Originally posted by Sam Z
No, I was talking about the part when he stands and moves his torso to dodge bullets. And when he runs and jumps he really does it almost as fast as bullets fly. Sorry but NW's dodging feats is still not a match for Fox. Fox is more in spider-man league when it comes to dodging.
Oh, dodging without jumping? Here Nightwing does the same while carrying Robin, and from closer range, even.
http://img526.imageshack.us/my.php?image=year1997dodgesbullets2ue.gif
Originally posted by Sam Z
When I was talking about shotout I wasn't talking about any special moment, I was just saying that how could one survive when there are dozens armed soldiers and no place to hide. Only dodging and fireing back. And if to talk about official story episodes then fight with Big Boss is the first thing that comes in mind. Big Boss took 5 armed soldiers who surrounded him in the open area with knife only. The same guy fought snake. Boss had a machine gun, Snake was unarmed. Snake won.
You see, during the entire game I really can't recall there being a moment where Snake was forced to fight armed soldiers with no place to hide. And if you are meaning his army moments and such...there are real people doing stuff like that, and I don't think they are able to do bullet dodging.
As for Big Boss, Nightwing also has better feats then he does. Beating 5 armed soldiers with only a knife would be nothing at all to Nightwing. Neither would be dodging bullets from one machine gun...
Originally posted by Sam Z
I don't see him dodging them after they are fired, seems he simply moves of their way.
No, actually he saves Catwoman from a bullets that had been fired before he started moving. Which is even more difficult.
Originally posted by DarkCrawlerSuper soilders
Oh, dodging without jumping? Here Nightwing does the same while carrying Robin, and from closer range, even.
http://img526.imageshack.us/my.php?image=year1997dodgesbullets2ue.gifYou see, during the entire game I really can't recall there being a moment where Snake was forced to fight armed soldiers with no place to hide. And if you are meaning his army moments and such...there are real people doing stuff like that, and I don't think they are able to do bullet dodging.
As for Big Boss, Nightwing also has better feats then he does. Beating 5 armed soldiers with only a knife would be nothing at all to Nightwing. Neither would be dodging bullets from one machine gun...
No, actually he saves Catwoman from a bullets that had been fired before he started moving. Which is even more difficult.
Originally posted by Sam Z
And Snake fought genetically enhanced super soldiers. Big different.
Super soldiers that hadn't really seen field action before the incident in game and were actually a bit of...stupid for what I have seen from the game...and Ex-Transsilvanian military force isn't the only type of enemy that Nightwing has fought...
Originally posted by Sam Z
How can you tell? 😕
REX had two machine guns:
[Armament]Machine Guns:2XG12.7 mm In The Nose (Covering 60 Arc To The Front)
Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Oh, dodging without jumping? Here Nightwing does the same while carrying Robin, and from closer range, even.
http://img526.imageshack.us/my.php?image=year1997dodgesbullets2ue.gif
I don't see him standing and dodging, he still jumps aside. And c'mone DC, are you really trying to compare NW's and Fox's speed? It's like comparing Batman's to Spider-man's. Both dodge bullets but one not as effective as anothers.
Originally posted by DarkCrawler
You see, during the entire game I really can't recall there being a moment where Snake was forced to fight armed soldiers with no place to hide. And if you are meaning his army moments and such...there are real people doing stuff like that, and I don't think they are able to do bullet dodging.[/B]
Actually he was in such moments, and not once. Remember when he met Meryl. There was absolutly no where to hide, and sircle room with Raiden. Cyborgs were jumping from everywhere. How could one survive that without dodging?
Originally posted by DarkCrawler
As for Big Boss, Nightwing also has better feats then he does. Beating 5 armed soldiers with only a knife would be nothing at all to Nightwing. Neither would be dodging bullets from one machine gun... [/B]
Dodging one machinegun isn't a problem when you fights soldiers or gangmembers but NOT Big Boss. Besides beating those five guys isn't the most impressive big boss feat. If NW had to fight Volgin h2h he would've been a friedwing now. You think that NW is faster than Snake only because Snake don't have to jump like a little monkey to beat his opponents.
Originally posted by DarkCrawler
No, actually he saves Catwoman from a bullets that had been fired before he started moving. Which is even more difficult. [/B]
Almost every MGS character has superhuman reflexes. I'm not even talking about dodging now. Solidus, Raiden and even Olga were diflecting bullets with their blades.
Originally posted by DarkCrawler
That didn't seem to be much different from normal soldiers. 😐And their bullets don't fly any faster then other's and seeing as those Ex-Militia are probably more experienced, since they seem to be older.
No, that's MUCH different from normal soldiers. Just look at them during the gameplay. Experience wasn't that important.
Originally posted by Sam Z
I don't see him standing and dodging, he still jumps aside. And c'mone DC, are you really trying to compare NW's and Fox's speed? It's like comparing Batman's to Spider-man's. Both dodge bullets but one not as effective as anothers.
But Nightwing is still capable of the same dodging feats that he does. No dodging feat Fox has done indicates that Nightwing wouldn't be capable of the same. And of course Nightwing jumps aside in that pic, he needs to take out those people...
Originally posted by Sam Z
Actually he was in such moments, and not once. Remember when he met Meryl. There was absolutly no where to hide, and sircle room with Raiden. Cyborgs were jumping from everywhere. How could one survive that without dodging?
Did it show him dodging any of those things?
Originally posted by Sam Z
Dodging one machinegun isn't a problem when you fights soldiers or gangmembers but NOT Big Boss. Besides beating those five guys isn't the most impressive big boss feat. If NW had to fight Volgin h2h he would've been a friedwing now. You think that NW is faster than Snake only because Snake don't have to jump like a little monkey to beat his opponents.
Nightwing would defeat Volgin hand to hand. Big Boss was perfectly able to. Volgin clearly wasn't a very capable fighter if a normal human could kill him. And you forget that Big Boss used guns in his fight against Volgin...Nightwing could beat him without, but give him guns and he'd put worse beatdown on Volgin then Big Boss could. He's hurt tougher beings, and is clearly faster and more agile then Volgin.
And Nightwing is faster then Snake because he has shown that he is faster. And Nightwing doesn't even need to use guns to defeat his enemies, unlike Snake. And his enemies are as tough, even tougher.
Originally posted by Sam Z
Almost every MGS character has superhuman reflexes. I'm not even talking about dodging now. Solidus, Raiden and even Olga were diflecting bullets with their blades.
Nightwing has showed superhuman reflexes too. No man in the real world can accomplish the same things that he does.
Originally posted by DarkCrawler
But Nightwing is still capable of the same dodging feats that he does. No dodging feat Fox has done indicates that Nightwing wouldn't be capable of the same. And of course Nightwing jumps aside in that pic, he needs to take out those people...
Capable of dodging, but not the same dodging. Batman also capable of almost the same dodging feats as Spider-man but it doesn't makes him as fast.
Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Did it show him dodging any of those things? [/B]
It all was during the gameplay.
Originally posted by DarkCrawler Nightwing would defeat Volgin hand to hand. Big Boss was perfectly able to. Volgin clearly wasn't a very capable fighter if a normal human could kill him. And you forget that Big Boss used guns in his fight against Volgin...Nightwing could beat him without, but give him guns and he'd put worse beatdown on Volgin then Big Boss could. He's hurt tougher beings, and is clearly faster and more agile then Volgin.[/B]
Snake fought him h2h only, because as you must remember bullets weren't effective against Volgin, they were bouncing from him. Besides there was Ocelot who was keeping an eye on Big Boss. NW can't beat Volgin h2h. Volgin is extremly trained, his body carries an electrical charge of ten million volts and he used it against Snake, as you can see from cutsence, NW is not durable enough to fight Volgin h2h. Volgin was breaking walls and steal doors with punches.
Originally posted by DarkCrawler
And Nightwing is faster then Snake because he has shown that he is faster. And Nightwing doesn't even need to use guns to defeat his enemies, unlike Snake. And his enemies are as tough, even tougher.
[/B]
NW didn't showed that he is faster than Snake since Snake is fast enough to keep up with such characters as Fox.
Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Nightwing has showed superhuman reflexes too. No man in the real world can accomplish the same things that he does. [/B]
This is also true about Snake.
Originally posted by Sam Z
Capable of dodging, but not the same dodging. Batman also capable of almost the same dodging feats as Spider-man but it doesn't makes him as fast.
Maybe not as fluidly, but still can do them.
Originally posted by Sam Z
It all was during the gameplay.
So no?
Originally posted by Sam Z
Snake fought him h2h only, because as you must remember bullets weren't effective against Volgin, they were bouncing from him. Besides there was Ocelot who was keeping an eye on Big Boss. NW can't beat Volgin h2h. Volgin is extremly trained, his body carries an electrical charge of ten million volts and he used it against Snake, as you can see from cutsence, NW is not durable enough to fight Volgin h2h. Volgin was breaking walls and steal doors with punches.
Nightwing can survive punches from the likes of Deathstroke, Blockbuster etc. He is every bit as durable then Big Boss. And he wouldn't even need durability. His superior speed is easily enough to avoid every hit from Volgin. And Volgin is extremely trained, but Nightwing is Batman's best pupil no training Volgin has can compare to that. He's better fighter (Volgin never showed exceptional fighting skills in the game).
Nightwing would own Volgin in h2h.
Originally posted by Sam Z
NW didn't showed that he is faster than Snake since Snake is fast enough to keep up with such characters as Fox.
So is Nightwing...
Originally posted by Sam Z
This is also true about Snake.
Yeah...
Originally posted by Sam ZThought you mean the first game's genome soldiers, my bad. And Nightwing would be able to take most of them. He's taken on super strong/fast guys before.
Those super strong and super fast cyberninjas weren't impressive but militia soldiers were? Easily? I doubt NW could defeat them at all.
Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Maybe not as fluidly, but still can do them.
Fluidly? He is just not a mach for Fox, not even close
Originally posted by DarkCrawler
So no? [/B]
I don't know since every single move of the gameplay couldn't be concidered canon. Personally I've been hit during that shotout for 10 times but what IS canon is that Snake went through all that without getting injured at all. So you assume he was killing dozens of soldiers before they even fired at him? There was no cover so the only logical explanation is - he dodged them. I'm not yet talking about dodging feats from cutscenes.
Originally posted by DarkCrawler Nightwing can survive punches from the likes of Deathstroke, Blockbuster etc. He is every bit as durable then Big Boss. And he wouldn't even need durability. His superior speed is easily enough to avoid every hit from Volgin. And Volgin is extremely trained, but Nightwing is Batman's best pupil no training Volgin has can compare to that. He's better fighter (Volgin never showed exceptional fighting skills in the game).Nightwing would own Volgin in h2h.[/B]
Volgin isn't as trained as NW but all his superpowers on pair with his training give him too obvious advantage. Deathstroke is an inhanced human and more of Cap's level of strength so taking his punches is not that impressive. Volgin was breaking though Shagohod's armor. And it's armor couldn't be even little damaged by RBG so Snake is still more durable. All NW's speed wouldn't give him too much advantage in fighting h2h with so powerfull foe in that small room. One electric blast or one punch would be enough to take him down.
Originally posted by DarkCrawler
So is Nightwing...[/B]
Still doesn't makes him faster than Snake. And I would like too see what NW is gonna do about Fox.
Originally posted by Sam Z
Fluidly? He is just not a mach for Fox, not even close
He's close. Every dodging feat Fox does can be duplicated by Nightwing (and pretty much has).
Originally posted by Sam Z
I don't know since every single move of the gameplay couldn't be concidered canon. Personally I've been hit during that shotout for 10 times but what IS canon is that Snake went through all that without getting injured at all. So you assume he was killing dozens of soldiers before they even fired at him? There was no cover so the only logical explanation is - he dodged them. I'm not yet talking about dodging feats from cutscenes.
But we really don't have any way of telling if that dodging was close to any of Nightwings...and I haven't seen any cutscene feats that show that he is even close...
Originally posted by Sam Z
Volgin isn't as trained as NW but all his superpowers on pair with his training give him too obvious advantage. Deathstroke is an inhanced human and more of Cap's level of strength so taking his punches is not that impressive. Volgin was breaking though Shagohod's armor. And it's armor couldn't be even little damaged by RBG so Snake is still more durable. All NW's speed wouldn't give him too much advantage in fighting h2h with so powerfull foe in that small room. One electric blast or one punch would be enough to take him down.
Deathstroke is stronger then a hundred men. He's above Cap. Deathstroke also isn't the only guy who has superstrength and has punched Nightwing...Wildebeest, for example, can do this:
http://img515.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wildebeest9aw.gif
Nightwing was able to survive his punches and hurt him:
http://img515.imageshack.us/my.php?image=year1987dodgeswildebeestsblows.gif
http://img523.imageshack.us/my.php?image=year1987fightswildebeest6ck.gif
And as for small spaces...hasn't stopped him before to dodge and put beatdown to someone:
http://img525.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fightsblockbuster47iy.gif
http://img521.imageshack.us/my.php?image=year1997dodgesbulletsfromladyv.gif
http://img473.imageshack.us/my.php?image=year1999dodgesbulletsfromentir.gif
http://img465.imageshack.us/my.php?image=year1999throwskgbeastlikenothi.gif
Volgin would get owned.
Originally posted by Sam Z
Still doesn't makes him faster than Snake. And I would like too see what NW is gonna do about Fox.
Dodge his sword (hell, its only one object moving with bullet velocity, he probably wouldn't have troubles with it). And then kick his ass. He's been trained by one of the best martial artists in the world, after all.
Come on, this is Nightwing, no contest. He is far faster than Snake could ever hope to be. Nightwing has pulled off plenty in the comics to prove that - as DarkCrawler has pointed out time and time again. Open your eyes for christs sake!
Nightwing can hang with the best of them, he takes this one, no problem.
Originally posted by DarkCrawler
He's close. Every dodging feat Fox does can be duplicated by Nightwing (and pretty much has)
Fox is a match for Spider-man in speed. He literally moved alomost as fast as the bullets he dodged. NW CAN'T do that.
Originally posted by DarkCrawler
But we really don't have any way of telling if that dodging was close to any of Nightwings...and I haven't seen any cutscene feats that show that he is even close...]
So you assume he got through dozens of armed soldiers in room with no place to hide and didn't get injured because luck?
Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Deathstroke is stronger then a hundred men. He's above Cap. Deathstroke also isn't the only guy who has superstrength and has punched Nightwing...Wildebeest, for example, can do this:
http://img515.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wildebeest9aw.gifNightwing was able to survive his punches and hurt him:
http://img515.imageshack.us/my.php?image=year1987dodgeswildebeestsblows.gif
http://img523.imageshack.us/my.php?image=year1987fightswildebeest6ck.gifAnd as for small spaces...hasn't stopped him before to dodge and put beatdown to someone:
http://img525.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fightsblockbuster47iy.gif
http://img521.imageshack.us/my.php?image=year1997dodgesbulletsfromladyv.gif
http://img473.imageshack.us/my.php?image=year1999dodgesbulletsfromentir.gif
http://img465.imageshack.us/my.php?image=year1999throwskgbeastlikenothi.gifVolgin would get owned.
I only see him taking one punch and the next thing i see he is lieing unconcious. Not more durable than Snake. I already seen this dodging feats, I still don't find them more impressive than anything Snake did(like riding missile😛), and ofcourse not at all more impressive than Fox speed.
He is still getting down in fight with Volgin, c'mone 10 million volts!
And if he ever had to fight The Boss he would lose too. She dodges bullets while running directly at them. Don't know how but still she does it.
Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Dodge his sword (hell, its only one object moving with bullet velocity, he probably wouldn't have troubles with it). And then kick his ass. He's been trained by one of the best martial artists in the world, after all.
Originally posted by Sam Z
Fox is a match for Spider-man in speed. He literally moved alomost as fast as the bullets he dodged. NW CAN'T do that.
No, but he sure as hell could dodge everything Fox dodged in those videos...
Originally posted by Sam Z
So you assume he got through dozens of armed soldiers in room with no place to hide and didn't get injured because luck?
No, but we don't know how much bullets were shoot at him, what angle, how he dodged them etc.
Originally posted by Sam Z
I only see him taking one punch and the next thing i see he is lieing unconcious. Not more durable than Snake. I already seen this dodging feats, I still don't find them more impressive than anything Snake did(like riding missile😛), and ofcourse not at all more impressive than Fox speed.
He is lying unconscious because a bomb exploded in his face, not a punch. And it's not the only beating he took and got out with no harm:
http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/5043/takingabeat6yy.gif
And he took that beating voluntarily.
Originally posted by Sam Z
He is still getting down in fight with Volgin, c'mone 10 million volts!
And if he ever had to fight The Boss he would lose too. She dodges bullets while running directly at them. Don't know how but still she does it.
Those million volts were not apparently enough to take out a highly trained soldier, so I doubt that they have anything against Nightwing. Maybe if he used the electricity with a bit more thinking. But Nightwing can do anything Big Boss can do, he can do some stuff even better. Volgin will lose.
Nothing that I have seen from the Boss implys that she could defeat Nightwing either.
Originally posted by Sam Z
Snake was also trained by one of the best martial artist in the world (Big Boss, who was trained by THE best martial artist in the world)
The Boss wasn't THE best martial artist in the world. Big Boss and The Boss are absolutely nothing compared to martial art knowledge of Batman. And you do NOT want me to compare their martial art feats with Batman. Because they would be curbstomped in such a many ways that we would need to invent a new number for it.
Originally posted by Sam Z
Doding bullets and dodging sword isn't the same. Spider-man dodges bullets easily but gets hit by characters like venom pretty often, so?
But nothing that I have seen from the sword implies that Nightwing could not dodge it. It wouldn't be the first sword he has dodged/catched in his hands...
Snake was able to dodge it, and like I have already showed, Nightwing's dodging feats >>> Snake's dodging feats.
