Don't forget removing or redoing some older stuff too. It's much harder with past EU because it's tied into the rest so heavily, but things like The Sith Wars and Tales of the Jedi in general are incredibly condensed because of the limited comic book release they had to work under, and it doesn't jive well with later EU either, being half black magic, half archaic looking tech.
A complete redo would work wonders.
Originally posted by Stealth MooseShe was not explicitly un-swollen when she ran over to the Girdle though, which occurred directly afterwards.
You forget that Ungoliant overpowered Melkor after draining the Trees, and she was explicitly swollen.
One wonders how the webs that ensnared Tulkas also managed to be torn apart by Balrogs as well.
Tulkas' beard is sharper than any bladed weapon.
Melkor wasn't so much shielding her as he was obscuring her from the vision of others and shit, but really... Ungoliant overpowered and nearly ate Melkor. Apparently Melian's Girdle keeps out anything she doesn't want in it, save those more powerful than her.
Is Melian more powerful than Melkor? O:
Bear in mind that one of the themes of (a lot of fiction, but especially LotR) the Silmarillion is that Melkor's fall occurred partially because he was so determined to take ownership of the material world. His power-level is not a static number, but rather more like a cloud that slowly disperses into his armies and dragons and balrogs and mechanical dragons and werewolves and the continents themselves.
Melkor is more powerful than Morgoth at time t, who is more powerful than Morgoth at time t+1
Originally posted by NemeBro
She was not explicitly un-swollen when she ran over to the Girdle though, which occurred directly afterwards.
Doriath is hundreds of miles away. And unless Ungoliant can run hundreds of miles in minutes it would have taken her quite some time to get there.
Edit: But I guess she had just run thousands of miles with Melkor so meh...
Originally posted by psmith81992
LOTR is star wars, only good.
Very good. And far more cohesive overall, even with tons of revisions, and some of the work being put together post-humously.
Originally posted by NemeBro
Tulkas' beard is sharper than any bladed weapon.Melkor wasn't so much shielding her as he was obscuring her from the vision of others and shit, but really... Ungoliant overpowered and nearly ate Melkor. Apparently Melian's Girdle keeps out anything she doesn't want in it, save those more powerful than her.
Is Melian more powerful than Melkor? O:
Honestly, Melian's girdle seems to have some kind of unusual requirements for who can pass. It's not a static level of power. Beren passed because his "doom was greater than her power".
I found some decent arguments looking into the girdle:
"Willow Oran" makes some good points, such as:
[list]and among all [Lorien/Irmo's] people there were none more beautiful than Melian, nor more wise, nor more skilled in songs of enchantment.[/list]
And:
After digging through the most snooze worthy chapter of the Silmarillion (Of Beleriand and its Realms) and marking out the borders of Melian's Girdle on the accompanying map, I've discovered a decent argument for why Morgoth couldn't have swept in and overwhelmed Doriath's defenses!There were mountains in the way. A range full of nasty, haunted mountains and Ungoliant-spawn filled valleys which only Beren was ever desperate enough to cross bordered Doriath directly to the north. Incidentally, the only direct mention of border guards fighting things in defense of Doriath is Beleg and Turin battling on the north marches - guerilla warfare on monster spiders directly on the outer edge of the Girdle?
Every other part of Doriath is bordered by a realm of the Noldor, and even the Sons of Feanor never attacked it until after Thingol was dead and Melian departed.
To sum up: The Girdle of Melian was almost certainly a misdirection style magical defense capable of keeping out all lesser enemies such as giant spiders, orcs, and hostile elves/men/dwarves, though on the northern edge the monsters of Nan Dungotheb were close enough to justify the additional physical defenses.
Morgoth and Sauron probably could have challenged or overwhelmed Melian's power. However, while the Girdle was still in place, they were busy with those pesky Noldor, and even Morgoth knows to be wary of Ungoliant and spawn. By the time those distractions were dealt, Melian would have already departed and Doriath fallen to the second Kinslaying.
So mountains, spiders, aggressive Noldor, and timing have deprived us of the Melian vs. Sauron/Morgoth showdown.
Logically, I think I agree with you that Melian's enchantments would have had a hard time holding up against the full force of Morgoth's will had he attacked directly.
Yet from the Lay of Leithian Canto 2 we've got this bit:
[list]Quote:
In later days when Morgoth first,
fleeing the Gods, their bondage burst,
and on the mortal lands set feet,
and in the north his mighty seat
founded and fortified, and all
the newborn race of Men were thrall
unto his power, and Elf and Gnome
his slaves or wandered without home,
or scattered fastnesses walled with fear
upraised upon his borders drear,
and each one fell, yet reigned there still
in Doriath beyond his will
Thingol and deathless Melian,
whose magic yet no evil can
that cometh from without surpass.[/list]which rather indicates that Tolkien decided Melian's power level dramatically rather than logically...
Originally posted by ZampanóOnly Melkor only a little before when he was overpowered by Ungoliant was still described as "the mightiest being in Arda".
Bear in mind that one of the themes of (a lot of fiction, but especially LotR) the Silmarillion is that Melkor's fall occurred partially because he was so determined to take ownership of the material world. His power-level is not a static number, but rather more like a cloud that slowly disperses into his armies and dragons and balrogs and mechanical dragons and werewolves and the continents themselves.Melkor is more powerful than Morgoth at time t, who is more powerful than Morgoth at time t+1
Who knows? Maybe Melian was on holiday in the Void at the time.
Originally posted by ares834I have little doubt at all that Ungoliant could cover that much ground in a short time, personally, considering how other such sufficiently powerful beings, like Balrogs, can cover such distances in no time.
Doriath is hundreds of miles away. And unless Ungoliant can run hundreds of miles in minutes it would have taken her quite some time to get there.Edit: But I guess she had just run thousands of miles with Melkor so meh...
Originally posted by Petrus
So you guys prefer LotR to SW?
No. To me SW is a WAY more interesting setting. And the Force and lightsabers are a million times cooler than the generic fantasy stuff from LotR. Jedi > Rangers and Wizards, the Sith > Orcs, Force > Magic, Lightsabers > Swords, technology > medieval stuff, SW > LotR.
When it comes to LotR, I've read the Hobbit and the LotR books and seen the movies and I have absolutely no interest in seeing anything else from that universe. With SW I still want to explore more. I think theres still potential for great things from the franchise that keeps me invested. Theres a reason I'm here every day and I've barely ever been in the LotR forum.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Honestly, Melian's girdle seems to have some kind of unusual requirements for who can pass. It's not a static level of power. Beren passed because his "doom was greater than her power".I found some decent arguments looking into the girdle:
"Willow Oran" makes some good points, such as:
[list]and among all [Lorien/Irmo's] people there were none more beautiful than Melian, nor more wise, nor more skilled in songs of enchantment.[/list]
And:
[/B]
Only the Girdle is explicitly only capable of being broken by power exceeding Melian. Beren passed because of The Power of Fate, Carcaroth passed because he had a Silmaril.
As for mountains: Really? Even as Morgoth, when he was just sitting around in Angband, giving not ****s about anything, he could raise mountains and reshape them through the force of his will.
Morgoth probably didn't try to go through because he's a lazy coward.
Sauron?
He got beat up by Melian's half-Maia Mary Sue of a daughter, lol.
The Girdle explicitly kept Melian out.
Originally posted by NephthysThat's because you have terrible taste though.
No. To me SW is a WAY more interesting setting. And the Force and lightsabers are a million times cooler than the generic fantasy stuff from LotR. Jedi > Rangers and Wizards, the Sith > Orcs, Force > Magic, Lightsabers > Swords, technology > medieval stuff, SW > LotR.When it comes to LotR, I've read the Hobbit and the LotR books and seen the movies and I have absolutely no interest in seeing anything else from that universe. With SW I still want to explore more. I think theres still potential for great things from the franchise that keeps me invested. Theres a reason I'm here every day and I've barely ever been in the LotR forum.