Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Except science doesn't explain how we got here. Evolution doesn't do that. It doesn't explain how something as complex as life came about in the first place.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And the Big Bang theory doesn't explain how the Universe is in such perfect order.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Or what there was before the Universe? Or what began the Big Bang?And where did that come from?
But more importantly, the models of the big bang do not require anything to be "before" the big bang because time was not a dimension until the expansion of the singularity. The question is nonsense, like trying to point at corners on a sphere.
(Actually I read a really interesting (layman's) explanation of exactly this issue where they show that time is basically a property of motion; "before the big bang" there were not things to move around so time wasn't a thing. It's on Lesswrong.com but I think dinosaur comics linked it recently. I'll find the link if you ask me to.)
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
When did Time start? How did time start? Time goes on for infinity doesn't it?
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So actually science doesn't explain much at all.Whilst belief in God makes most the answers to the above questions pretty simple.
The number of things that we can explain is constantly growing, which means the need to use God to answer those questions is constantly shrinking. If your faith is meaningful to you, don't force God into gaps in our understanding which will surely close at some point.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Nothing wrong with that, except Evolution hardly explains much. Evolution starts at the point when there are already alive and complex organisms around.
You are criticizing a baker for using things like flour instead of growing them from scratch, even though there's a perfect explanation of where the flour came from. (Again, this is fascinating stuff, like self-replicating molecules using mineral-lattices as enzymes. I'm happy to point you to some resources.)
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Ah but Miller and Urey began and designed the experiment. So who began and designed the Evolution of Life and of the Universe? 😛
Humans are good at imagining why someone would do something. We had to be to survive tribal life. One side affect is that we're also very good at imagining that everything is caused by a person, even if nobody was involved at all.
Ultimately, though, I'll reiterate my point about results. When it comes right down to it, I'm going to side with the worldview that is effective at modeling the real world. We know it's effective because we see companies making billions on the assumption that evolution is true. If it were false, the world would look much different from the way it does today.
Originally posted by Zampanó
But basically, any supernaturalistic argument attacking evolution based on the origin of the populations it works on misses its target in three ways: (1)Evolution being wrong does not "invalidate" the naturalistic worldview (2)The origin of life is not a component of the theory of Evolution, but rather of an entirely different scientific discipline (3)There is good evidence and a robust theory explaining the origin of life, so as a matter of fact there isn't any room to posit a supernatural origin of life.
Okkayyy, not quite sure why you quoted me on this, considering I never actually attacked evolution and to counter your 3 points:
1) I never claimed it did.
2) I never said it was.
3) This I have yet to hear. Since you've just claimed there's Good Evidence to it, Im sure you won't mind detailing some of that "good" evidence. Because you seem to be claiming the method in which life started has been proven.
Originally posted by ZampanóThese arguments apply to God as well; Where did God come from?
But more importantly, the models of the big bang do not require anything to be "before" the big bang because time was not a dimension until the expansion of the singularity. The question is nonsense, like trying to point at corners on a sphere.
These arguments don't apply to God. You seem to misunderstand what people mean by the concept of God. Here:
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
It's not a cop-out, it's what we believe.The fact is everything we know of in this Universe, has a beginning and an end. Everything depends on other things.
So it's not a cop out to believe the only way it could have all started is if there is a Source to the Universe that has no beginning or end, that exists outside of the laws of this Universe, from where everything came into play.
We call that Source- God.
Originally posted by Zampanó
(Actually I read a really interesting (layman's) explanation of exactly this issue where they show that time is basically a property of motion; "before the big bang" there were not things to move around so time wasn't a thing. It's on Lesswrong.com but I think dinosaur comics linked it recently. I'll find the link if you ask me to.)
Doesn't really convince me. What exactly does time have to do with motion. Motion of things is How "We" measure time passing. We'd have no way to measure time if nothing moved or changed.
It doesn't mean time has stopped. It still carrying on for how long there is no motion.. Get my point?
Originally posted by Zampanó
I'd be careful about rooting my belief in the temporary inability to explain something. There was a time when we couldn't explain thunder, and thus was born Thor.
You're making a lot of assumptions on where my beliefs root from. I would stop doing that if I were you. If you would like to ask me why I believe in what I do feel free to PM me but don't just make such huge assumptions.
I was just pointing out the Concept of God, and how Evolution does not explain how we are here.
Originally posted by Zampanó
The number of things that we can explain is constantly growing, which means the need to use God to answer those questions is constantly shrinking. If your faith is meaningful to you, don't force God into gaps in our understanding which will surely close at some point.
Whoaaa when did I force God into your gaps of knowledge. You've seriously jumped to huge conclusions about me and the points I was making, just because I've admitted to believing in God.
You need to chill out on this issue, and stop making so many assumptions about someone just because they mentioned God, and implied Science is a long long way from explaining everything.
Originally posted by Zampanó
You are criticizing a baker for using things like flour instead of growing them from scratch, even though there's a perfect explanation of where the flour came from. (Again, this is fascinating stuff, like self-replicating molecules using mineral-lattices as enzymes. I'm happy to point you to some resources.)I planted a seed in a garden. That doesn't mean no plants have ever grown without human intervention.
The seed came from a tree/plant itself. The baker was born from other people. The Flour also comes from wheat grains.
Everything we do know of comes from something. Is dependant on other things. The whole Universe operates like this and works in such perfect order. The Moon around the Earth, the Earth around the Sun, and how perfect the forces are holding them together.
I read somewhere that if the Earth was just a little off orbit it would spin out of control.
Is that not amazing to you. Amazing that we're all still here. Amazing that we came to be here in the first place. No I don't personally buy into the whole "it's all random" theory.
The Force between the Moon and the Earth does not seem Random to me at all.
Life and the Universe is far more complex than a car, or a space craft or a television. And yet you know when you see these things that they are not accidents. Because of their purposeful complex designs.
So forgive me for not just blindly accepting that everything in this Universe is completely random, and just happened simply because scientists say so, and you know they're so clever nowadays learning more and more every day.
Originally posted by Zampanó(A more damning indictment of morality found within the Old Testament, specifically, is that it endorses or dictates slavery in many different places, while our own sense of morality is disgusted by the idea of slavery at all.
Yeah we're so moral nowadays. We hate slavery. Probably because we don't need it. We have much smarter ways of enslaving the masses now.
I hate it when people act like we're all so moral nowadays in comparison to the past.
You have to read historic texts in context (just like we try to put all star wars fights in their contexts).
Im not 100% sure on the whole how the Old Testament addresse's slaves. So someone else would have to address that. But I know my Religion gave many rights to slaves, and encouraged freeing them. But at the same time it did not outright condemn the concept.
Any Religion that did that would have been damn foolish. What do you think all those slaves would have done? Claimed benefits?
Servants are still everywhere in Asia. They're not very different to slaves. But they get a home, food, and get to have families and yes even be happy.
Do you honestly think disallowing servants would do those people any favours? Most of them would become beggars on the street if that happened.
Beggars actually wait/hope for the opportunity to become servants!
Originally posted by Zampanó
Christopher Hitchens has a detailed examination of the Israelites treatment of the Caananites but I can't remember the details and refuse to get references for an online debate anymore.)
I'm not sure if his examination is from the Torah itself or historical texts. But assuming it's the latter, I hate it when people make parallels between an Ideology and the actions of it's supposed followers. Which Christopher Hitchens does all the damn time!
Just because Israelites did that does not mean God condoned what they were doing.
God didn't condone them worshipping a fake cow when Moses went away to collect the 10 commandments. So what makes you/Hitchens think their faith and God condones anything/everything they did??
And with all due respect how many wars and immoral acts have been committed in the causes of Capitalism, Marxism, Communism and even in the name of Democracy.
That doesn't mean the ideals of those ideologies were inherently bad.
Originally posted by Zampanó
Wonderful!Now all that's left is to learn to express our reasons for believing as we do without trying to force others to accept the same conclusion.
Suddenly, world peace.
This has always been my point about the preachy religious and the preachy anti-religious. As I've said repeatedly, I find both groups insufferable.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Okkayyy, not quite sure why you quoted me on this, considering I never actually attacked evolution and to counter your 3 points:1) I never claimed it did. yay
2) I never said it was. yay
3) This I have yet to hear. Since you've just claimed there's Good Evidence to it, Im sure you won't mind detailing some of that "good" evidence. Because you seem to be claiming the method in which life started has been proven.
[/b]
These arguments don't apply to God. You seem to misunderstand whatpeople[b]I mean by the concept of God. Here:
Doesn't really convince me. What exactly does time have to do with motion. Motion of things is How "We" measure time passing. We'd have no way to measure time if nothing moved or changed.
It doesn't mean time has stopped. It still carrying on for how long there is no motion.. Get my point?
From the essay I mentioned:
Ready for the next big simplification in physics?Here it is:
We don't need the t.
It's redundant.
You're making a lot of assumptions on where my beliefs root from. I would stop doing that if I were you. If you would like to ask me why I believe in what I do feel free to PM me but don't just make such huge assumptions.
In my experience, everyone thinks their beliefs are mostly unique. They are quick to point out how they differ from some major mode of thought. Many people are eager to talk about their positions. However, there are really not all that many different positions to take. Having argued online extensively, I've come to be able to predict fairly reliably what line of argument will be drawn up in response to any given rhetorical gambit. Certain lines from Dawkins often bring out the Cosmological argument, for example.
This degree of predictability has led me to conclude that while there are many flavors of each opinion, the substantive logic behind each platform is mostly constant (and therefore interchangable).
I was just pointing out the Concept of God, and how Evolution does not explain how we are here.
Whoaaa when did I force God into your gaps of knowledge. You've seriously jumped to huge conclusions about me and the points I was making, just because I've admitted to believing in God.You need to chill out on this issue, and stop making so many assumptions about someone just because they mentioned God, and implied Science is a long long way from explaining everything.
you:
So actually science doesn't explain much at all.Whilst belief in God makes most the answers to the above questions pretty simple.
[/b]
<snip>[goldilocks argument]</snip>Is that not amazing to you. Amazing that we're all still here. Amazing that we came to be here in the first place. No I don't personally buy into the whole "it's all random" theory.
The Force between the Moon and the Earth does not seem Random to me at all.
Life and the Universe is far more complex than a car, or a space craft or a television. And yet you know when you see these things that they are not accidents. Because of their purposeful complex designs.
So forgive me for not just blindly accepting that everything in this Universe is completely random, and just happened simply because scientists say so, and you know they're so clever nowadays learning more and more every day.
idgaf about this topic. It's easy to write volumes because science is fun but when the topic moves to reestablishing the concept of scientific epistemology (AGAIN) then I get very irate very quickly. Because it's simple and boring and the only way I will be entertained is by insulting the other person until they snap.
and i like you so lets not do that
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Just because Israelites did that does not mean God condoned what they were doing.God didn't condone them worshipping a fake cow when Moses went away to collect the 10 commandments. So what makes you/Hitchens think their faith and God condones anything/everything they did??
And with all due respect how many wars and immoral acts have been committed in the causes of Capitalism, Marxism, Communism and even in the name of Democracy.That doesn't mean the ideals of those ideologies were inherently bad.
You're equivocating and I don't want to talk to you about this anymore so even the "vaguely condescending and obliquely confrontational reply" is off the table. This issue is closed between the two of us.
DS if you get a rabbinical opinion on what I think I'm remembering as the "slaughter of the Caananites" then I'd love to hear the party line.
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Really? Perhaps we should look at the barbarianism of various cultures before monotheism came about? You're Monday Morning quarterbacking after thousands of years of data. And your point becomes moot when you realize how the entire German nation followed the insanity of one man and his genocidal campaign.
Marriage is about more than just love. If your partner doesn't 100% support and believe in your goals, morals and attitude towards life in general, then expect a shaky marriage.
The Christians and Muslims cancelled each other out.So you agree that religion is the cause of that?
I believe Stalin himself was responsible for more deaths than any religious outing put together.Stalin was evil and had access to immense resources. Hitler was Catholic but was he any better?
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I read somewhere that if the Earth was just a little off orbit it would spin out of control.Is that not amazing to you. Amazing that we're all still here. Amazing that we came to be here in the first place. No I don't personally buy into the whole "it's all random" theory.
Considering that theres about 6 sextillion planets in the visible universe and that we can only observe about 1/2,000,000 of the visible universe in any direction, its not that amazing.
The odds were on our sides.
Originally posted by Arhael
You keep referring to Hitler.
Are you saying that, if he was religious, he wouldn't do what he did? In fact how religious he was is still arguable.
So you agree that religion is the cause of that?
Neph:
Indeed. Plus he points out our orbit which is honestly not amazing at all considering the earth formed from the same swirling gases that the sun formed for.... I mean there are countless objects in orbit around solely our Sun clearly it's not that miraculous of an event.
Beefy:
I agree. Most "religious" wars seem to be about gold, land, or power and religion was used simply as a justification for the often unprovoked attacks.