Rots Sids vs. Treya

Kavar dueled Malak to a near standstill. He was ultimately defeated by the Dark lord of the Sith.

Yes, this is true. Conceeded.

Malak led a squadron of Dark Jedi on Dantooine to attack Vrook and all the other Jedi masters.

All know is that a squadron of Sith troopers attacked Dantooine. Although they were (logically) headed by Dark Jedi it's unspecified whether Vrook himself actually fought any.

They stated that they were continually under attack by Sith assassins trained by Nihilus and Sion.

This is true, but did they ever find any of the trio's locations?

Kavar fought fought dark Jedi serving Nihilus on Onderon.

Yes, Kavar leader of the Jedi Guardians. No doubt he did.

They fought with the Republic against Revan. They lived during the period of Exar Kun and Ulic Qel Droma, ultimately taking part in the Jedi civil war of that period, where apprentice turned against Master.

Well, the only one looking old enough to live back then... Vrook. And even he would be a Padawan. Considering he was absent at every major battle and there weren't more than 20 Dark Jedi... I don't see how he could have fought many of them.

I'm still wondering where this "every day" stuff comes in. Kavar, maybe during the Jedi civil war because he was a hardass. I personally see him on par with Mace. But Vrook seemed like a coward "Consular" who really didn't do much and Kai didn't seem to hot.

Once more: The PT has been called the Golden Age of the Jedi...did you miss how the Jedi TRUSTED those clone troopers or how there were Order 66 survivors? Miss how these were caught off guard given how the Clones were their friends and had no malice?

Yoda has learned or formed defenses against all the attacks of the Dark Side, he is THE strongest Jedi ever until Luke, period. Sidious not having a clear victory out of the two strongest Jedi ever really isn't much a demerit.

anyone else notice how there was practically no dark Jedi FIGHTING WHATSOEVER in the Great Sith War?

[B]Once more: The PT has been called the Golden Age of the Jedi...did you miss how the Jedi TRUSTED those clone troopers or how there were Order 66 survivors? Miss how these were caught off guard given how the Clones were their friends and had no malice?

Which is precisely my point. If they were unable to see through such attacks, then they are not militaristic order, and thus are a stagnant order of Jedi that did not see war, and were neither assaulted by the darkside. Again Sidious defeating the three Jedi masters is not an impressive feat.

Yoda has learned or formed defenses against all the attacks of the Dark Side, he is THE strongest Jedi ever until Luke, period. Sidious not having a clear victory out of the two strongest Jedi ever really isn't much a demerit.

Assumptions, assumptions. Very fallacious. Learned a defence against a technique to which there is no defence? See how fallacy ridden your assumption is.

All know is that a squadron of Sith troopers attacked Dantooine. Although they were (logically) headed by Dark Jedi it's unspecified whether Vrook himself actually fought any.

Malak had legions of Dark Jedi. The Jedi were caught by surprise and had to fight there way through. Although the exact conditions are unknown, the most accurate assumption would be that they DID have to fight dark Jedi on there way of the planet.

This is true, but did they ever find any of the trio's locations?

Indeed, they stated "we are under attack against an enemy we have never seen before". Clearly, they had to do their fair share of fighting against Sith Assassins.

Yes, Kavar leader of the Jedi Guardians. No doubt he did.

Far more than the PT era JEdi

Well, the only one looking old enough to live back then... Vrook. And even he would be a Padawan. Considering he was absent at every major battle and there weren't more than 20 Dark Jedi... I don't see how he could have fought many of them.

Narrations in KOTOR would indicate otherwise. Jolee himself stated we could not believe how "utterly successful" Exar Kun was. "Throughout the order, apprentice turned against Master." Jolee himself was forced to defeat his wife, who turned to the darkside! The betrayal was widespread.

Vrook was chosen as the defacto leader of the Jedi council during the militaristic times. Clearly he was a warlord of sorts, and arguably the strongest of the trio, given that only he could resist Kreia's force onslaught.

Oh, yes, you so expect your loyal compatriots, nay, your FRIENDS, ordered and created for the Republic by your loyal and respected Jedi pal will suddenly up and shoot you in the back after perfect service for three years. Really, now. and those three Jedi Sidious killed? Described as three of the best swordsmen the Jedi order had ever produced.

Hm, amusing how that was Traya's quote and the Power of the Jedi said directly that about Yoda...see, there may've been no defense then, or traya was simply not talking about Force drain as she used it. So, if she was talking about force drain? She was wrong as since drain was invented, apparently it can be resisted or blocking can be developed. Blocking someone from the force? Kun resisted it.
And I'm trusting the sourcebook on Yoda's power more than you.

Oh, and kun had TWENTY FOLLOWERS, not counting Ulic...yes, that's great.

Malak had legions of Dark Jedi. The Jedi were caught by surprise and had to fight there way through. Although the exact conditions are unknown, the most accurate assumption would be that they DID have to fight dark Jedi on there way of the planet.

Not too sure about that one. Jedi like to avoid conflict at all time. Vrook was a sneaky one who could have escaped without harming a soul.

Indeed, they stated "we are under attack against an enemy we have never seen before". Clearly, they had to do their fair share of fighting against Sith Assassins.

I see. Who says this, BTW?

Far more than the PT era JEdi

Most of 'em, probably, but then there are people like Kenobi who fought against darksiders countless times. He fought Sith Lords five times... defeating them twice, losing to 'em twice and stalemating one once. He fought against Asajj nearly 6 times and he probably fought others in Dooku's circle during the Clone Wars. He also fought Grievous who fought better than most Dark Jedi as far as saber combat was concerned. Kenobi had a ton of experience dueling darksides and people like Mace (Who fought... Dooku and Depa during the CW) were above him.

Vrook was chosen as the defacto leader of the Jedi council during the militaristic times. Clearly he was a warlord of sorts, and arguably the strongest of the trio, given that only he could resist Kreia's force onslaught.

Wasn't that gameplay? All of them got knocked back. Sometimes I remember Kai was the one still standing.

Mace also took on Dark Sora, Asajj, among other countless evil beings in his early days...and Kar Vastor

And he sparred with Vos, I think.

Yeah, and Skorr fought a bit, too...

Plus, isn't constantly being riddled by wars constantly ripping your Order apart a bad thing?

A bunch of masters (Jeth, Vodo, and Ur) were brutally killed off 45 years prior, too.

Plus the twenty odd ones from the 'apprentice killing master' thing...Ood was gone, too.

Traya's force drain can be resisted, suppressed and blocked, but not by ROTS Sidious. I mean she was able to instantly kill Kavar who was very strong with both a saber and the force, Vrook who's willpower and force resistance were on par with Kavar's and Zez-Kai Ell who was able to remain undetected on the most dangerous planet for the jedi in the galaxy - Nar Shaddaa. Sidious could not even resist Yoda's force push, and we all know that Yoda's TK is hardly too impressive.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Once more: The PT has been called the Golden Age of the Jedi...did you miss how the Jedi TRUSTED those clone troopers or how there were Order 66 survivors? Miss how these were caught off guard given how the Clones were their friends and had no malice?

Yoda has learned or formed defenses against all the attacks of the Dark Side, he is THE strongest Jedi ever until Luke, period. Sidious not having a clear victory out of the two strongest Jedi ever really isn't much a demerit.

anyone else notice how there was practically no dark Jedi FIGHTING WHATSOEVER in the Great Sith War?

Firstly, don't rely on quotes.
Secondly, a golden age for jedi would be a time of peace and not war.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
[B]An attack none of them dreamed of...an attack that was unblockable by Traya's time...and wait, was Traya talking about her instakill when she said some techniques there existed no defense for? Was she even right? The two strongest Jedi of the godlen age to three who were most emphatically not? When there's no proof that this technique is infallible and unblockable?

You are again starting to assume things, Lightsnake.

First: She is talking about the "force drain" attack that Nihilus used against her on a "weaker" scale, that she used against the Jedi Masters and that Nihilus used to exterminate all live on a planet filled with force users.
Second: Nobody could have invented a defence against it because all users that learned the technique were killed and the "heart" of the knowledge of that technique - Malachor V - was destroyed.
Third: Traya who had studid this technique for years wasn't able to block it. None of the 3 Council Members was able to block it, and none of millions of force users, among them hundrets or thousands of trained Jedi Knights was able to block it when Nihilus used it against a planet.

Here's a defense: Yoda and Mace cover the distance to traya and behead her. Yoda blocks Traya from the Force. Yoda stops traya's heart with Morichro.

Oh yes...Yoda uses all kinds of techniques that he never used before - not even against Sidious, his worst opponent so far and then they close the distance between them and Traya before Traya is able to raise her hand and kill them.

Once more, there's a really skewed persepctive on Sith to Jedi in power here. And wait...there were Darksiders in the Great Sith War besides the...twenty knights in the Brotherhood of the Sith and the Krath? and the Ancient Sith aren't as strong on average as you make them out to be, and I forget, when was Nihilius using an 'instakill on her?' Palpatine was mroe than capable of that force drain, too, on global scales.

Or maybe you are the only person with a "skewed perspective" here ? The Ancient Sith aren't as strong on average as I make them out to be ? Excuse me. I am talking about their outstanding individuals - the same thing you do with the Jedi since you always site Yoda and Mace. Compare the average Jedi that had his ass handed to a battle droid to the average Sith Lord ? Wow...you might come to the conclusion that people who need a Jedi doing a suicide attack on them in order to get them killed (Ooroo VS Shar Dakhan) might be a little bit more impressive than Jedi Council Members of the "Golden Age of the Jedi" that had their ass handed to 3 or 4 Clone Troopers gunning them down.
You might also come to the conclusion that 4 Jedi that are fighting against a massive army of Sith beasts, some Sith (Lords ?) and a huge amount of illusions and somehow survive this action are more impressive than people who had their asses handed to a bunch of droids or clones.

And Nihilus used the force drain against Kreia - but he didn't drain her entire power as we see her being able to move her lightsaber a little bit. Sidious is capable of doing the same ? His DE version - yes. His 30 year younger ROTS version ? I don't think so. I didn't see him raising his hands and kill Fisto, Tiin, Kolar, Windu or Yoda with a single force attack.
Even if he could do it - the result would be 2 dead Sith and no winner.

For all we know, she was referring to the attack that blocked her to the Force, not the force drain, because we know that technique is blockable. And Nihilius is noticeably hardly even human, and Traya was being doubleteamed. We know at least six other people knew how to drain the Force...where'd it ever say Malachor was the only place one could elarn that technique? It'd been around a lot longer than KOTOR, Force Drain has been around since the time of Dark Empire.

What's your point? Yoda doesn't use them in movie, meaning he can't?

And these outstanding individuals...they're suddenly ranked higher than all the other Jedi? And the average Sith Lord was getting killed in the same type of sneak attack by Massassi that's rather comparable to the battle droids. And considering at least two Sith Lords died in the battle of Coruscant with NO Jedi casualties on that world...Ok, I misunderstood. My point was that the average Ancient Sith would in no way be better than an average Jedi. Ooroo's sacrifice took out a large portion of the Sith army, and the army was pretty much screwed when Kirrek's reinforcements arrived. Hell, Odan didn't even fight in the battle. And since we never see their outstanding individuals fight to a conclusion, let alone seeing one of their top two lords getting killed by a crashed ship...

And Sidious had already mastered many of the secrets of the dark Lords, as well as having access to Sith holocrons, and summoning up ancient spirits for power and knowledge.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
For all we know, she was referring to the attack that blocked her to the Force, not the force drain, because we know that technique is blockable.

She is blocked from the force and "basically" this is what happened to the Masters she attacked and the people on Katarr too - their "connection" to the force was completely removed and therefore they did die.

And Nihilius is noticeably hardly even human, and Traya was being doubleteamed.

Nihilus is "just a man" and nothing else - and he just waved his hand and left Traya there without any force powers left. Then she gets beaten up by Sion, yes, but what should she have done without force powers against a Sith Lord ?

We know at least six other people knew how to drain the Force...where'd it ever say Malachor was the only place one could elarn that technique? It'd been around a lot longer than KOTOR, Force Drain has been around since the time of Dark Empire.

Where did you see people dropping on the ground dead having their force connection removed or the force drained from them ? Traya perfoms this against the Sith Assassins on Malachor V and against the Jedi Masters on Dantooine. In the first case there isn't clearly any prior preperation or something of this sort. And she didn't even use a gesture. She walks in - they drop on the ground.

What's your point? Yoda doesn't use them in movie, meaning he can't?

He doesn't use them against his worse opponent, meaning that if he can use them he limits himself not to do so. And I don't see him changing his oppinion in the few seconds this fight might last if the ability is not blockable since there isn't any defence against it.

And these outstanding individuals...they're suddenly ranked higher than all the other Jedi? And the average Sith Lord was getting killed in the same type of sneak attack by Massassi that's rather comparable to the battle droids. And considering at least two Sith Lords died in the battle of Coruscant with NO Jedi casualties on that world...Ok, I misunderstood. My point was that the average Ancient Sith would in no way be better than an average Jedi. Ooroo's sacrifice took out a large portion of the Sith army, and the army was pretty much screwed when Kirrek's reinforcements arrived. Hell, Odan didn't even fight in the battle. And since we never see their outstanding individuals fight to a conclusion, let alone seeing one of their top two lords getting killed by a crashed ship...

Meh...he did witness Sadow's use of the "battle meditation" and the illusions. Didn't he ?
And you have no instance for comparing an "average Jedi" to an "average Sith Lord". You see Council members of the PT era getting gunned down by some clones. You really want to compare that to people who were assaulted by Massassi warrior - who do have "basic" dark side knowledge and powers to enchant their battle effectivity.

And your "average Jedi" doesn't have offensive force powers - much less knowledge to block them. I mean - Dooku floored Jedi Masters with blasts of his lightning rather easily. And since that is the case the "average Jedi" would lose to the "average Sith Lord" every day because the average Sith Lord does have offensive force powers which the average Jedi can't counter. Hell...it took "the most powerful enemy of darkness" to deflect a blast of Sith Lightning with his bare hands. We see that the second in command of the order couldn't do the same. A Sith will virtually destroy a Jedi in sheer force battle.

And now you can answer the following question: If the average Jedi will most likely lose to the average Sith - why won't the best Jedi lose to the most powerful Sith Lords. Especially when Sadow on his own outright fooled 6 Jedi of considerable power on two different planets using his powers and when the Sith have knowledge of far more "destructive" force powers then a simple use of force lightning ?

And Sidious had already mastered many of the secrets of the dark Lords, as well as having access to Sith holocrons, and summoning up ancient spirits for power and knowledge.

It's stated that Sidious gained tons of knowledge by plundering the Jedi Archieves past ROTS (Jedi knowledge + Sith knowledge from the Sith holocrons stored their). So saying that he was as powerful in ROTS - or even close - to his ROTJ or DE versions is an assumption which basically contradicts the source material and the things that can be seen in the movie or the EU sources talking about this time period.

basically? Obviously this technique can be used on varying levels.

Nihilius restricted her powers to some degree and left her to Sion apparently. But only Visas describes Ni as just a man...Traya says he's no longer human.

She could easily have been prepping it before she even walked in. But once again: That things have changed in the interim. Odan thought his blocking technique was infallible and the greatest power of the lightside.

Yoda does limit himself. However, during the fight with Sidious, apparently either thought using Force powers on one another would be a waste of time...and if it came to it, Yoda'd have his saber through Traya's head before she could blink.Hell, why didn't Malak use the drain on Revan? And offensive attacks are much different than using the force for defense, which is Yoda's preference.

The same Clones they fought with, befriended and trusted for three years and had no malice to be detected whatsoever? The Jedi of the KOTOR ages were getting killed by Atton, too. And Dooku floored Sora Bulq and Anakin...OBi-wan blocked his lightning effectively. And Dooku got that hit on Sora because he knocked his blade aside first....and Jedi don't use offensive force powers? Off the top of my head: Morichro, Malacia, force choke, Electric judgement, force push...

And, ok: One, because the Dark Side is weaker than the light and a true master of the Dark Side will always be weaker than a true master of the light, especially when illusions will mean NOTHING in a real fight. Aleema was a powerful illusionist, so were Luke, the Fallanasi, Volfe Karkko and Palpatine...and Volfe's illusions were tricking trained and true Jedi Masters, Aleema's were tricking Jedi of considerable power.
And Mace was y'know, noticeably unprepared as he just lost his hand to someone he trusted...and only the strongest of Jedi are capable of deflecting force lightning with their bare hands. Only THE strongest. And if the average Jedi will lose to the average Sith Lord, how did a beaten, dominated Order destroy a galaxy full of Sith or how did four knights repulse a battle force of Sith? How did Thon kill the female Sith? How'd revan kill Malak? How'd Hoth send Kaan packing? How'd Murtauugh kill the Dark Underlord, how were Kaox Krul and Rivan killed? Because Jedi master defense and they know how to fight Darksiders. Hell, we saw Yoda send Dooku packing. Yoda might not use the force as an assault besides the general attacks of morichro, malacia, or a force push, but he can sure as hell deflect whatever's thrown at him and outfight his opponents.

He gained a lot of knowledge then, but he already had plenty. Considering he'd been summoning the spirits of the ancients themselves, already had quite a few holocrons and had visited numerous dark side sites, as well as personally having retrieved Kun's personal trove on Yavin 4...and one of the credentials in Sidious's resume was being able to actually fight Yoda, given you have to be Yoda to even compete with Sidious. Hell, by the time Sidious was training Vergere, she knew he'd become the greatest force of destruction the galaxy had ever seen.

Just a thing, I thought the Exile was the reason Kreia could use the draining technique in the first place. Let's look at it. Kreia says that the technique cannot be taught, so she could not have learnt it in any way. Her dream was to be see the force die, and she saw that the Exile could do it, obviousley not herself. Now Kreia and the Exile shares a force bond, so she can probably use it through him. (It actually looks like the technique goes from Kreia to the Exile and then to the masters). Note that Kreia's speech before she used it was, "see it through the eyes of the Exile", then drained them from the force, putting them in the same state that the Exile is now... (But it killed them).

This is just a theory, but I don't think Kreia can use it whenever she wants....

Doesn't she use the same technique on Korriban when the Exile is pretty far away?

They were still connected though, right?