deafening. nimrod used a tightly focused beam to attack. your attack would be omnidirectional. it's possible that the narrow beam worked on a particular portion of juggs brain, something that wouldn't be pinpointed by an omnidirectioanl attack of the kind you suggest. what is the biggest attack juggs has withstood?

I have a question. What would happen if the Colossi ended up buffering the sound with their bodies, since they'd basically be a crowd around him, and/or knocking themselves out?

i'm guessing ill has them lined up in front of him or in a semi circle. i doubt that would be the case.