Originally posted by Lord Saboteur
Game mechanics, perhaps?
I knew someone was going to say that.
Game mechanics are hard to argue. After-all, in KotoR, a swing from a lightsaber is insufficient to remove a limb, like it is in the movies. This is why arguing for or against a game is difficult.
However, it's not an excuse.
Traya initially didn't want to kill the Exile, but was more than willing to defend herself and to strike him down once he attempted to stop her.
Originally posted by Escape81
I knew someone was going to say that.Game mechanics are hard to argue. After-all, in KotoR, a swing from a lightsaber is insufficient to remove a limb, like it is in the movies. This is why arguing for or against a game is difficult.
However, it's not an excuse.
Traya initially didn't want to kill the Exile, but was more than willing to defend herself and to strike him down once he attempted to stop her.
So she wanted to prove that she was better then Exile?
Originally posted by DE Luke
And how about you consider that you're a f*cking ing idiot ,Numan?Oh,that's right,your too stupid to consider anything.And how about you also consider that what you're saying is shit,CONSIDERING that it is.You and everyone else that supports your overbiased opinion in this thread have failed to point out how Traya's instakill WOULD kill Sidious besides rant about the same exact thing,which is full of shit.Atleast me,Lightsnake,Escape81 and kamikze have provided some sort of logic to this thread that has been eclipsed by your extreme stupidity,Numan.Honestly,Numan,no words in this world can describe how stupid and illogical you are.
"And how about you also consider that what you're saying is shit,CONSIDERING that it is."
Wow that is flawless logic there Luke. And I wasn't joining in in your little argument, I was just pointing out that quotes are not always valid.
Originally posted by ESB - 1138
So she wanted to prove that she was better then Exile?
I really don't think it was that, in my own opinion.
I think it was just that Traya wanted to continue her plans for the Force. She genuinely cared for the Exile, I think, but when he continued to interfere with her and her plans - she opted to fight him.
Not that she wanted to kill him, but that she felt that she had to.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
And Mace also fought...Uda-Khalid, Kar Vastor and numerous other throats. Proof those other Jedi 'routinely' fought Darksiders? Considering there were always numerous threats of dictators and Darksiders and Mace is one of the top duelists who ever lived, not only that: The PT JEdi were the strongest Jedi and Yoda is outright stated to have mastered pretty much every defensive force technique.
I could have sworn that this was "Sidious vs Traya" and not "Yoda and Mace vs Traya".
In case you didn't notice: All three Jedi that were instantly killed by Traya were not only Jedi Masters and Council Members - they did survive a war between Jedi and Sith and managed to survive Nihilus and Sion with his Sith Assassins hunting them.
And aside of this facts.
Kavar:
Was the greatest tactician of the Jedi in this times. The Mandalorians believed that Kavar was leading the Jedi - not Revan. Aside of this he went to duel Malak and possibly cut his jaw off - which is quite impressive even for a master of form VII and Jar'kai like him. And Kavar fought in both: The Great Sith War and the Jedi Civil war. I guess he has seen more "Dark Siders" then Mace and Yoda together.
Vrook:
And another Veteran of the Great Sith War and survivor of the Jedi Civil War. Seems to be quite the badass on his own when he is trapped in an energy cage without weapon, surrounded by 5 or 6 warriors and still has "everything under control". Not to mention that he managed to survive Malak's attack on Dantooine somehow.
Zez-Kai:
Possibly the weakest of the trio but still powerful enough to survive Nar Shaddaa for a considerable amount of time when this is basically one of the most dangerous places of the entire galaxy.
And Traya just came in and instakilled all off them.
So, blah blah blah, 'oh they lost a lot!'...no, they didn't. The Jedi possessed dozens to hundreds of Sith holocrons and artifacts kept carefully under control.
I wonder how that would help them to counter a technique against "which there is no defence" - when even Traya who did have an entire planet filled with Sith knowledge didn't know any defence against it...
So, yeah, the two strongest Jedi ever, both of whom have faced the darkness many times and come away stronger, one of whom is the strongest Jedi ever? Traya's owned
More likely: Traya simply kills them on the spot. In doesn't matter who she's facing - if there isn't any defence against the technique the opponent doesn't matter. At least Mace won't be able to counter it if he isn't even able to protect himself against Sidious lightning. Yoda ? Maybe he will pull something off - but again: If there is no defence against said "instakill" then there is simply no defence.
An attack none of them dreamed of...an attack that was unblockable by Traya's time...and wait, was Traya talking about her instakill when she said some techniques there existed no defense for? Was she even right? The two strongest Jedi of the godlen age to three who were most emphatically not? When there's no proof that this technique is infallible and unblockable?
Here's a defense: Yoda and Mace cover the distance to traya and behead her. Yoda blocks Traya from the Force. Yoda stops traya's heart with Morichro.
Once more, there's a really skewed persepctive on Sith to Jedi in power here. And wait...there were Darksiders in the Great Sith War besides the...twenty knights in the Brotherhood of the Sith and the Krath? and the Ancient Sith aren't as strong on average as you make them out to be, and I forget, when was Nihilius using an 'instakill on her?' Palpatine was mroe than capable of that force drain, too, on global scales.
Originally posted by Borbarad
I could have sworn that this was "Sidious vs Traya" and not "Yoda and Mace vs Traya".
In case you didn't notice: All three Jedi that were instantly killed by Traya were not only Jedi Masters and Council Members - they did survive a war between Jedi and Sith and managed to survive Nihilus and Sion with his Sith Assassins hunting them.And aside of this facts.
Kavar:
Was the greatest tactician of the Jedi in this times. The Mandalorians believed that Kavar was leading the Jedi - not Revan. Aside of this he went to duel Malak and possibly cut his jaw off - which is quite impressive even for a master of form VII and Jar'kai like him. And Kavar fought in both: The Great Sith War and the Jedi Civil war. I guess he has seen more "Dark Siders" then Mace and Yoda together.Vrook:
And another Veteran of the Great Sith War and survivor of the Jedi Civil War. Seems to be quite the badass on his own when he is trapped in an energy cage without weapon, surrounded by 5 or 6 warriors and still has "everything under control". Not to mention that he managed to survive Malak's attack on Dantooine somehow.Zez-Kai:
Possibly the weakest of the trio but still powerful enough to survive Nar Shaddaa for a considerable amount of time when this is basically one of the most dangerous places of the entire galaxy.And Traya just came in and instakilled all off them.
I wonder how that would help them to counter a technique against "which there is no defence" - when even Traya who did have an entire planet filled with Sith knowledge didn't know any defence against it...
More likely: Traya simply kills them on the spot. In doesn't matter who she's facing - if there isn't any defence against the technique the opponent doesn't matter. At least Mace won't be able to counter it if he isn't even able to protect himself against Sidious lightning. Yoda ? Maybe he will pull something off - but again: If there is no defence against said "instakill" then there is simply no defence.
Yeah but Palpatine killed 3 Jedi Council Members very easily. And if anyone could defend against it would be Anakin Skywalker. He was thought to harness the living force around him to stand against the Dark Reaper which basically does the same thing. Drains living beings of the Force thus killing them.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
An attack none of them dreamed of...an attack that was unblockable by Traya's time...and wait, was Traya talking about her instakill when she said some techniques there existed no defense for? Was she even right? The two strongest Jedi of the godlen age to three who were most emphatically not? When there's no proof that this technique is infallible and unblockable?Here's a defense: Yoda and Mace cover the distance to traya and behead her. Yoda blocks Traya from the Force. Yoda stops traya's heart with Morichro.
Once more, there's a really skewed persepctive on Sith to Jedi in power here. And wait...there were Darksiders in the Great Sith War besides the...twenty knights in the Brotherhood of the Sith and the Krath? and the Ancient Sith aren't as strong on average as you make them out to be, and I forget, when was Nihilius using an 'instakill on her?' Palpatine was mroe than capable of that force drain, too, on global scales.
1. THere is proof and she stated it in game. It is a technique to which there is no defence. The technique used by Nihilus is the exact same as Traya since it drains the force from the person and destroys it. She desrcibes it as such, and it is even described as such when she kills the trio of Jedi masters. Each of these masters could pwn the three that Sidious destroyed. I am sorry, again being shot down by clone troopers is not looking good on their resume. The KOTOR masters have proven themselves to be easily their superiour YET they were all instant killed.
2. How do you assume that Mace can cover the distance. If anything, Traya would force wave both of them. Afterwards she would instantkill them both.
Originally posted by zephiel7
1. THere is proof and she stated it in game. It is a technique to which there is no defence. The technique used by Nihilus is the exact same as Traya since it drains the force from the person and destroys it. She desrcibes it as such, and it is even described as such when she kills the trio of Jedi masters. Each of these masters could pwn the three that Sidious destroyed. I am sorry, again being shot down by clone troopers is not looking good on their resume. The KOTOR masters have proven themselves to be easily their superiour YET they were all instant killed.2. How do you assume that Mace can cover the distance. If anything, Traya would force wave both of them. Afterwards she would instantkill them both.
1.) [this isn't aimed at you zephiel7] What does Yoda and Mace have to do with a fight between Traya and Palpatine?
2.) No defense? See my above post for proof on defense.
Yeah but Palpatine killed 3 Jedi Council Members very easily.
Three Jedi masters? The masters of PT were a non issue. They were gunned down by a bunch of clone troopers. They were a stagnating order of INEFFECTIVE Jedi. Kavar, Vrook, and Zez Kai battled the darkside every day. They survived Malak's attack on Dantooine, and withstood the assault by Nihilus and Sion. They are clearly much better trained in the force, and more adept at fending off the darkside. Traya's killing these three is clearly a much greater feat.
And if anyone could defend against it would be Anakin Skywalker. He was thought to harness the living force around him to stand against the Dark Reaper which basically does the same thing. Drains living beings of the Force thus killing them. [/B]
The Dark reaper does not drain the force from its opponents.
"The Reaper had 2 weapons: four miniguns and a laser beam. It also had so-called harvester bays that fired energy orbs at enemies. When an orb got close, it exploded, causing heavy damage. "
Very different from the technique employed by Nihilus which rips the force from its opponent and feeds upon it. Anakin would not stand a chance. Only the Exile, which was a hole in the force, could stand against Nihilus. He was a wound in the force, that Nihilus could not feed from.
1.) [this isn't aimed at you zephiel7] What does Yoda and Mace have to do with a fight between Traya and Palpatine?
The point is Sidious did not come out with a clear victory against any of these figures. How could he hope to defeat Traya? The answer is he cannot.
Three Jedi masters? The masters of PT were a non issue. They were gunned down by a bunch of clone troopers. They were a stagnating order of INEFFECTIVE Jedi. Kavar, Vrook, and Zez Kai battled the darkside every day. They survived Malak's attack on Dantooine, and withstood the assault by Nihilus and Sion. They are clearly much better trained in the force, and more adept at fending off the darkside. Traya's killing these three is clearly a much greater feat.
Well, the Clones got them by surprise. I'd also like to comment on the fact that these three each did fight Dark Siders (Kolar fought Vos, Fisto fought Asajj and Tiin... meh). They were also heroes of the Clone Wars. These guys were pretty tough. But like I said before, you can't heavily outweigh one Order to another. Kiling three Jedi Council members, whether it be from PT times or KotOR times, is still an impressive feat.
Originally posted by zephiel7
Three Jedi masters? The masters of PT were a non issue. They were gunned down by a bunch of clone troopers. They were a stagnating order of INEFFECTIVE Jedi. Kavar, Vrook, and Zez Kai battled the darkside every day. They survived Malak's attack on Dantooine, and withstood the assault by Nihilus and Sion. They are clearly much better trained in the force, and more adept at fending off the darkside. Traya's killing these three is clearly a much greater feat.The Dark reaper does not drain the force from its opponents.
[b]"The Reaper had 2 weapons: four miniguns and a laser beam. It also had so-called harvester bays that fired energy orbs at enemies. When an orb got close, it exploded, causing heavy damage. "
Very different from the technique employed by Nihilus which rips the force from its opponent and feeds upon it. Anakin would not stand a chance. Only the Exile, which was a hole in the force, could stand against Nihilus. He was a wound in the force, that Nihilus could not feed from.
The point is Sidious did not come out with a clear victory against any of these figures. How could he hope to defeat Traya? The answer is he cannot. [/B]
No. The Dark Reaper (quote from Mace Windu) drained the very Force from living beings. Not the exact quote. Anakin had to learn to harness the Force to get close to the Dark Reaper. Anakin said him "Don't bother master. Anyone who gets close to the Dark Reaper will be instantly killed. I'm the only one who can stop it."
Originally posted by ESB - 1138
No. The Dark Reaper (quote from Mace Windu) drained the very Force from living beings. Not the exact quote. Anakin had to learn to harness the Force to get close to the Dark Reaper. Anakin said him "Don't bother master. Anyone who gets close to the Dark Reaper will be instantly killed. I'm the only one who can stop it."
We have conflicting information then. Are you referring to the force harvester which harvests the force?
Nevertheless it is still very different from Nihilus's force powers. Nihilus eats all the force present. If Anakin attempts to shield himself with the force it would not matter.
It was stated that Nihilus's only weakness was the Exile due to his nature, of being a void where there was NO FORCE. This technique of Anakin would not help.
According to the information I have Anakin and what's her name fled the area because of the harvest that was draining the force. It devoured forests. And Ulic whatever the famous Jedi who fell to the dark side because of the information he learned taught the information to Anakin so that he could harness the force and keep it from being "harvested" I guess you can say. For it was said by Mace Windu that it took the Force from living beings as an energy source.
And Traya's does what?
Originally posted by Razielim
Proof they ever even fought a Dark Jedi, much less every day?
Kavar dueled Malak to a near standstill. He was ultimately defeated by the Dark lord of the Sith.
Malak led a squadron of Dark Jedi on Dantooine to attack Vrook and all the other Jedi masters.
They stated that they were continually under attack by Sith assassins trained by Nihilus and Sion.
Kavar fought fought dark Jedi serving Nihilus on Onderon.
They fought with the Republic against Revan. They lived during the period of Exar Kun and Ulic Qel Droma, ultimately taking part in the Jedi civil war of that period, where apprentice turned against Master.
Originally posted by ESB - 1138
According to the information I have Anakin and what's her name fled the area because of the harvest that was draining the force. It devoured forests. And Ulic whatever the famous Jedi who fell to the dark side because of the information he learned taught the information to Anakin so that he could harness the force and keep it from being "harvested" I guess you can say. For it was said by Mace Windu that it took the Force from living beings as an energy source.And Traya's does what?
You are trying to draw parrallels between the force harvester and the technique that Nihilus and Traya uses. However they are completely different in nature. The move that Traya used was a technique of the ancient Sith to which there was no defence. Nihilus was shown draining an entire planet of the force. All of this was done instantaneously. If Anakin harnessed the force, Nihilus would simply drain it and what Anakin possessed. The only way to avoid this is if you are WOUND in the force. Which Anakin is not. Traya basically uses the same technique.
That's why she could not use her instantkill on the Exile when they ultimately dueled. It would not work on him.