[C-3PO]Here we go again[/C-3PO]
Originally posted by NephthysWell it's Star Wars. And the sequel to one of my favorite games. And I paid for the damn thing. I hold out hope that as my own personality changes IRL, that I'll start to see it differently. No luck so far.
Hurm. Why play a game so many times when you seem to despise it so much?
Originally posted by NephthysWhen I play RPGs I need to do everything story/character related. I have to talk to everybody and do every quest. The KotOR games are particularly story-driven, so skipping or ignoring a character as central as Kreia is out of the question. Unfortunately, she (and the other, to a lesser extent) bugs the hell out of me, so playing the game becomes like a chore.
Well ok, that's good. I guess the only problem is...... that she rubs you the wrong way. I mean, I never found her to be mean or derisive to anyone but Atton and I got a kick over seeing those two bicker so much. She's almost motherly towards the Exile and their interactions always play out as if she's your mentor. Nor did I ever find her to be that evil. She just has a unique set of morals and set of beliefs. She is strictly against evil, really she only ever advocates that you're intelligent and ruthless in using that intelligence.
Although if you don't like her, just don't talk to her or use her in your party. She only forcibly shows up a few times to give exposition and shizz.
Originally posted by NephthysI do care. I'm taking this opportunity to finely detail my ire with the game. Any relevant response after this, I'll point this way.
Well personally I see their sub-plot to be interesting in its own right. I never really cared that Mission or Canderous' or even Atton's subplots never meant much to the plot of the game.As for Kreia's motivation, I always felt that their fight was what that was building up to. Mira is right in front of the temple when Hanharr attacks, Kreia probably didn't want her following the Exile in and backing he up. But that's just speculation I guess.
I can summarize my peeve with the game's story in one sentiment: It doesn't feel focused. Look at the first game's, note how closely tied in the travails of the planets are with the travails of plot (the galaxy as a whole):
Ultimate theme/point - Republic and Jedi vs. Sith/good vs. evil.
Kashyyyk - Simple issue of slavery vs. freedom (good vs. evil).
Manaan - The issue of staying neutral in a war, while selling vital supplies to both sides.
Korriban - The training ground of Dark Jedi and acolytes for Malak's empire.
Simple. The point is to reach the Star Forge, kill Malak and decide what side you're on. The issues of the worlds reflect the theme and tie in with the plot, and the central character who has a stake in it all will affect the outcome of each. Now for KotOR II:
Ultimate theme/point - It's not Republic/Jedi vs. Sith. You can help the Republic and get attacked by the Jedi and Sith, but you don't exactly join/save/lead either of them. Hell, the Jedi functionally don't exist and the remnants you gather try to destroy you, and two of the central villains don't even associate as "Sith" (Nihilus and Traya). Is it good vs. evil? Maybe... but nothing overt. You never really get a sense that the plot is about that.
Nar Shadaa - Inquire about bounty, find Jedi.
Dantooine - Set up/dismantle local government, find Jedi.
Onderon - Protect/replace local government, find Jedi.
What was the Exile's stake in any of those, besides the Jedi Masters? I mean ultimately. Can you look back at the end of the game and see how the character should or would care about the choices made on each planet? Revan cared about Republic or Sith, so the choices he made would mater to him. Not so with the Exile, we're never given a sense that it affected her. Why focus on all that stuff when it doesn't seem matter in the end?
The Secondary PCs
I listed before why they're with you and what their stakes are. They're your friends and they share your plight. It's made explicitly clear that they care about the plot:
Bastila - loves you, the Jedi, and the Republic. Conflicted.
Carth - likes/suspicious of you and the Jedi, loves the Republic more.
Mission - likes you, would rather fight you than help the Sith.
Zaalbar - loves Mission, would rather break oath and kill you than hurt her.
Juhani - loves you, but would rather kill you than betray Republic/Jedi.
Jolee - intrigued by you, but would rather kill you than betray the Republic/Jedi.
Canderous - devoted you. The only one besides the droids to care only for you.
Most of them are in it for the Republic/Jedi--Revan's involvement is not their be-all-end-all reason for sticking around. They care more for the overarching theme of Good vs. Evil and the goal of stopping Malak, than they do about Revan. Now for KotOR II:
Kreia - worshiping you (would let the galaxy die for you)
Atton - following/loves you.
Mical - ditto.
Visas - ditto.
Bao-Dur - ditto.
Brianna - I barely remember her, but likely ditto.
G0-T0 - ditto (but at least he's selfish about it)
In a neat switch, only Canderous is in it for something other than you (IRC).
The 2PCs are in it for the Exile, the Exile is in it for whatever convenient answer the dialogue gives at the moment (revenge/answers/healing/apathy), the planet tribulations exist nearly unrelated to the galactic threat (the supposed main plot), and the galactic threat is in it for the Exile. The whole game is like some kind of warped Ouroboros. It goes in circles and leads nowhere meaningful. There is no main plot, or led story, it's just a jumble of various stories with a loose thread connecting them all, a dark atmosphere tone trying to create atmosphere, and cryptic philosophers with with raspy whisper-voices trying to convince us that it's all so deep.
I'm sorry, but no. It just doesn't work.
[Plinkett]Continued in part two[/Plinkett]
Part twoooo
Originally posted by NephthysI'll endeavor to next time. I have neglected the little guy.
Well at least talk/use to Hanharr next time you're evil. The guy is a fvcking beast in combat and you get a permanent boost of about +6 strength +4 constitution from maxing out his influence. Plus his story is very interesting imo.
Originally posted by NephthysYou know, I'd be okay if they went for a decentralized character structure. Make the game about numerous characters equally. But they didn't. It was all about the Exile, whom you build, speak for, and direct. I just don't want to know so much more than my character does and be unable to do anything about it. It annoys me. And if the game needs to do that because it can't adequately establish characters and story threads otherwise, then that is a failing on the game itself, and I shouldn't be required to make excuses for it.
But thats the whole point about the influence system. You [b]can question Atton about his odd behaviour, but he'll lie to you or brush it off. Yeah, even on Telos, if you make a skill check you can notice that for some random guy, it looked alot like he knows Echani martial arts. And he'll just laugh you off and bullshit about self-defense classes. You can question why Mandalore is dropping everything to travel with you and he'll also lie about it to you (partially). The point of showing you these things is to give you an indication that there actually is something to uncover. They intrigue you, make you want to ask these questions and make it more interesting when you can get them to spill the beans. Or make aware of what Kreia's doing and wonder about, or get nervous about it or whatever. It's called foreshadowing.And without it, the game would imo not work as well. If we don't have these hints that Attons more than he appears, then when he suddenly turns around and starts talking about torturing people. The player feels blindsided. Atton? There was nothing suggesting he was like that at all! WTF did that come from?! If not for seeing Kreia manipulate him, then Mandalore just showing up for no reason would seem pretty dumb. If we don't get hints that G0-T0 is up to something, then when he shows up at the end it doesn't make any sense.
And then, don't forget that these scenes are also for Kreia's benefit as well.[/B]
Originally posted by NephthysTelling me to get over an important inconsistency in KotOR II is like a Prequel apologist telling me to get over Sifo-Dyas in AotC.
Well you can't do anything about Kreia because of the Force Bond. Even if you tell her to fvck off (and you can iirc), she just points that out and you have no choice but to accept.But really? Ok. I can see why it would be irritating. But I can't see how it's this big of a deal. I'm sorry to be frank, but get over it.
But no, the Force Bond is a good MacGuffin. Just like G0-T0's bomb, you have to keep him around, or else. And the Exile would want to get rid of him, because he's shifty, untrustworthy, and unscrupulously evil. Just like Kreia.
So instead of showing the player that Kreia's scheming behind her back, have the Exile know as well. Show her listening in on Kreia's plans, or have one of the 2PCs slip up and spill the beans about it. That way it'll avoid the player becoming an Omniscient Spectator, and allow both us and our character to know the same things at the same time--giving us matching motivations and options. We confront Kreia, she does her word-play, but lets it be known she ain't going anywhere cuz of that lethal Bond. That direction would have worked great.
Originally posted by NephthysSee that post I earmarked. But to recap:
I prefer to space things out rather than making huge lists or blocks of text. That way, I don't have to scroll up to see what I'm replying to again and again. 🙁1. Yes, the Exile is an important part of the plot and yes it's way more of a personal story to do with the Exile than Kotor 1 was, but the Exile isn't [b]everything
about the story. As I've said, the characters have their own things going on. Kreia, Mandalore, G0-T0 and even the Disciple all have their own agenda's separate from the Exiles. Their plots don't revolve around the Exile. That's why I keep saying that theres more to the story than just the Exile. The story is not just about her, its also about these other characters as well. Most of the cast have their own sub-plots that happen concurrent to the main plot. The only difference with theirs and the cast of Kotor 1's is that they're not just personal side-quests, and a few of them are done without the Exiles knowledge.I think you're overstating how the characters treat you in Kotor II. The only three who get that into you are Visas with her creepy submissive thing, Kreia for her own reasons and love interest Brianna. Other than them, the game doesn't treat the Exile as that hot of a shit. You're only special because of a freak accident you had no real control over and because you're the last Jedi left. No-one follows you purely because you're Space Jesus, they all have their own reasons. Atton's stuck with you and then just becomes personally invested in the plot and you after a while, Bao-Dur follows you because he just can't move past Malachor, the Disciple is
Spoiler:, Brianna is dealing with her issues with the Force and working through her parent issues, G0-T0 sees you as the Republic's best shot at survival and of stopping the Sith, Visas is weirdly submissive and slightly crazy and Hanharr and Mandalore were blackmailed into it. And droids. Only Mira has no good reason to be following you (because she wants to collect your bounty?) and she is one of the least interesting character tbh.
spying on you for the RepublicAlso the Force Bond thing wasn't a cop-out, it was a deconstruction of RPG mechanics because that's how Avellone rolls.[/B]
Every character in KotOR II needs or wants the Exile in some way. And yet it's not all about the Exile?
Every character in KotOR I (excepting Canderous and the droids) is willing to betray/abandon/kill Revan if he stands in the way of their goal.
The Exile is the goal of every character in KotOR II.
Revan stands in the way of or assists in the acquiring of the goal in KotOR I.
Uh huh...
Originally posted by NephthysUnless you just didn't understand me when I said why I was okay with Malak's scenes, I have feeling you skimmed over my explanation. I'll paraphrase the key points:
2. Well tough. You'll accept the game cutting away to showcase Malak but you won't here? There's still plenty of character growth that the Exile deals with herself. Its only hints and small details that get revealed that way.
"Malak's scenes served only to further the plot... And unlike KotOR II, the Main Character and Friends aren't in a position to do anything (about Malak's machinations), one way or the other... Many of the cutaways in the KotOR II explicitly show to the player Kreia scheming and plotting behind the Exile's back... And they're [i]right there! On the ship! I can stop that "witch"right then and there... But I can't. Because my character doesn't know, so the option isn't available.[/i]"
KotOR I: Obvious scheming from obvious villain. Limited (if any) information revealed. Player knows, character doesn't. Can't do anything about it even if character did know, but the whole point of the game is that we're going to stop him eventually. So moot point.
KotOR II: Obvious scheming from obvious (yet trusted) villain. Damning information being revealed. Player knows, character doesn't. Can't do anything about yet though I could if my character knew because said villain is right there, and whole point of game is to stop said villain.
Who the f*ck thought that made sense?
Originally posted by NephthysSee above.
3. Which is? Do you think they shouldn't have been establsihed or do you not?4 + 5. Lame.
6. And we're always bound by limitations in video games. You can't fly off to Coruscant either, a limitation of your ability to affect the plot that no-one cares about because duh. Just like no-one (but you really) cares about reacting to things the Exile doesn't know because duh. You can only accept these limitations and. in this case, know that you were shown these scenes for a reason and that eventually something will come of it.
This is the part I don't understand. Were you not intrigued even a little to learn what Atton was hiding? Don't you think that knowing that the person closest to you is evil and not being able to do anything about is only heightens the tension? It feels like you're not giving the game a chance here. And it just confuses me.
And no, it diffuses the tension. No one treats her as a villain, she's allowed free reign. And no one seems to care about stopping her. She blackmails and threatens, and no one speaks up or does anything. She freaks people out, and no one does anything. The player knows she's a threat, but can't do anything because our character is in the dark. These people don't react normally to having someone so dangerous and threatening with them all time. And if they don't feel tense, why should I?
Cont'd in part three.
Part threeeeee
Originally posted by NephthysA.) Having an intelligent concept is not the same as having an intelligent delivery.
Now that was just an offensive and ignorant thing to say. God forbid we actually have intelligent story-telling in Star Wars. 🙄Well I'm sorry about that. I suppose that's just the risk you take when you go for an extreme tone; some people won't like it. Kotor II isn't as bleak as something like Dark Souls though. There are plenty of moments of levity or optimism. You want bleak, you play you some Souls.
B.) I'm sure the tone of Dark Souls worked well for that game. It didn't for this one.
Originally posted by NephthysSee that earmarked post. It's not an option for me personally.
Well then you've pretty much admitted that she doesn't suck as a character, you just get rubbed the wrong way by her. And they never fail in terms of Kreia, because even if she's not likeable (to most people, I love her), she's still a fascinating, well-written character as you've conceded. You don't [b]have to talk to her. You don't like her, just ignore her.[/B]
Originally posted by NephthysUmm... in every video you posted. The music, for starters. The dreary voice of Bao-Dur. The insufferable muttering of Visas. The very subject matter lacks all cheer or liveliness, and their voices do too. They sounds so... dead. Listen to the tone of this exchange:
Man, I just don't know what you're talking about. I see nothing wrong with the voice-acting nor do I see what you're saying. Sure, the characters sound dark when talking about dark stuff but other than that the characters sound fine. Maybe Visas is a bit too.... whatever in the way she speaks, but she is supposed to be broken and basically numbed.I mean, wheres all this one 'dark' tone:
They sound so much more lively, more active, more enthused. More real. And did you notice that it's not about Revan. Unlike Visas and Brianna, it's not an overly long cutaway involving the dynamic between two characters who are talking exclusively about you. And yet the tones of voice they use are meant to suggest "depth" and "intelligence"?
Or this one:
Hear the background noise? The xylophone notes at the beginning, the birds chirping? It's not overly cheery, but it's not depressing either. The second game is filled with low mood music, and the characters all reflect it. Limited variety in emotion. Unreal feeling people. Hear the shifting tones of voice as they aren't talking about you? Hear them discussing the main goal while still delivering a normal insight in to their feelings? Do we ever hear that in the sequel, even in a random stop-and-talks?
Originally posted by NephthysSee that earmarked post in Part 1.
Again, this isn't something we can really argue about because its a 'feeling'. I don't know why you didn't feel any urgency, but I can only tell you that there was plenty of motivation the game gives you. You're under attack from bounty-hunters and Sith from the word go which evolves into a threat against the entire Republic, into all life, into the Force itself. There really isn't a reason to not feel motivated to keep going imo.
Originally posted by Nephthys"Meant to".
It's meant to be the Exile's big moment where you confront your past in the Mando Wars and your current position with your crew (the Kreia vision). Its basically the culmination of the Exile's character growth throughout the plot, where you decide who the Exile is, signified by becoming a Sith Lord/Jedi Master when you're done.It also fleshed out Sion. I think the Jedi Master wasn't supposed to be dead though, and was supposed to be on the planet they had to cut for time.
That past you confront didn't happen to us. It's like telling us that Anakin and Obi-Wan are friends and that it means something, but it all happened before the game took place. You get to decide what happens in the past, but it still has no impact on us because we didn't play through it and experience it--yet they leave it open with many options and try to convince us that it matters. They tried the same thing with Anakin and Obi-Wan's "friendship in AotC, and look how much we all cared about that. And what was the significance of calling yourself a Jedi Master or Sith Lord? Would something happen with those choices that would have been different otherwise (game mechanics aside)?
KotOR 1 did it well. It was a fixed, unmalleable past that shaped the present, and the point is to leave it behind and create a new future. No dwelling, no unfeeling deliveries, no emotionless reactions to events we didn't see.
Originally posted by NephthysMore than "cool" I want significance. And none of the events on Nar Shadaa felt significant in any way. See my post in part 1.
But the assualt on G0-T0's yacht was a pretty great finale I felt, and I liked all the bounty-hunters and fighting through that poisonous bar was cool as hell.
Originally posted by NephthysYeah, I know what he is, I'm saying what he should have been. He was built up to huge heights by everyone including Kreia. If they're going to make him feel and appear so important and conclusive, then deliver it as such.
Disagree, Nihilus was ****ing awesome and everything, but I prefer Kriea as a final boss. She's much more interesting and is a much smarter villain than Nihilus. He's basically just a big powerful monster. It was pretty anti-climactic when the Arch-Demon was just a big dumb dragon you needed to hit with a sword in Dragon Age, I think just having a punch-up with Nihilus wouldn't have been as interesting as finally confronting Kreia.
Originally posted by NephthysI think you misread my sentiment there...
So do I, and I really love massacring everything in my way to the Throne room like some invincible juggernaut. Very satisfying imo.
Originally posted by NephthysSee my post in part 1.
Well that 'heal yourself' thing is only ever brought up by that Ithorian guy. I wouldn't really call it a part of the plot since no-one references it but him and you reconnect with the Force just by levelling up.As to the other stuff, imo theres only 2 main pot threads: Find the Jedi and Defeat the Sith. All the other stuff is incidental to this in that by finding the Jedi you get answers and recruit/kill them and you can usually only find them by solving the planets problems in either pro or anti Republic ways. It's very neat imo and I disagree that it has the effect you say it does. It isn't really any different from the quest structure of Kotor. Saving Telos and stopping Kreia only occus after these things are finished though, so theres not too much going on at these points to merit disjointedness.
Originally posted by NephthysIt does have promise. But it still fizzled in terms of impact on the main story.
Attacking him would also detonate the bomb.His sub-plot ties into the Republic sub-plot and is pretty interesting in its own right
Spoiler:
G0-T0 is the Czerka droid you're replacing at the start of the game, who went rogue after deciding that the Republic was unsavable by legal means. It's pretty compelling imo and I like how it ties into the very start of the game.The End?
EDIT: I had to quickly re-type part 1, so excuse the grammar mistakes.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
[C-3PO]Here we go again[/C-3PO]
This will probably be the last post I make on this. We've said all we can and we'll never agree on this. All that's left is to make our cases.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
When I play RPGs I need to do everything story/character related. I have to talk to everybody and do every quest. The KotOR games are particularly story-driven, so skipping or ignoring a character as central as Kreia is out of the question. Unfortunately, she (and the other, to a lesser extent) bugs the hell out of me, so playing the game becomes like a chore.
Well that's the problem. You're forcing yourself to spend a ton of time with a character that you loath. Of course that's going to really piss you off as you play and probably color the rest of the game to you.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I can summarize my peeve with the game's story in one sentiment: It doesn't [b]feel focused. Look at the first game's, note how closely tied in the travails of the planets are with the travails of plot (the galaxy as a whole):Ultimate theme/point - Republic and Jedi vs. Sith/good vs. evil.
Kashyyyk - Simple issue of slavery vs. freedom (good vs. evil).
Manaan - The issue of staying neutral in a war, while selling vital supplies to both sides.
Korriban - The training ground of Dark Jedi and acolytes for Malak's empire.Simple. The point is to reach the Star Forge, kill Malak and decide what side you're on. The issues of the worlds reflect the theme and tie in with the plot, and the central character who has a stake in it all will affect the outcome of each. Now for KotOR II:
Ultimate theme/point - It's not Republic/Jedi vs. Sith. You can help the Republic and get attacked by the Jedi and Sith, but you don't exactly join/save/lead either of them. Hell, the Jedi functionally don't exist and the remnants you gather try to destroy you, and two of the central villains don't even associate as "Sith" (Nihilus and Traya). Is it good vs. evil? Maybe... but nothing overt. You never really get a sense that the plot is about that.
Nar Shadaa - Inquire about bounty, find Jedi.
Dantooine - Set up/dismantle local government, find Jedi.
Onderon - Protect/replace local government, find Jedi.What was the Exile's stake in any of those, besides the Jedi Masters? I mean ultimately. Can you look back at the end of the game and see how the character should or would care about the choices made on each planet? Revan cared about Republic or Sith, so the choices he made would mater to him. Not so with the Exile, we're never given a sense that it affected her. Why focus on all that stuff when it doesn't seem matter in the end?[/b]
I'll rephrase this into how I see the plot of Kotor II.
Kotor II has numerous themes: The concept of being Wounded. Echoes, of how small things can ripple outwards to have huge consequences. Betrayals. Choice and Slavery. I'm probably missing a few, probably to do with the Republic and the Mandalorian Wars.
However, your ultimate goal or stake in the game is defeating the Sith Lords and choosing what you want the galaxy to be i.e. if you want to save the Republic or let it crumble and if you want to recreate the Jedi Order or Lead the Sith. So yeah, you can join both sides if you want. Everything you do is in service to these goals*.
Nar Shadaa: This is the one point where I will admit that the plot is weak, but only because of the unfinished nature of the game. Nar Shadaa is where you get the fuel Telos (which is really important to the Republic's rebuilding effort) needs to continue to function but the quest is bugged and doesn't work and not much emphasis is put on it, so as you say you don't feel like you're accomplishing anything. But I digress, the other goals on this planet are to stop the Exchange who are hunting you (which you should have a stake in, lol) and to find a Jedi.
Dantooine: Agree on this.
Onderon: Again, pretty much. Except you forgot about the Sith sub-plot where you take out that temple.
You really are ignoring the Exile's character and backstory here. Remember, the Exile defied the Council and went to war to save the Republic (or if you're evil, to kill people). The whole game is spent dealing with this fact. What happens to the Republic is of importance to the Exile's story and her character (again unless you're evil and spit on its ashes). And it all culminates on Korriban where you go into that cave and confront the choices you made in the past.
Also Revan never cared about the Republic in Kotor II. He was a blank character that you could give your own motivations to.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
[b]The Secondary PCsI listed before why they're with you and what their stakes are. They're your friends and they share your plight. It's made explicitly clear that they care about the plot:
Bastila - loves you, the Jedi, and the Republic. Conflicted.
Carth - likes/suspicious of you and the Jedi, loves the Republic more.
Mission - likes you, would rather fight you than help the Sith.
Zaalbar - loves Mission, would rather break oath and kill you than hurt her.
Juhani - loves you, but would rather kill you than betray Republic/Jedi.
Jolee - intrigued by you, but would rather kill you than betray the Republic/Jedi.
Canderous - devoted you. The only one besides the droids to care only for you.Most of them are in it for the Republic/Jedi--Revan's involvement is not their be-all-end-all reason for sticking around. They care more for the overarching theme of Good vs. Evil and the goal of stopping Malak, than they do about Revan. Now for KotOR II:
Kreia - worshiping you (would let the galaxy die for you)
Atton - following/loves you.
Mical - ditto.
Visas - ditto.
Bao-Dur - ditto.
Brianna - I barely remember her, but likely ditto.
G0-T0 - ditto (but at least he's selfish about it)
In a neat switch, only Canderous is in it for something other than you (IRC).The 2PCs are in it for the Exile, the Exile is in it for whatever convenient answer the dialogue gives at the moment (revenge/answers/healing/apathy), the planet tribulations exist nearly unrelated to the galactic threat (the supposed main plot), and the galactic threat is in it for the Exile. The whole game is like some kind of warped Ouroboros. It goes in circles and leads nowhere meaningful. There is no main plot, or led story, it's just a jumble of various stories with a loose thread connecting them all, a dark atmosphere tone trying to create atmosphere, and cryptic philosophers with with raspy whisper-voices trying to convince us that it's all so deep.
I'm sorry, but no. It just doesn't work.[/b]
Once again you are refusing to give the Kotor II cast any credit. Lets do this the actual way:
Kreia: Admires you for turning away from the Force, but is using you to destroy the people who wronged her (The Jedi, Nihilus and Sion) and ultimately seeks to use your unique status to destroy the Force.
Atton: Grows to like you, however we can't ignore the role his past has on him following you and how it leads into him embracing his Force sensitivity. Also is the strongest affected by your Force Bond ability. Romance.
Mical: Is spying on you to find the Jedi for the Republic. Also, romance option for morons.
Visas: Sees her life as being yours after you spare her, its mostly about her own issues with submission and what Nihilus did to her. Romance.
Bao-Dur: See the video on him I posted.
Brianna: Wants to explore the Force to be more like her mum. Traveling with you to spy on you for Atris but you kind of screw that pooch (literally, hehe). Romance.
G0-T0: See's you as the Republics only chance of survival, doesn't actually care about you at all and would happily kill you.
HK-47: Wants to kill the knock-off HK units.
T3-M4: Wants to take you back to Revan to help him.
So you see, you're wrong. Other than Visas, none of the other characters are just in it for the Exile. They all have their own reasons for traveling with you.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
You know, I'd be okay if they went for a decentralized character structure. Make the game about numerous characters equally. But they didn't. It was all about the Exile, whom you build, speak for, and direct. I just don't want to know so much more than my character does and be unable to do anything about it. It annoys me. And if the game needs to do that because it can't adequately establish characters and story threads otherwise, then that is a failing on the game itself, and I shouldn't be required to make excuses for it.
Uuuuurgh! No! It isn't all about the Exile. The Exile is just the main character! Of course most of the plot centers around the main character! That's just how plots work. And it isn't about all these characters equally, its about The Exile.... and her companions. She is the protagonist and as you've pointed out much of the plot deals with her unique abilities and how she's being used by Kreia to gather the Jedi and kill the Sith. That's fine, the protagonist should be an important character who ties into the plot in a meaningful way. But the other characters are important as well. Not just as companions whose story you reveal in dialogue like how companions are treated in Bioware games, but to the plot as well and in how they tie into the themes of the game. That's why the get treated as more important to the narrative than in Kotor I and given more focus and screentime, because they are more important.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Telling me to get over an important inconsistency in KotOR II is like a Prequel apologist telling me to get over Sifo-Dyas in AotC.
This isn't an important inconsistency. It's just something that 'bugs' you (your words).
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
But no, the Force Bond is a good MacGuffin. Just like G0-T0's bomb, you have to keep him around, or else. And the Exile would want to get rid of him, because he's shifty, untrustworthy, and unscrupulously evil. Just like Kreia.So instead of showing the player that Kreia's scheming behind her back, have the Exile know as well. Show her listening in on Kreia's plans, or have one of the 2PCs slip up and spill the beans about it. That way it'll avoid the player becoming an Omniscient Spectator, and allow both us and our character to know the same things at the same time--giving us matching motivations and options. We confront Kreia, she does her word-play, but lets it be known she ain't going anywhere cuz of that lethal Bond. That direction would have worked great.
The difference is that Kreia is not openly untrustworthy and evil like G0-T0 is. As you've been complaining about, all the stuff that points to that happens outside of the Exile's view. If Kreia was openly being evil and threatening people right in front of her, the Exile wouldn't trust or listen to a thing she says. Which would completely destroy the plot and all the interactions you have with Kreia throughout the game. All the interesting conversations you have with her would become ludicrous if you're lightside. It wouldn't work at all.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
See that post I earmarked. But to recap:Every character in KotOR II needs or wants the Exile in some way. And yet it's not all about the Exile?
Every character in KotOR I (excepting Canderous and the droids) is willing to betray/abandon/kill Revan if he stands in the way of their goal.
The Exile [b]is the goal
of every character in KotOR II.
Revan stands in the way of or assists in the acquiring of the goal in KotOR I.Uh huh...[/b]
I've shown you're completely wrong about all of this. The Exile is not the goal of every of the characters. Mostly she is simply a tool to get to their real goal (save the republic, become a Jedi, kill my enemies). Just like Revan, the Exile only ever assists in acquiring the characters goals.
And if you're hung up about the characters turning on you in Kotor 1, that was another thing cut for time from Kotor II.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Unless you just didn't understand me when I said why I was okay with Malak's scenes, I have feeling you skimmed over my explanation. I'll paraphrase the key points:"Malak's scenes served only to further the plot... And unlike KotOR II, the Main Character and Friends aren't in a position to do anything (about Malak's machinations), one way or the other... Many of the cutaways in the KotOR II explicitly show to the player Kreia scheming and plotting behind the Exile's back... And they're [i]right there! On the ship! I can stop that "witch"right then and there... But I can't. Because my character doesn't know, so the option isn't available.[/i]"
KotOR I: Obvious scheming from obvious villain. Limited (if any) information revealed. Player knows, character doesn't. Can't do anything about it even if character did know, but the whole point of the game is that we're going to stop him eventually. So moot point.
KotOR II: Obvious scheming from obvious (yet trusted) villain. Damning information being revealed. Player knows, character doesn't. Can't do anything about yet though I could if my character knew because said villain is [b]right there
, and whole point of game is to stop said villain.Who the f*ck thought that made sense? [/b]
You've gone off the point. We're talking about people sending assassins after you or planning to kill you only. Like when Nihilus sends Visas after you, or G0-T0 (actually just tells them not to attack you on Nar Shardaa).
Kreia never schemes against the Exile in the entire game, don't be ridiculous. What are you going to confront her over? She never actually acts against your interests until she backstabs you. She only ever blackmails people into helping you.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
And no, it diffuses the tension. No one treats her as a villain, she's allowed free reign. And no one seems to care about stopping her. She blackmails and threatens, and no one speaks up or does anything. She freaks people out, and no one does anything. The player knows she's a threat, but can't do anything because our character is in the dark. These people don't react normally to having someone so dangerous and threatening with them all time. And if they don't feel tense, why should I?
They do. Everyone fvcking hates Kreia and treats her like a villain. Its only because she blackmails everyone that she's given free reign. Of course no-one speaks up against her, thats the whole point of blackmail! Hell, did you know that some of them don't even know she's on the ship? Only after you turn Mical into a Jedi does he notice her presence and after he does she mindrapes him into compliance.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
A.) Having an intelligent concept is not the same as having an intelligent delivery.B.) I'm sure the tone of Dark Souls worked well for that game. It didn't for this one.
You put down the very idea of having an intelligent concept with that 'Star Wars isn't meant to be smart' bullshit.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
See that earmarked post. It's not an option for me personally.
Well its your own fault and doesn't mean the game 'sucks' or anything.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Umm... in every video you posted. The music, for starters. The dreary voice of Bao-Dur. The insufferable muttering of Visas. The very subject matter lacks all cheer or liveliness, and their voices do too. They sounds so... dead. Listen to the tone of this exchange:They sound so much more lively, more active, more enthused. More real. And did you notice that it's not about Revan. Unlike Visas and Brianna, it's not an overly long cutaway involving the dynamic between two characters who are talking exclusively about you. And yet the tones of voice they use are meant to suggest "depth" and "intelligence"?
Or this one:
Hear the background noise? The xylophone notes at the beginning, the birds chirping? It's not overly cheery, but it's not depressing either. The second game is filled with low mood music, and the characters all reflect it. Limited variety in emotion. Unreal feeling people. Hear the shifting tones of voice as they aren't talking about you? Hear them discussing the main goal while still delivering a normal insight in to their feelings? Do we ever hear that in the sequel, even in a random stop-and-talks?
No. I don't see what you're talking about or the difference in the voice acting. They don't sound dead at all.
Maybe we can get some others to weigh in here, because I'm not seeing what you're seeing at all.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
"Meant to".That past you confront didn't happen to us. It's like telling us that Anakin and Obi-Wan are friends and that it means something, but it all happened before the game took place. You get to decide what happens in the past, but it still has no impact on us because we didn't play through it and experience it--yet they leave it open with many options and try to convince us that it matters. They tried the same thing with Anakin and Obi-Wan's "friendship in AotC, and look how much we all cared about that. And what was the significance of calling yourself a Jedi Master or Sith Lord? Would something happen with those choices that would have been different otherwise (game mechanics aside)?
KotOR 1 did it well. It was a fixed, unmalleable past that shaped the present, and the point is to leave it behind and create a new future. No dwelling, no unfeeling deliveries, no emotionless reactions to events we didn't see.
Yes, 'meant to', because clearly you didn't get it at all.
It's called BACK-STORY. You know, that thing characters have? We don't get to experience it, but we get to experience its effects. Theres nothing different from here about the Exile's reasons to going to war or what happened there than there is hearing about Carth talk about his dead wife. Just because we don't see it doesn't make it unimportant or suddenly lack emotive value. It didn't work with Anakin and Obi-Wan's friendship because we didn't see any of it. We never saw them acting like friends or bought into their friendship. If we compare it to all we learn about Vader in the OT, for example, we can see that theres nothing wrong with having ****ing backstory that the audience never sees. We see Obi-Wan's regret, we see how far Vader has fallen. And in Kotor II, we see how much the Mando Wars have literally wounded the Exile. The cave on Korriban is there so the player can decide how the Exile ultimately deals with it. Whether you regret your actions, or decide yeah, you'd do it all over again. And that's good storytelling.
Meh, Kotor I did it ok, I guess. The closest it gets to confronting your past as Revan is something Mission says. It could have done so much more.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
More than "cool" I want significance. And none of the events on Nar Shadaa felt significant in any way. See my post in part 1.
Fair enough. You did accomplish quite a lot there still though imo. Took down 2 Exchange bosses and all.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Yeah, I know what he [b]is, I'm saying what he should have been. He was built up to huge heights by everyone including Kreia. If they're going to make him feel and appear so important and conclusive, then deliver it as such.[/b]
I agree. The fight with him was massively anticlimactic. But what are you gonna do, the game was rushed.
I think Nephtys got Lucien with thi post:
Once again you are refusing to give the Kotor II cast any credit. Lets do this the actual way:Kreia: Admires you for turning away from the Force, but is using you to destroy the people who wronged her (The Jedi, Nihilus and Sion) and ultimately seeks to use your unique status to destroy the Force.
Atton: Grows to like you, however we can't ignore the role his past has on him following you and how it leads into him embracing his Force sensitivity. Also is the strongest affected by your Force Bond ability. Romance.
Mical: Is spying on you to find the Jedi for the Republic. Also, romance option for morons.
Visas: Sees her life as being yours after you spare her, its mostly about her own issues with submission and what Nihilus did to her. Romance.
Bao-Dur: See the video on him I posted.
Brianna: Wants to explore the Force to be more like her mum. Traveling with you to spy on you for Atris but you kind of screw that pooch (literally, hehe). Romance.
G0-T0: See's you as the Republics only chance of survival, doesn't actually care about you at all and would happily kill you.
HK-47: Wants to kill the knock-off HK units.
T3-M4: Wants to take you back to Revan to help him.So you see, you're wrong. Other than Visas, none of the other characters are just in it for the Exile. They all have their own reasons for traveling with you.
I am personally still undecided when I look back at the game and read what people like Nephthys and Rookwood say about it I feel like I start to appreciate it a bit more, but when I am actually playing it I usually start to find it a little boring. Didnt get that problem with Bioware's other games.