The Exile, Darth Revan , Darth Malak vs ROTS Anakin, NJO luke, Yoda

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
No shit, replace hands with force and thats what he did.

And how do you purpose that happened. For you to be correct(which your not) Revan would not have retained the knowledge of their language, and neither would they have retained basic. Revan when he arrives on Lehon in KOTOR1 he understands what their saying without any use of the force and they understand him likewise. That CLEARLY shows that Revan did indeed rip the knowledge from their minds and shove basic in.

The problem with hyping up this feat is that the author doesn't make it clear why this feat is impressive. Look at it like this; condense the feat and all that was done was make two species, alien to each other, understand one another through the force (not through anything else).

Where is it made clear that this feat is unusual by its effects? We see several examples of force users communicating with sentient and non sentient life through the force, how is this event unique?

The descriptive is that Revan "ripped" out the knowledge of their language and then imparted the knowledge of basic within them.

A more concise descriptive would merely claim that he learnt their language, and they learnt his in turn through telepathy (which is an ability most if not all force users posses, in varying degrees). How is the feat by itself, indicative of Revan's power? I just don't get it.

And how is Jacen relevant to this again? Different circumstances different plot, why is Revan's success with this technique being looked at as some validation of Revan's expertise in the force? People should stop getting stuck up on these kind of issues e.g. the author may favour tragedy over a stereo - typical listless plot where the good guy wins with little qualms.

I don't know if Star Wars was ever meant to (or has) definitive power levels for force users.

The problem with hyping up this feat is that the author doesn't make it clear why this feat is impressive.

So in your world were all retarded and can't figure out for ourselves what is and isn't impressive, and we need an EU author to spoon feed it to us with a "This feat was the best feat ever!" Even though the feat took place in a "game" eliminating an author or narrator.

Look at it like this; condense the feat and all that was done was make two species, alien to each other, understand one another through the force (not through anything else).

No, its one person (who happened to be a Sith Lord) who wanted to communicate with a unwilling foe who had just tried to indiscriminately kill him, so he forced the knowledge out his head and forced basic in. You don't know the circumstances, your trying to over simplify the matter to fit your point despite probably not playing the game to begin with.

Where is it made clear that this feat is unusual by its effects?

Its not the effect or the feat its the magnitude.

We see several examples of force users communicating with sentient and non sentient life through the force, how is this event unique?

Except the Rakata are sentient life, and Kreia describes this feat in KOTOR 2 also as a form of domination, on Dxun she tells the Exile to impart her feelings and will on beasts thus she has control over them.

A more concise descriptive would merely claim that he learnt their language, and they learnt his in turn through telepathy (which is an ability most if not all force users posses, in varying degrees). How is the feat by itself, indicative of Revan's power? I just don't get it.

You don't get alot of things now do you...

And HOW do you purpose that happened. Did Revan go:

"Hey you guys that just tried to kill me for no reason and I just obliterated your pals uhh sit still while I f*ck around with your mind."

We are given clear descriptions from the Rakata people when the words "forced" are used it was a involuntary process. Especially considering the circumstances, DARTH Revan had just arrived on Lehon, he is immediately attacked by the Rakata warriors, he slaughters them, see's he can't understand them then rips their language and forces his in. They take him to The One, he repeats the cycle.

The main problem with your explanation (despite it not making sense) is it doesn't fit Revans character at the time, telepathy seems much too "nice" for Revan who had just overkilled them with a force storm, lied directly to both clans faces and was pretty much a full Sith.

And how is Jacen relevant to this again? Different circumstances different plot, why is Revan's success with this technique being looked at as some validation of Revan's expertise in the force?

The circumstances don't matter they were doing the same thing, Revan did it better and to an whole species and possibly to every member of any species he's ever come across (Hence is ability to speak and understand numerous alien languages) Thus Revan has greater control over his force powers then Jacen and in turn is stronger.

Not that this one feat alone is the total representation of Revan, as I've pointed out there are MANY others. Whether you choose to acknowledge them or not, I really don't give a shit, since you keep trying to take this ridicules: "Your fanatical, I'm unbiased" stance, which is in itself bull shit.

Jesus, Allankles. I can't stand Revan's character, but your opinions and arguments are backed by pure crap. I don't like the character (if you can call him that) and I've probably argued against Revan the most in particular, but Jesus - the guy is extremely powerful. You saying "I'm not undermining Revan" doesn't change the fact that you are.

Seriously Allankles, your anti Revan rhetoric has gone long enough.

Allankles no other character in star war has ever done a feat close to ripping a relatively unknown species language out of their minds and shoving in galactic basic into an entire species!

Galactic basic in an entire species huh?! Then explain to me what they were speaking in Kotor 1, because that sure wasn't basic. They understood Revan, Revan understood them what's the big deal?

And saying my opinion is crap is easy (the easiest thing you could say in opposition), lets discuss specific subjects. Writing "your whole opinion is crap doesn't quite cut it as far as substantial critiquing is concerned".

Revan is powerful? Wow! No one is disputing that, I'm arguing over the over hyping of certain feats, not whether Revan is powerful or not - thats a given for about every force sensitive protagonist these days.

Lastly, simply because I don't share your interpretations on some of Revan's so called great feats, doesn't mean my points don't have merit. We can't all be SW Legend, Styles and Darth.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
So in your world were all retarded and can't figure out for ourselves what is and isn't impressive, and we need an EU author to spoon feed it to us with a "This feat was the best feat ever!" Even though the feat took place in a "game" eliminating an author or narrator.

No, its one person (who happened to be a Sith Lord) who wanted to communicate with a unwilling foe who had just tried to indiscriminately kill him, so he forced the knowledge out his head and forced basic in. You don't know the circumstances, your trying to over simplify the matter to fit your point despite probably not playing the game to begin with.

Its not the effect or the feat its the magnitude.

You don't get alot of things now do you...

And [B]HOW do you purpose that happened. Did Revan go:

"Hey you guys that just tried to kill me for no reason and I just obliterated your pals uhh sit still while I f*ck around with your mind."

The main problem with your explanation (despite it not making sense) is it doesn't fit Revans character at the time, telepathy seems much too "nice" for Revan who had just overkilled them with a force storm, lied directly to both clans faces and was pretty much a full Sith.

The circumstances don't matter they were doing the same thing, Revan did it better and to an whole species and possibly to every member of any species he's ever come across (Hence is ability to speak and understand numerous alien languages) Thus Revan has greater control over his force powers then Jacen and in turn is stronger.

Not that this one feat alone is the total representation of Revan, as I've pointed out there are MANY others. Whether you choose to acknowledge them or not, I really don't give a shit, since you keep trying to take this ridicules: "Your fanatical, I'm unbiased" stance, which is in itself bull shit. [/B]

In planet not-insane-for-Revan, we call the process of communicating with another mind through mental psionic energies, telepathy. A telepath (a characteristic of many force sensitives) doesn't need any invitation to probe and generally screw up with another persons mind.

That very same process is made much easier when the victim has no psionic capabilities of their own and no knowledge on how to defend themselves from such violations.

In short your telling us that Revan the Sith Lord poked and prodded through the Rakata's minds and attained the knowledge of their language and passed his Basic to them through the very same pathway.

And no, Revan's success with the Rakata by itself doesn't indicate he's more powerful than Jacen.

Also, learn to read into a statement, there's nothing you've said I don't get, its just that your brand of Revan fanaticism is a little amusing to me.

If were such "Fanatical Revan lovers" then why do you even bother arguing? If were "fanatics" as you describe your not gong to change our opinions.

Galactic basic in an entire species huh?! Then explain to me what they were speaking in Kotor 1, because that sure wasn't basic. They understood Revan, Revan understood them what's the big deal?

You have no proof they couldn't speak basic. Remember the loading screen:

"Many beings in the Galaxy can speak and understand Galactic Basic but choose not to."

Lastly, simply because I don't share your interpretations on some of Revan's so called great feats, doesn't mean my points don't have merit.

No, you just grasp at straws and commit any Strawman you can in an attempt to discredit a Star Wars character. You call us "fanatics" and "fanboys" when you're the one CLEARLY obsessing over this issue. (if you weren't you would have stopped by know since your obviously not gonna convince us "fanatics"😉 Thus thats your points don't have merit.

In planet not-insane-for-Revan, we call the process of communicating with another mind through mental psionic energies, telepathy. A telepath (a characteristic of many force sensitives) doesn't need any invitation to probe and generally screw up with another persons mind.

Wow, someone is witty today!

No shit, its telepathy, thats entering someones mind, we've established this, we've also established your pretty slow. Revan takes it a step further when he proceeds to "rip" knowledge out and "force" knowledge in, just as Jacen attempted to do and just as Kreia did to Atton. The difference between what Jacen and Revan did is: Revan didn't kill his victims, neither did Kreia.

In short your telling us that Revan the Sith Lord poked and prodded through the Rakata's minds and attained the knowledge of their language and passed his Basic to them through the very same pathway.

Very Good! I'm so glad you could figure this out! I'm a bit disappointed though, it took you about 5 pages of debate, I know your dyslexic but come on man, try harder!

And no, Revan's success with the Rakata by itself doesn't indicate he's more powerful than Jacen.

In force mastery yes it does, since Revan proceeded to do it to multiple beings, and force sensitives, while Jacen failed to do it too one who wasn't a force sensitive

I thought we were having a back and forth debate over our interpretations of certain Revan feats, I wasn't aware it was called obsessing, nor that I was trying to change your opinion on Revan feats. Just providing a more balanced overview on some the feats i felt were being exaggerated in their interpretations.

To clarify:-

No, I'm not disputing that Revan is powerful or exceptionally powerful in his time (he's one of the Kotor elite afterall).

No, I don't have a bias against Revan. I don't particularly like him, but I don't habor any dislike for the character either.

No, I'm not trying to undermine Revan's feats just trying to offer a more clear definition on some of his feats that I've felt were getting distorted on here.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx

Very Good! I'm so glad you could figure this out! I'm a bit disappointed though, it took you about 5 pages of debate, I know your dyslexic but come on man, try harder!

In force mastery yes it does, since Revan proceeded to do it to multiple beings, and force sensitives, while Jacen failed to do it too one who wasn't a force sensitive

I'm glad we finally agreed that Revan used telepathy on the Rakata - you know... when he communicated to them through a telepathic pathway.

Ridiculous. Jacen's failure is not directly linked to his raw power in the force but by the mental state of the victim and/or the specific intentions of Jacen given the varying circumstances of the event.

I don't really care to change your opinion in this case but you can't jump to such conclusions without considering the variables (you've not shown any such considerations in your posts).

If your point is that Revan was more cautious and thereby able to affect his mind probe without harming the subject, then we agree. Otherwise I find it a laughable methodology for comparison of power.

Originally posted by Allankles
I'm glad we finally agreed that Revan used telepathy on the Rakata - you know... when he communicated to them through a telepathic pathway.

Ridiculous. Jacen's failure is not directly linked to his raw power in the force but by the mental state of the victim and/or the specific intentions of Jacen given the varying circumstances of the event.

I don't really care to change your opinion in this case but you can't jump to such conclusions without considering the variables (you've not shown any such considerations in your posts).

If your point is that Revan was more cautious and thereby able to affect his mind probe without harming the subject, then we agree. Otherwise I find it a laughable methodology for comparison of power. [/B]

I find your posts laughable.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Your inability to sense sarcasm is incredible. It's called dominate mind, you can't argue with facts.. You lose.

I recognized the sarcasm hence the reason I replied in kind. Your inability to correctly read statements is quite baffling.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy

His failure is linked to his force mastery, which at this point is below Revan's.

His failure is not linked to his raw force power, a point I might add you haven't disproved.

His control of his force powers may or may not be below Revan's level, but its difficult to say given the variables (which you've clearly not considered again).

Originally posted by Darth Sexy

There's nothing to consider in your anti Revan psychobabble.

I'm not asking you to consider anything in my arguments but rather the events by which you choose as markers for legitimate comparisons between characters (in this case Revan and Jacen).

Originally posted by Darth Sexy

I find your posts laughable.

I'm sure you do, not that your rebuttals aren't flimsy by themselves. Your fanaticism knows no reason (or very little if at all).

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
It's called dominate mind, you can't argue with facts..

And the process is essentially telepathy, call what you like but thats what it is in essence.

Again this is you grasping at straws, no shit its telepathy that is as previously said simply entering someone's mind, however Revan took it a step further when he proceeded to dominate their minds. This is what you don't seem to be getting.

Your attempting to simplify the feat by saying:

"Well its just telepathy! Erabody can do dat!"

When thats simply not the case, please show me where "average joe Jedi #45" mimics Jacen or Revan's feat to a success and I'll concede the point. What Revan did takes and extreme amount of control of ones force abilities to not destroy the mind like Jacen did. The only people who have done this or something remotely similar are: Kreia, Luke and Sidious.

And if you wanna compare mental states, lets look at this from the Rakata's perspective: Some guy falls out the sky, slaughters your comrades with lightning he can produce at will, coupled with the fact that this man has very little disregard to your life he proceeds to mess around in your head. Compare that to Veyl who knew what she was dealing with and that Jacen was trying NOT to kill her as he needed her information.

Jacen can't control his power to the extent Revan can, therefore Revan has a higher degree of force mastery then Jacen and thus is stronger. The Point.

You trying your hardest to simplify the terminology to make it seem unimpressive is completely irrelevant.

Originally posted by Allankles
We can't all be SW Legend, Styles and Darth.

Unless that was sarcasm, who in their right mind would even want to be a joke account like LeGenD? He's one of the worst debaters I've ever witnessed post here, on par with Numan, and Blak Fox.

Originally posted by Advent
Unless that was sarcasm, who in their right mind would even want to be a joke account like LeGenD? He's one of the worst debaters I've ever witnessed post here, on par with Numan, and Blak Fox.

Really! I don't care!

I admit that Star Wars is not one of my strong subjects.

And you are good but you have no manners. Staying civil is one of the points for good debating.

No, I'm a hell of a lot better than "good", ask anyone, or just read the thousand plus posts I've made. That aside, though, "staying civil", as you put it, is rather irrelevant to informal debates, such as these.

Obviously, if I insulted my opponent in an actual, formal debate, that was regulated - I'd probably be thrown out of the building the way I go about it. However, luckily for me, this is not the case here. On the internet, if you honestly believe the majority of people give a shit about manners, then you're clearly mistaken. Likewise, if you believe being a goody two-shoes is important, then you're wrong, as well.

And please, don't give me a lecture on what "good debating" is. "Good debating", by KMC's standards, is my expertise.

Now, now bragging at being "leet" in Star Wars is kinda lame...

No, its bragging about possessing enough logic and common sense to form cogent arguments. There's nothing wrong with that. Very few people can debate intelligently.

Don't worry Darth SexCrime, oneday you'll be among those very few people.