Originally posted by Allankles
Thank you, I've also appreciated your largely intelligent rebuttals. Your counterarguments demonstrated the reasoning of a very deep an analytical mind, I'm only sorry we didn't discuss the details of Drew K's discoveries on Revan's awesome TK.
Your stupidity has no limits.
Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxxSo what, from what we've seen Revan is the strongest. It would be a logical fallacy to say:
"Oh well he's not the best cause there must be someone better, simply cause I hate Revan."
Till we are given evidence otherwise Revan is the strongest. Thats how logical debating works
Till we are given evidence that he actually is the strongest, logic dictates that I reserve my comments on his place among the Kotor elites as far as raw power is concerned.
There's no need for evidence otherwise, as the evidence that exists doesn't definitively establish him as the most powerful (no does it do for the other candidates). Until you give me the comperative quotes on this issue and the feats to go along with those quotes, your argument for Revan isn't settled.
Merely stating that Revan is the most powerful given the lack of definitive evidence in light of the Kotor era as it is, doesn't make it so (funnily enough, you seem to think that it does).
Originally posted by Allankles
Till we are given evidence that he actually is the strongest, logic dictates that I reserve my comments on his place among the Kotor elites as far as raw power is concerned.
There's no need for evidence otherwise, as the evidence that exists doesn't definitively establish him as the most powerful (no does it do for the other candidates). Until you give me the comperative quotes on this issue and the feats to go along with those quotes, your argument for Revan isn't settled.
Merely stating that Revan is the most powerful given the lack of definitive evidence in light of the Kotor era as it is, doesn't make it so (funnily enough, you seem to think that it does). [/B]
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Drew K is >>>>>>>>>>>>>> then you. What he says is credible.Your stupidity has no limits.
Thank you, your powers of comprehension are equally outstanding. I mean, to think I was arguing for my credibility over Karshpynn on a completely fictional character about an unofficial remark, is absolutely ludicrous. What was I talking about again? Oh! 🙄 Drew K's in depth discourse on Revan's TK. 🙄
Get a clue SW Legend and try not to take fiction, fictional characters and discussions on fictional characters so seriously in the future.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
We ARE given evidence, you just choose to ignore it due to your anti revan rhetoric.Uh yes, the evidence DOES establish him as the most powerful. The argument IS settled.
Again, the evidence IS there, and you sound like noobaris arguing against it.
Of course there's evidence, but it's not definitive - I thought that's what I had been arguing the entire time?
And I'm not allfg, I'm me - Allankles.
It's easy to say that, but thus far into this thread all I've done is eliminate any exxaggerations made in describing Revan's feats and then gone further to put into perspective many others that I've felt were being given more importance than they warranted sighting context and the relevance of said events given their purpose in the plot.
Despite making clear my largely unbiased view and my dislike for exaggerations, you seem to think that all I want to do is discredit Revan. Given the crowd here, that would be impossible and an entirely fruitless venture.
You haven't disproved shit, you scream hyperbole at the quotes, thats HARDLY disproving an entire argument, you've yet to disprove Revan being the only KOTOR era Sith/Jedi mentioned with the Exar Kun the strongest being of the TOTJ era and Naga Sadow the apparent strongest of his.
You constantly contradict yourself:
"I don't want to make judgments on power."
"Kreia and Nihlius are better then Revan!"
Quite frankly your just like Nebaris.
You've yet to "disprove" Revans feats, and simply say "well they don't impress me." doesn't count.
You maintain this ridicules notion that your unbiased, when just a few posts ago you went on a rant on how shallow Revan is and how much better Kreia and Nihlius are.
You've lost, you keep posting despite not saying anything at all, run along now, come back when you can form a logical argument.
About what Revan did to the minds of the Rakatans, you're overhyping it beyond belief. You're acting as if Revan actually literally ripped their language out of minds, and shoved Basic into them. By your logic, a simple force stun, or mind trick requires some intense degree of force mastery, simply because you're affecting their mind. The Jacen example is 100% different. Jacen was actually torturing the mind of his prisoner, and the reason for her dying wasn't explained as a sign of incompetence on Jacen's part or anything, but on the weakness of her mind and the fact that Jacen was being careless. Not to mention the fact that saying that because Revan has Jacen beat on on aspect of power, he is therefor overall more powerful is 100% fallacious. But I can do it too you see, Sion's pain tolerance is greater than Revan's, ergo he's more powerful. See what's wrong with your logic?
]About what Revan did to the minds of the Rakatans, you're overhyping it beyond belief. You're acting as if Revan actually literally ripped their language out of minds, and shoved Basic into them.
Because he did...
By your logic, a simple force stun, or mind trick requires some intense degree of force mastery, simply because you're affecting their mind.
No, its not the same we've been over this Nebaris, persuasion is not the same as what Revan or Jacen did, persuasion would be a force user implanting an idea into a weak minded persons head and they follow the idea/command for a short amount of time, and even a strong minded non force user can resist it.
What Revan did was permanent, it can't be undone as seen with after 2 years of being out of contact with Revan the Rataka still know Basic and Revan still knows there language. What Revan did was take something by force which as repeated is not the same as persuading a being to do something.
The Jacen example is 100% different. Jacen was actually torturing the mind of his prisoner, and the reason for her dying wasn't explained as a sign of incompetence on Jacen's part or anything, but on the weakness of her mind and the fact that Jacen was being careless.
Is being careless not incompetent?
Its not 100% different, its the same thing regardless of the circumstance, He entered her mind, same as Revan, tried to retrieve information, like Revan but failed, unlike Revan. Revan took it a step further and forced basic into their minds.
And what reason did Jacen have to goof of and fool around in her mind? He was after specific information tried to enter her mind to attain it and killed her because he couldn't control the power.
Sion's pain tolerance is greater than Revan's, ergo he's more powerful. See what's wrong with your logic?
Except your analogy doesn't make any damn sense, Revan duplicating and over doing Jacens feat makes him stronger, Revan not having as high a pain tolerance as Sion, simply means he doesn't have as high a pain tolerance as Sion, which you can't prove, since we've never seen Revan lose an arm or leg your point is moot, how do we know Revan just wouldn't shrug it off?
By your logic ROTJ Luke is stronger then Mace Windu because he took Sidious force lightning longer.
And it's not like Sion doesn't feel pain he even states he's in constant agony, his will just allows him to keep going, if Revan was in the same shape as Sion he's likely be able to do the same.
And then your analogy again fails since Sion admits his inferiority to Revan.
Because he did...
That's not literally what he did. He didn't actually shove his hands in their brains and tear their language out of their minds. All he simply did was use the force to understand their language. Anyone who's not a Revan fan (and the funny thing is he's actually my third favorite character) can see that the feat isn't anything to wet your pants over.
No, its not the same we've been over this Nebaris, persuasion is not the same as what Revan or Jacen did, persuasion would be a force user implanting an idea into a weak minded persons head and they follow the idea/command for a short amount of time, and even a strong minded non force user can resist it.
Actually, in the original context you gave, it's exactly the same, and that is that you were going on about how much mastery of the force it requires to mess around with someone's brain. Now you're bringing in all this bs to save your point, and it's not working.
What Revan did was permanent, it can't be undone as seen with after 2 years of being out of contact with Revan the Rataka still know Basic and Revan still knows there language. What Revan did was take something by force which as repeated is not the same as persuading a being to do something.
Hold up, let me get this straight, you're saying that because a jedi mind trick is temporary, a comparison can't be made with what Revan did, as what he did was permanent, correct? Well then, by your logic, the same applies with what Jacen did (torturing the mind of someone) as that's not permanent either. Wow, that's self ownage at its finest.
Is being careless not incompetent?
Not in this context. Being careless says nothing in terms of lack of mastery of the force.
Its not 100% different, its the same thing regardless of the circumstance, He entered her mind, same as Revan, tried to retrieve information, like Revan but failed, unlike Revan. Revan took it a step further and forced basic into their minds.
There's not actually even any proof that Revan entered the Rakatan's minds, you do realise that, right? These Rakatans were primitive, they had no clue as to how the force worked, their descriptions should hardly be taken too literally. It's not like Revan was actually looking for specific information, he just had to learn their language. You make it sound like the key to learning their language was locked within their brain, which is rubbish. They don't have a Basic-Rakatani translator stored in their brain. What Jacen was after was specific information stored inside someone's memories. What Revan was after - the key to learning the Rakatani language, wasn't something which is stored in the brains/memories of the Rakatans. He most likely never even entered their brains, and just used the force to learn the language (don't ask how? This is KotOR, with force powers such as 'destroy droid'😉 once they had spoken. If you don't get this, I'll give you another analogy. Let's say one man can speak only English, and another can speak only French. Now let's say the English speaking man reads the French speaking man's mind. Does this give him the tools to learnt the man's language? No. In fact, reading the man's mind would be pretty much useless, as everything would be in a language he doesn't understand. This is the exact same thing here. The key to Revan learning the language of the Rakatans wasn't stored in their brains, so we have no reason to assume that what the Rakatans said was literally what happened.
And what reason did Jacen have to goof of and fool around in her mind? He was after specific information tried to enter her mind to attain it and killed her because he couldn't control the power.
As I said, he was careless, went too far with the torture, and overestimated how much his prisoner could take.
Except your analogy doesn't make any damn sense, Revan duplicating and over doing Jacens feat makes him stronger, Revan not having as high a pain tolerance as Sion, simply means he doesn't have as high a pain tolerance as Sion,
Same thing. You're confusing one aspect of power with overall power. Revan having more control over his powers/greater understanding of applying mental force powers in no way makes him overall stronger.
which you can't prove, since we've never seen Revan lose an arm or leg your point is moot, how do we know Revan just wouldn't shrug it off?
In Kotor, when you lose health, Revan shows clear signs of pain.
In fact, I'll give you a better example: Kyp Durron was able to manipulate black wholes with more ease than Luke, is he overall more powerful? No.
By your logic ROTJ Luke is stronger then Mace Windu because he took Sidious force lightning longer.
Actually, that would be your logic, which is what I've been pointing out to you.
And it's not like Sion doesn't feel pain he even states he's in constant agony, his will just allows him to keep going, if Revan was in the same shape as Sion he's likely be able to do the same.
Whatever, I provided a better analogy above. Here's another one: Mace Windu's shatterpoint is second to nobody in the PT. Does that make him overall stronger than Yoda?
And then your analogy again fails since Sion admits his inferiority to Revan.
While I may have got the pain thing wrong, this doesn't make the analogy invalid, but actually further reinforces the fact that more power in one ability doesn't necessarily equate to more overall power.
Oh and Sexy, it's nice to see that you're back to being AC's #1 cheerleader.
Originally posted by allfg
That's not literally what he did. He didn't actually shove his hands in their brains and tear their language out of their minds. All he simply did was use the force to understand their language. Anyone who's not a Revan fan (and the funny thing is he's actually my third favorite character) can see that the feat isn't anything to wet your pants over.
From Wookieepedia: The Dark Lord and his apprentice bested them easily, and though Revan could not understand the Rakatan language, such was his power by this point that he was able to rip it from their minds, driving Basic into their skulls in turn.
Revan's mind controlling and domination abilities were too strong. Revan never tried to understand Rakatan language. He ripped Basic in to the minds of Rakatans so that Rakatans could speak Basic and Revan could understand them.
Now you were saying?
Originally posted by allfg
Actually, in the original context you gave, it's exactly the same, and that is that you were going on about how much mastery of the force it requires to mess around with someone's brain. Now you're bringing in all this bs to save your point, and it's not working.
Originally posted by allfg
Hold up, let me get this straight, you're saying that because a jedi mind trick is temporary, a comparison can't be made with what Revan did, as what he did was permanent, correct? Well then, by your logic, the same applies with what Jacen did (torturing the mind of someone) as that's not permanent either. Wow, that's self ownage at its finest.
Originally posted by allfg
Not in this context. Being careless says nothing in terms of lack of mastery of the force.
Originally posted by allfg
There's not actually even any proof that Revan entered the Rakatan's minds, you do realise that, right?
Originally posted by allfg
These Rakatans were primitive, they had no clue as to how the force worked, their descriptions should hardly be taken too literally.
And they knew about the Force and called it "Strange Magics".
Originally posted by allfg
It's not like Revan was actually looking for specific information, he just had to learn their language. You make it sound like the key to learning their language was locked within their brain, which is rubbish.
Revan never even tried to learn their language. He shoved Basic in to the brains of Rakatans so that Rakatans could communicate with him in his language. This is called pure dominance.
Originally posted by allfg
They don't have a Basic-Rakatani translator stored in their brain.
Originally posted by allfg
What Jacen was after was specific information stored inside someone's memories.
Originally posted by allfg
What Revan was after - the key to learning the Rakatani language, wasn't something which is stored in the brains/memories of the Rakatans.
Originally posted by allfg
He most likely never even entered their brains, and just used the force to learn the language
Originally posted by allfg
(don't ask how? This is KotOR, with force powers such as 'destroy droid'😉 once they had spoken. If you don't get this, I'll give you another analogy. Let's say one man can speak only English, and another can speak only French. Now let's say the English speaking man reads the French speaking man's mind. Does this give him the tools to learnt the man's language? No. In fact, reading the man's mind would be pretty much useless, as everything would be in a language he doesn't understand. This is the exact same thing here. The key to Revan learning the language of the Rakatans wasn't stored in their brains, so we have no reason to assume that what the Rakatans said was literally what happened.
Originally posted by allfg
As I said, he was careless, went too far with the torture, and overestimated how much his prisoner could take.
Originally posted by allfg
Same thing. You're confusing one aspect of power with overall power. Revan having more control over his powers/greater understanding of applying mental force powers in no way makes him overall stronger.
Originally posted by allfg
In Kotor, when you lose health, Revan shows clear signs of pain.
Originally posted by allfg
In fact, I'll give you a better example: Kyp Durron was able to manipulate black wholes with more ease than Luke, is he overall more powerful? No.
Originally posted by allfg
Whatever, I provided a better analogy above. Here's another one: Mace Windu's shatterpoint is second to nobody in the PT. Does that make him overall stronger than Yoda?
Originally posted by allfg
While I may have got the pain thing wrong, this doesn't make the analogy invalid, but actually further reinforces the fact that more power in one ability doesn't necessarily equate to more overall power.
Originally posted by allfg
Oh and Sexy, it's nice to see that you're back to being AC's #1 cheerleader.
Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
You haven't disproved shit, you scream hyperbole at the quotes, thats HARDLY disproving an entire argument, you've yet to disprove Revan being the only KOTOR era Sith/Jedi mentioned with the Exar Kun the strongest being of the TOTJ era and Naga Sadow the apparent strongest of his.You constantly contradict yourself:
"I don't want to make judgments on power."
"Kreia and Nihlius are better then Revan!"
Quite frankly your just like Nebaris.
You've yet to "disprove" Revans feats, and simply say "well they don't impress me." doesn't count.
You maintain this ridicules notion that your unbiased, when just a few posts ago you went on a rant on how shallow Revan is and how much better Kreia and Nihlius are.
You've lost, you keep posting despite not saying anything at all, run along now, come back when you can form a logical argument.
What?! I thought you were capable of letting enough reason dictate the course of your arguments so as to prevent yourself from sounding like an absolutely narrow minded fanatic. It seems I was wrong.
Maybe I'm just in the wrong place here, but when you start frothing in the mouth (metaphorically speaking) over largely frivolous arguments, you usually take a step back to re-access your commitment to the argument. Take a breather.
I never said Kreia and Nihilus are better than Revan, and I never said Revan was shallow, but that he's Mando exploits were depicted in a very shallow fashion - that was just an example that was meant to merely elaborate on my point about the difference between an attribute allocation from a shallow backstory and a meaningful relevant feat or accomplishment.
If the authors crafting Revan lack enough creativity to make those accomplishments significant beyond what they are (above) then Revan the character suffers. Afterall, a character is only as good as the author.
]That's not literally what he did. He didn't actually shove his hands in their brains and tear their language out of their minds.
No shit, replace hands with force and thats what he did.
All he simply did was use the force to understand their language.
And how do you purpose that happened. For you to be correct(which your not) Revan would not have retained the knowledge of their language, and neither would they have retained basic. Revan when he arrives on Lehon in KOTOR1 he understands what their saying without any use of the force and they understand him likewise. That CLEARLY shows that Revan did indeed rip the knowledge from their minds and shove basic in.
Anyone who's not a Revan fan (and the funny thing is he's actually my third favorite character) can see that the feat isn't anything to wet your pants over.
Anyone with common sense can see your wrong.
Actually, in the original context you gave, it's exactly the same, and that is that you were going on about how much mastery of the force it requires to mess around with someone's brain. Now you're bringing in all this bs to save your point, and it's not working.
Because force persuasion and mind domination are NOT the same thing.
Well then, by your logic, the same applies with what Jacen did (torturing the mind of someone) as that's not permanent either. Wow, that's self ownage at its finest.
Force persuasion and mind domination are NOT the same thing.
Genius thinks he's made a point "how cute" Jacen locating specific information and trying to retrieve it IS what Revan did, only he failed, Jacen wasn't "torturing her mind" he beat her physically with the force, and tried to use a force technique that made her speak that failed then he tried to rip it from her mind and that caused an aneurysm in her mind and killed her.
Not in this context. Being careless says nothing in terms of lack of mastery of the force.
So your saying he COULD have done it? But he was too busy just havin fun messin around with information he needed...
There's not actually even any proof that Revan entered the Rakatan's minds, you do realise that, right? These Rakatans were primitive, they had no clue as to how the force worked, their descriptions should hardly be taken too literally.
As SWLegened said and the fact that he does it to the Elder Rataka who do know what the force is.
It's not like Revan was actually looking for specific information, he just had to learn their language. You make it sound like the key to learning their language was locked within their brain, which is rubbish. They don't have a Basic-Rakatani translator stored in their brain.
Wow someone sounds stupid, and where exactly would the knowledge of language be found? In their hearts? In humans the Broca's area and more specifically the pars opercularis controls speech and language, assuming the Rataka brains even work in remotely the same way (it seems so as they exhibit conscious thought, emotion, as well as high thought such as reason, and abstract thinking as well as mental instability) the force can be used to force knowledge into the pars opercularis and in turn rip information such as language out of it. And even if they don't have the same specific parts of the brain as we do the force can be used to find the parts that do control these functions.
As for your little translation crap, Revan being the genius that he is could probably be able to interpret the language in comparison to basic. This seems plausible as Revan can understand and speak many many alien languages.
What Jacen was after was specific information stored inside someone's memories. What Revan was after - the key to learning the Rakatani language, wasn't something which is stored in the brains/memories of the Rakatans.
Take a biology class or a human anatomy class, then come back.
He most likely never even entered their brains, and just used the force to learn the language (don't ask how? This is KotOR, with force powers such as 'destroy droid'😉 once they had spoken.
Don't use non canon gameplay to attempt to help your failing point.
If you don't get this, I'll give you another analogy. Let's say one man can speak only English, and another can speak only French. Now let's say the English speaking man reads the French speaking man's mind. Does this give him the tools to learnt the man's language? No. In fact, reading the man's mind would be pretty much useless, as everything would be in a language he doesn't understand. This is the exact same thing here. The key to Revan learning the language of the Rakatans wasn't stored in their brains, so we have no reason to assume that what the Rakatans said was literally what happened.
Again take a biology class genius.
Same thing. You're confusing one aspect of power with overall power. Revan having more control over his powers/greater understanding of applying mental force powers in no way makes him overall stronger.
In force mastery yes it does, the fact that he did this to an entire species without killing them attest to that. Revan can control the force better then Jacen thus making him stronger in it, combined with the quotes on his raw force power.
In Kotor, when you lose health, Revan shows clear signs of pain.
🙄
In fact, I'll give you a better example: Kyp Durron was able to manipulate black wholes with more ease than Luke, is he overall more powerful? No.
Did I say he was overall stronger then Jacen? No. I said "In the force" you analogy fails.
Whatever, I provided a better analogy above. Here's another one: Mace Windu's shatterpoint is second to nobody in the PT. Does that make him overall stronger than Yoda?
Again: Did I say he was overall stronger then Jacen? No. I said "In the force" you analogy fails.
While I may have got the pain thing wrong, this doesn't make the analogy invalid, but actually further reinforces the fact that more power in one ability doesn't necessarily equate to more overall power.
Again: Did I say he was overall stronger then Jacen? No. I said "In the force" you analogy fails.
Plus the sheer magnitude of Revans feat compared to Jacens really stress's how much more force mastery Revan had over Jacen.
No shit, replace hands with force and thats what he did.
Well it's just that seeing that you're taking what the Rakatans said as literally as you are, why stop there?
And how do you purpose that happened.
Right back at you. Please explain how exploring the minds and memories of Rakatans would help Revan learn their language. I'll reinforce my earlier analogy; let's say I have access to the memories of a French man, and let's say I don't understand a word of French, does than mean I'll be able to learn their language based purely on what's stored in their head?
For you to be correct(which your not) Revan would not have retained the knowledge of their language, and neither would they have retained basic. Revan when he arrives on Lehon in KOTOR1 he understands what their saying without any use of the force and they understand him likewise. That CLEARLY shows that Revan did indeed rip the knowledge from their minds and shove basic in.
I'm not seeing your logic, please explain yourself. Whether he actually ripped the knowledge out or simply used some kind of force learning technique, it would still remain inside Revan's memory, and his ability to recall such previous knowledge wouldn't be dependant on how he originally obtained said knowledge.
Anyone with common sense can see your wrong.
Dude, don't be ridiculous, you even said that you wouldn't view the feat as impressively as you do if you weren't a Revan fan, so it's pretty clear that bias is affecting your judgement.
Because force persuasion and mind domination are NOT the same thing.
Did you even read what I just said? Your original stance, which you constantly seem to be changing to save your losing argument, was that it requires some intense level of force mastery to affect another mentally. This bs doesn't change the fact that you're wrong, and that you're a living oxymoron.
I'll reply to the rest later, so don't reply until then, but you're dead wrong.