Originally posted by Razielim
Doesn't she use the same technique on Korriban when the Exile is pretty far away?
Yes, as Lightsnake said, they were still connected.
And we don't know what she did to those assassins, we just head them fall down, the sound of the draining technique is pretty loud, we just hear them falling to the ground. These could for example be the same assassins that bow to the Exile when he enters...
Originally posted by Lightsnake
basically? Obviously this technique can be used on varying levels.
Yes...drain some power away, instakill the opponent, destroy live on an entire planet draining millions of force users. So ?
Nihilius restricted her powers to some degree and left her to Sion apparently. But only Visas describes Ni as just a man...Traya says he's no longer human.
Still Visas took his mask away and says he's just a man. So nothing special there - or she would have mentioned it.
She could easily have been prepping it before she even walked in. But once again: That things have changed in the interim. Odan thought his blocking technique was infallible and the greatest power of the lightside.
Where did he say it was infallible or there was no defence against it ?
Yoda does limit himself. However, during the fight with Sidious, apparently either thought using Force powers on one another would be a waste of time...and if it came to it, Yoda'd have his saber through Traya's head before she could blink.
More assumptions please, Lightsnake. Sidious and Yoda did use force powers against each other. What do you want to tell me here ? That Yoda can "surprise" Sidious with a force push instead of "surprising" him with a "Wall of Light" or "Moricho" attack - which would be more useful. Or first push him over his desk and then use some of those attacks when he was basically defenseless ?
Hell, why didn't Malak use the drain on Revan? And offensive attacks are much different than using the force for defense, which is Yoda's preference.
Uh...because Malak possibly didn't even know it ?
The same Clones they fought with, befriended and trusted for three years and had no malice to be detected whatsoever?
In contrary to Massassi which the Sith Lords commanded for decades or even centuries ?
The Jedi of the KOTOR ages were getting killed by Atton, too.
You did listen when he talks about how he killed them, right ? Assassinating them, using grenades and toxins against them. Obviously he didn't just defeat a Jedi in a duel.
And might I remind you of the Yaddle's death ? Getting killed by a force sensitive assassin is one thing - having to put the own ass on a thermal-detonator to save Anakin is something different...
And Dooku floored Sora Bulq and Anakin...OBi-wan blocked his lightning effectively. And Dooku got that hit on Sora because he knocked his blade aside first....and Jedi don't use offensive force powers? Off the top of my head: Morichro, Malacia, force choke, Electric judgement, force push...
Wow. Impressive. Sith powers: Force choke, force push, force lightning, force drain, force slow (something like Moricho), force fear, force plague, force affliction, force crush and of course the "thought bomb" technique and similar stuff + Sith Alchemy devices (like "deadly amulets" and stuff like this).
So...I wonder if somebody is able to defend himself against half of that stuff. Yoda is a nice candidate for this - but your "average Jedi" ?
And, ok: One, because the Dark Side is weaker than the light and a true master of the Dark Side will always be weaker than a true master of the light, especially when illusions will mean NOTHING in a real fight. Aleema was a powerful illusionist, so were Luke, the Fallanasi, Volfe Karkko and Palpatine...and Volfe's illusions were tricking trained and true Jedi Masters, Aleema's were tricking Jedi of considerable power.
Yes...the Dark Side is weaker than the Light Side...of course. Hence the Dark Side can lessen the Jedi's ability to use the force when you have two Sith against 10,000 Jedi (listen to Yoda in AotC). This is why two Sith can unbalance the entire force. This is why Yoda after 900 years of training, being the most powerful enemy of the Darkness ever could just stalemate Sidious - who got even stronger after that fight, right ?
And Mace was y'know, noticeably unprepared as he just lost his hand to someone he trusted...and only the strongest of Jedi are capable of deflecting force lightning with their bare hands. Only THE strongest. And if the average Jedi will lose to the average Sith Lord, how did a beaten, dominated Order destroy a galaxy full of Sith or how did four knights repulse a battle force of Sith? How did Thon kill the female Sith? How'd revan kill Malak? How'd Hoth send Kaan packing? How'd Murtauugh kill the Dark Underlord, how were Kaox Krul and Rivan killed? Because Jedi master defense and they know how to fight Darksiders.
It's nice how you assume that every Jedi and Sith that we've seen so far is "average"...Do you really want to compare Malak to Ragnos ? Or Murtauugh to Yoda ? No...I don't think so.
The Sith were always beaten because getting betrayed. Every single one of them - every - was taken down because of betrayal. Sadow, Kressh, Kun, Revan even Sidious. So what ?
Hell, we saw Yoda send Dooku packing. Yoda might not use the force as an assault besides the general attacks of morichro, malacia, or a force push, but he can sure as hell deflect whatever's thrown at him and outfight his opponents.
I'd like to see proof that he can deflect a blast of Kun's amulet multiple times bigger than his body and far more destructive then Sith Lightning. I'd like to see proof that he's able to counter force drain or other techniques like that. I'd like to see proof that he can counter force techniques against which there is "no defence". You can't give me proof ? OK...then don't simply assume things like that.
He gained a lot of knowledge then, but he already had plenty. Considering he'd been summoning the spirits of the ancients themselves, already had quite a few holocrons and had visited numerous dark side sites, as well as personally having retrieved Kun's personal trove on Yavin 4...and one of the credentials in Sidious's resume was being able to actually fight Yoda, given you have to be Yoda to even compete with Sidious. Hell, by the time Sidious was training Vergere, she knew he'd become the greatest force of destruction the galaxy had ever seen.
Yes...and because we know jack shit about when he did all that stuff he must have done it all by ROTS - and then he decided to...well not use all of that knowledge when he was clearly needing it because...oh my...there isn't a single reason why he didn't use all that stuff in ROTS times, right ?
Aside of this: Didn't Dooku imagine himself a 900 year old Dark Sider and thought that a DS Yoda would exterminate Sidious in the blink of an eyes...yet several century old Sith Lords shouldn't able to do this because...urrr...I don't know. Sidious somehow managed to become what he was by using their knowledge - but when the inventors of most of that stuff come into play suddenly they must be weaklings because...? See that little "hole" in your "logic" ?
Yeah...just a man who can destroy worlds. I think Kreia, who trained him can safetly say he was no longer a human and that his body was just a shell for power of his level.
Well, Nihilius uses the blocking on Kreia, which Kreia could easily have been referring to.
Sidious already knew Morichro and most of the Jedi arts of the caliber. Yoda's reasons were his own. Perhaps he intended to return the favor from earlier, or show Sidious his own power. It's no different from about a thousand other instances in Star Wars. Kind of like Naga's only force abilities in the duel with Ludo being chucking a rock. I can even show examples of Jedi using 'dark' powers, Mace, Tholme, Plo...
Malak was using drain on those Jedi in the stasis...why would the Dark Lord of the Sith not be privy to a technique lesser Sith use?
My point was to forma comparison with the clones and Massassi betrayals.
Really? Atton talks about also drugging them, sneaking up on them by emptying his mind, clearing his thoughts, etc. And Azkul's unit 'killed many Jedi.' And Yaddle saved an entire planet, not just Anakin.
If these techniques were so infallible and unable to be countered, the Jedi never would have destroyed the Sith Empire. And Memit and the other three never would have been able to destroy the Sith forces. And the thought bomb isn't something you can just use...it's a long preparation process needing more than one Sith Lord and it tends to kill EVERYONE in the near vicinity who's a force sensitive. Kaan used it because he was out of his damn mind and thought the Sith could resist it. Bane and Zannah and a few others survived because they were out of range and the only other survivor-Darovit- wasn't Force sensitive.
Dark Side is weaker than the light side. It's just quicker and more seductive. The light side is stronger and the canon has stated this in the form of numerous masters. There's a REASON there were only two Sith and they weren't exactly facing the Jedi order head on. And I'll remind you Luke was born and only went on to exceed Yoda and Sidious by then has been called in at least two sources the strongest Sith in raw power. Everytime someone dark comes up, the lightside finds a way to destroy them one way or another, simple as that. And we know that at least a few of the Sith of Bane's order have died in battle against the Jedi, and then there's Bane's theory that the Sith are weakened by having multiple members, a theory that was put into practise, too.
Really...the Sith on Coruscant defeated as a result of betrayal? Luke destroying Lumiya...when was she betrayed? The Sith in the first portion of Hoth's offensive, they were betrayed which led to the destruction of their empire? Who betrayed Maul? Who betrayed the Dark Underlord? Who betrayed Kaox Krul, or Bandon, or Malak?
I'd like proof of Kun's amulet being infallible and used on powerful, sentient people. And yeah, it's been stated Yoda's faced the Darkness multiple times, that he's developed the worst it had to offer and learned or developed his own defenses for basically every darkside power...and NOWHERE is Kreia stated to be referring to Force drain, or can we assume KReia to be 100 percent correct, or that knowledge wasn't gained over time or developed by the Exile and his comrades.
By ROTS? Yeah, he did. Complete Locations confirms his taking things from Yavin, we know he's spent decades studying the Dark Side, according to the Ultimate Visual Guide, he's already gotten his hands on some Holocrons and summoned up the spirits of the Sith in dark rituals
And the point of that part of Dooku's narraration was he was wowed and totally intimidated by Yoda. That's not what we call a good perspective on things. Janus pointed that out once. And you're missing this hole in logic: People tend to have natural potential and power, and realize it. The ways to channel it don't change that. And once more: Rivan had well over a thousand years of expeirence yet he was hardly top bannana of his order. And 'nine hundred' is a bit different than 'two hundred' year old Dark Siders. Vergere saw well before ROTS that Palpatine had the potential to become the greatest living force of destruction the galaxy had ever seen and her fears were proven true...one could make a good argument Kun surpassed the Ancients and that because of his natural power. Anakin was far stronger than Obi-wan in the force...and considering we've seen Dark siders with more years on them than Yoda get killed in a single lightsaber move, and experience often yielding for talent and strength, I'm reluctant to see how Dooku's fear-fogged mind means anything when he is being heavily intimidated and terrified by Yoda at that point. A lightside Yoda'd already sent Dooku packing. And who said anything about weaklings? Just because you're not as strong as Yoda, Sidious, Mace or Luke doesn't mean you're weak.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yeah...just a man who can destroy worlds. I think Kreia, who trained him can safetly say he was no longer a human and that his body was just a shell for power of his level.
He is still a human with now known anomalies. I mean...if that sort of power ravages Sidious body - shouldn't the same happen to Nihilus ?
Well, Nihilius uses the blocking on Kreia, which Kreia could easily have been referring to.
Nope. He drains her. She isn't blocked from the force since she's still able to move her lightsaber a little bit after Nihilus used the attack on her.
Sidious already knew Morichro and most of the Jedi arts of the caliber.
Source ? Most of that Jedi arts were even uncommon among the Jedi - so how would Sidious know them before gaining access to their archieves ?
Yoda's reasons were his own. Perhaps he intended to return the favor from earlier, or show Sidious his own power. It's no different from about a thousand other instances in Star Wars. Kind of like Naga's only force abilities in the duel with Ludo being chucking a rock. I can even show examples of Jedi using 'dark' powers, Mace, Tholme, Plo...
Again irrelevant missdirection. The point is that we now what Sadow can do because we know what Kun who received his entire knowledge from Sadow was able to pull off. And there is a huge difference between using Dark Side powers against a Jedi not being familiar with them or another Sith Lord who did receive equally long training in the same arts...
Malak was using drain on those Jedi in the stasis...why would the Dark Lord of the Sith not be privy to a technique lesser Sith use?
Those Jedi were already dead and he did use a lifedrain on them (hence healing himself) and no "force drain" - there's a difference.
My point was to forma comparison with the clones and Massassi betrayals.
Which can't be formed. The Clones are just troops in comment of a commander. The Massassi are slaves that didn't even rebel against being sacrificed at Ragnos' funeral. They are simply part of the property of their Sith Lords. They are "things" so to say. Now imagine your axe, knife or whatever attacking you...
Really? Atton talks about also drugging them, sneaking up on them by emptying his mind, clearing his thoughts, etc. And Azkul's unit 'killed many Jedi.' And Yaddle saved an entire planet, not just Anakin.
And he's a force sensitive hence his ability to shield his thoughts from the Jedi. Same with Azkul who is immune to Jedi mind tricks. And there is a difference between assassinating and capturing Jedi or plain and simply defeat them in a fair fight.
If these techniques were so infallible and unable to be countered, the Jedi never would have destroyed the Sith Empire. And Memit and the other three never would have been able to destroy the Sith forces.
More assumptions, please. We again don't know if they ever fought people being able to perform such attacks so this point is mood.
And the thought bomb isn't something you can just use...it's a long preparation process needing more than one Sith Lord and it tends to kill EVERYONE in the near vicinity who's a force sensitive. Kaan used it because he was out of his damn mind and thought the Sith could resist it. Bane and Zannah and a few others survived because they were out of range and the only other survivor-Darovit- wasn't Force sensitive.
a) I said "similar" techniques - so please tell the female Sith that Thon defeated that she wasn't allowed to exterminate all live on the planet and if you are at it go and tell Nihilus that he wasn't allowed to drain an entire planet empty.
b) Bane survived because he minimized his own presence in the force, same with Zannah. That didn't have much to do with being "out of range" or something like that.
Dark Side is weaker than the light side. It's just quicker and more seductive. The light side is stronger and the canon has stated this in the form of numerous masters.
No, dude. Dark and Light are equally strong. When Luke asks Yoda if the Dark Side is stronger, Yoda replies that this isn't the case - it's just quicker and more seductive. Where did he say "less powerful" ? Did you miss the fact that Sidious became stronger after he had defeated the "most powerful enemy of the light" ?
There's a REASON there were only two Sith and they weren't exactly facing the Jedi order head on. And I'll remind you Luke was born and only went on to exceed Yoda and Sidious by then has been called in at least two sources the strongest Sith in raw power. Everytime someone dark comes up, the lightside finds a way to destroy them one way or another, simple as that.
That doesn't equal "the light side is stronger". It's more individual X is stronger then individual Y. Sometimes not even that if you have 2 people (or 2.5 people) trying to fight a single other person. What does this proof ? Nothing.
And we know that at least a few of the Sith of Bane's order have died in battle against the Jedi, and then there's Bane's theory that the Sith are weakened by having multiple members, a theory that was put into practise, too.
A theory that was utter nonsense - otherwise training 292 Dark Side adepts of different levels like Palpatine and Vader did would be idiocy. Glentract once posted a list of Sidious' and Vader's recruits and it was a very huge number. But that surely didn't weaken their power.
Really...the Sith on Coruscant defeated as a result of betrayal? Luke destroying Lumiya...when was she betrayed? The Sith in the first portion of Hoth's offensive, they were betrayed which led to the destruction of their empire? Who betrayed Maul? Who betrayed the Dark Underlord? Who betrayed Kaox Krul, or Bandon, or Malak?
I was talking about people that held the "Dark Lord" title since it's pretty useless to talk about their subordinates. And all those Dark Lords were betrayed...and please exclude self-proclaimed Sith here.
I'd like proof of Kun's amulet being infallible and used on powerful, sentient people. And yeah, it's been stated Yoda's faced the Darkness multiple times, that he's developed the worst it had to offer and learned or developed his own defenses for basically every darkside power...and NOWHERE is Kreia stated to be referring to Force drain, or can we assume KReia to be 100 percent correct, or that knowledge wasn't gained over time or developed by the Exile and his comrades.
Did you see Kun's amulet getting blocked ? No ? Infallible. It's damn obvious that Yoda had problems with Sidious lightning and it's even more obvious that Kun's amulet blasts are far more destructive - hence I don't see Yoda blocking them.
And Kreia was refering to the force drain, and was most likely correct since she studied the stuff for years. And with the source of this power destroyed as well as all people who learned it killed - how would the Exile develope a defence against it, huh ?
By ROTS? Yeah, he did. Complete Locations confirms his taking things from Yavin, we know he's spent decades studying the Dark Side, according to the Ultimate Visual Guide, he's already gotten his hands on some Holocrons and summoned up the spirits of the Sith in dark rituals
Oh yes...The same Ultimate Visual Guide that only deals with the movies (hence the "visual"😉 and does ignore the EU pretty much ? We don't know when he got his hands on what knowledge exactly.
People tend to have natural potential and power, and realize it. The ways to channel it don't change that. And once more: Rivan had well over a thousand years of expeirence yet he was hardly top bannana of his order.
Wow. Since when does the full potential develop in terms of minutes. And Rivan likely didn't have much potential, ok. Unlike the Ancients or Kun ?
Vergere saw well before ROTS that Palpatine had the potential to become the greatest living force of destruction the galaxy had ever seen and her fears were proven true...
And because having the potential to do so he must have reached the top of his powers by ROTS when we know that isn't the case when he has become stronger from ROTS to ROTJ and even more stronger in DE ?
And who said anything about weaklings? Just because you're not as strong as Yoda, Sidious, Mace or Luke doesn't mean you're weak.
Since you completely base the assumption that they are weaker then Sidious, Yoda, Mace on your own ideas which include the complete denial that somebody could even come close to Sidious (even in his ROTS form) - they don't have to. Technically an Ancient Dark Lord might be able to curbstomp Yoda. Proof that it isn't the case ? Doesn't exists.
Different sorts of power. Sidious's is power in the darkside he developed over time-the Sith on Korriban say he long ago gave everything to the darkside, he was pretty much the darkside's 'chosen one'...Nihilius couldn't control his power and his was 'The Hunger' so it was rather different. Sidious was fully in control. Nihilius was an eating machine.
So she isn't totally blocked. Or she could be shaken from being hurled across the room.
Because he'd spent 'decades' mastering their disciplines...either he'd stolen a holocron or Plagueis taught him...possible he'd gotten it from the holocron in Shadow Hunter.
That's also irrelevant to Sadow: It's limited to alchemy and illusions thus far with no prowess in offensive force skills beyond chucking a brick. And Kun's natural power could easily have been greater than Sadow's.
They weren't dead per say...and he absorbed their life and powers, given his connection to the Star Forge.
I don't think those slim, curvy female Sith slaves had anything to say about the sacrifice...they hardly looked able to fight any more than the old bearded Sith the massassi shoved away. The Massassi were Sadow's private forces though and the clones had been specially positioned just for that moment. They'd even befriended the Jedi for over three years. What gives me a bit of pause on theSith there is how Dor Gal-Ram died...he was facing the Massassi and screaming as they charged him and brought him down. And this a Sith on the council. A trained warrior of two centuries should be able to react. Even some of the Jedi managed to react or even escape.
The Sith Lords they fought didn't know those abilities? The Sith leading the attack on Coruscant? Shar Dakhan didn't? Hell, I could make a case for Shar Dakhan not being able to regulate his breathing in the force.
The difference is the thought bomb is a bit different from Nihilius's drain and the female Sith Force Pulse. Do we even know the extent of the life on Ambria? And no, The Thought Bomb didn't kill Zannah and Bane simply because they were out of range. A lot of other creatures survived on Ruusan-the bouncers- and some of the Jedi who were too far away.
That's Yoda saying the dark side is weaker. He even goes over that in Dark Rendevous. Tholme pretty much told Quin the Dark side isn't as strong as the light and we've seen Tholme use some rather dark techniques.
And the lightside, which, through careful years of study and true mastery, grants more power than the Dark Side could ever hope so...that seems to speak quite highly of people like Luke or Yoda.
The Dark Jedi there weren't Sith, the Inquisitors, Hands, Dark Side Elite...dark Jedi and they have no place factoring into the Sith's power. Bane had proof too: His power had diminished and strengthened again when the other Sith died.
The Dark Underlord was still killed by Murtauggh, Kaox Krul wasn't betrayed and Rivan's betrayal could easily simply be Kaan just not supporting him in a battle, and given Kaan's cowardly nature and near breakdown status at this time...
Do I see Kun using them on Jedi? No. Do I know Sith weaponry can be countered and destroyed with a tug of the Force or by a lightsaber? And there's a difference between those blasts and lightning, which only the strongest of the Jedi masters could block barehanded. And the exile had a natural defense against it, he could've developed something, knowledge could be gained or KReia could be wrong, exactly like she was wrong about her views on the Force. And where was she referrign to the Force drain? Why not Nihilius's attack in general?
The Visual Guide deals with the EU dating back to the Golden Age of the Sith and to post ROTJ, thank you. You're thinking of the Visual Dictionaries. We know enough of what he got his hands on by that time.
Rivan had mastered new ways of focusing the Dark side's power, he was Dark Lord of the Sith for a time, and he's had a thousand years to practise the Dark Side in the age of darkness, and he was one of the most feared Dark Lords, hence him remaining unmolested on Almas for such a long time.
Or more logically he was already incredibly powerful by ROTS and without the Jedi and access to everything he wanted, he just continued to get stronger.
Why should I believe they could defeat the strongest Jedi Master ever? Or someone who'd mastered every aspect of the force and every technique from the Sith and Jedi? Or one of the two best swordsmen the JEdi Order had ever known? And the key word is 'might'...more likely, Yoda'd be able to win.
Am I saying said dark lords don't come close? No. I'm just annoyes at the downplaying of Yoda and the like when we have far more to support them. By ROTS, Sidious perhaps might lose to one of the outstanding individuals. But Yoda or by DE? Somehow I doubt it. See, it's the overblowing of Ragnos that really gets me, when he's the best duelist ever, strongest Force user ever, can take on DE PAlpatine, DN Luke, Yoda and Exar Kun all at once...yeah, that sort of thing.
By the by, Nai, you ahve any IM? My time on the MBs may be limited and I'd enjoy continuing this discussion
Originally posted by Lightsnake
So she isn't totally blocked. Or she could be shaken from being hurled across the room.
Errr...no she wasn't totally blocked but a "blocking" technique would do exactly that either permanently or for a limit time period. And no - a simple force push or something of that sort just "hurling her across the room" won't have the same effect. We've seen Jedi and Sith taking far worse physical threatment without having their force powers affected.
Because he'd spent 'decades' mastering their disciplines...either he'd stolen a holocron or Plagueis taught him...possible he'd gotten it from the holocron in Shadow Hunter.
And he still didn't use anything beyond force TK and some lightning in the movies...
That's also irrelevant to Sadow: It's limited to alchemy and illusions thus far with no prowess in offensive force skills beyond chucking a brick. And Kun's natural power could easily have been greater than Sadow's.
What ? Kun is wearing Sadow's amulet so I guess Sadow would be able to use it / them too. Aside of this everything that Kun used was Sadow's knowledge. Freezing the Senate for example. Yet Sadow had centuries to master that stuff in contrary to Kun who only had some months but somehow Kun > Sadow ? Uh-hu...
They weren't dead per say...and he absorbed their life and powers, given his connection to the Star Forge.
Yes. The Star Forge killed multiple Jedi and Sith trying to use it and it wiped out the entire Rakatan civilisation. Malak descripes the thing as having stored more dark side energies than Revan can even imagine, Ajunta Pall descripes the power as terrible. But compared to that thing Kun was more powerful - he was the "darkest power in the Galaxy" at a time where the Star Forge still existed. Hmm...
I don't think those slim, curvy female Sith slaves had anything to say about the sacrifice...they hardly looked able to fight any more than the old bearded Sith the massassi shoved away. The Massassi were Sadow's private forces though and the clones had been specially positioned just for that moment. They'd even befriended the Jedi for over three years. What gives me a bit of pause on theSith there is how Dor Gal-Ram died...he was facing the Massassi and screaming as they charged him and brought him down. And this a Sith on the council. A trained warrior of two centuries should be able to react. Even some of the Jedi managed to react or even escape.
What should he have done, huh ? He had an entire ship filled with Massassi against him and he simply wasn't prepared for an attack by his own troops.
The Sith Lords they fought didn't know those abilities? The Sith leading the attack on Coruscant? Shar Dakhan didn't? Hell, I could make a case for Shar Dakhan not being able to regulate his breathing in the force.
Why would every damn Sith (even those not belonging to the council) pocess knowledge of the most powerful force attacks ? Sure they might have knowledge of the "basic" attacks but unblockable techniques ? And you don't know how powerful those Jedi were.
And you could try to make a case for Shar Dakhan not being able to regulate his breathing but only if you know jack shit about chemistry especialy Cyanogen.
The difference is the thought bomb is a bit different from Nihilius's drain and the female Sith Force Pulse.
It's a bit different, yes. But people who can annihilate the live on entire planets or at least huge areas with unprepared force attacks wouldn't care much about a single Sith or Jedi in their way...
That's Yoda saying the dark side is weaker. He even goes over that in Dark Rendevous. Tholme pretty much told Quin the Dark side isn't as strong as the light and we've seen Tholme use some rather dark techniques.
Since when does the EU overwrite the films and Lucas words ?
And the lightside, which, through careful years of study and true mastery, grants more power than the Dark Side could ever hope so...that seems to speak quite highly of people like Luke or Yoda.
Hello...ROTS...Sidious was nearly equal to Yoda. Sidious 65 years, Yoda 880 years. And then Sidious became even stronger after this. But the Light Side grants more power through careful years of study ?
The Dark Jedi there weren't Sith, the Inquisitors, Hands, Dark Side Elite...dark Jedi and they have no place factoring into the Sith's power. Bane had proof too: His power had diminished and strengthened again when the other Sith died.
Lightsnake. The theory was that control over the Dark Side should have been limited to two people. If you train dozens of Dark Side users it doesn't matter if you call them Sith or not. Not that it even matters because the Dark Side is part of the force which is "unlimited power" per definitionem.
The Dark Underlord was still killed by Murtauggh, Kaox Krul wasn't betrayed and Rivan's betrayal could easily simply be Kaan just not supporting him in a battle, and given Kaan's cowardly nature and near breakdown status at this time...
Dark Underlord = Dark Lord of the Sith ? Kaox Krul = Dark Lord of the Sith ? Rivan = Dark Lord of the Sith ? I think it's rather stupid to site examples of people we basically no nothing about - same with the people who actually defeated them.
Do I see Kun using them on Jedi? No.
Possibly against Odan which doesn't even matter. A guy that can kill 1,000 year old Jedi Masters with a force attack doesn't need to use some amulets against them.
Do I know Sith weaponry can be countered and destroyed with a tug of the Force or by a lightsaber?
Did you see somebody destroying Sith weaponary being used by a living Sith lord with the force or a lightsaber ? I don't think so.
And there's a difference between those blasts and lightning, which only the strongest of the Jedi masters could block barehanded.
Yes...the difference is that those blasts are fare larger and more destructive as seen in the comics. I'd like to see somebody blocking this with his bare hands...
And the exile had a natural defense against it, he could've developed something, knowledge could be gained or KReia could be wrong, exactly like she was wrong about her views on the Force. And where was she referrign to the Force drain? Why not Nihilius's attack in general?
A "natural defence". He was immune to the technique because he himself didn't have any force powers but gained power through force bonds with his friends. You can't "drain" somebody when there is nothing to drain.
The Visual Guide deals with the EU dating back to the Golden Age of the Sith and to post ROTJ, thank you. You're thinking of the Visual Dictionaries. We know enough of what he got his hands on by that time.
We do ? Pages ? Quotes ?
Rivan had mastered new ways of focusing the Dark side's power, he was Dark Lord of the Sith for a time, and he's had a thousand years to practise the Dark Side in the age of darkness, and he was one of the most feared Dark Lords, hence him remaining unmolested on Almas for such a long time.
Rivan was just a Sith Lord since I didn't see any Ancient Sith handing the title over to them. The only people that had the honor to rightfully call them "Dark Lord" were Ragnos, Sadow, Kressh and possibly the people after Bane. Aside of that...nobody.
Why should I believe they could defeat the strongest Jedi Master ever? Or someone who'd mastered every aspect of the force and every technique from the Sith and Jedi? Or one of the two best swordsmen the JEdi Order had ever known? And the key word is 'might'...more likely, Yoda'd be able to win.
Why should anybody believe that Sidious mastered all Jedi and Sith techniques when he doesn't use all of them and even says himself there are techniques he can't control himself ? Why should I believe that the Ancients wouldn't just oblitare Yoda with techniques more dangerous and powerful then force lightning when he had problems defending himself against it ?
Am I saying said dark lords don't come close? No. I'm just annoyes at the downplaying of Yoda and the like when we have far more to support them. By ROTS, Sidious perhaps might lose to one of the outstanding individuals. But Yoda or by DE? Somehow I doubt it. See, it's the overblowing of Ragnos that really gets me, when he's the best duelist ever, strongest Force user ever, can take on DE PAlpatine, DN Luke, Yoda and Exar Kun all at once...yeah, that sort of thing.
All at once ? No. The point is that Ragnos power is an unknown. We saw his subordinates - people he dominated and kept under his belt for more than a century being able to "cause the death of star systems" take over planets just with their personal force powers, wipe the life of entire planets. A person able to instantly kill Jedi Council Members with a handmovement descripes his grasp on the dark side as "frightening" and herself as well as her "friends" as "children" compared to the martial powers of the Ancient Sith in general. Luke in JK:JA thinks it might take the combined strength of all the Jedi in the Academy to try and stop a living Ragnos.
And especially if the last statement was right (and I don't have any doubt it might be right): If somebody is possibly able to wipe the combined forces of the Academy out on his own, including post DE Luke, Kyp Durron, Kyle Katarn, Jaden Korr, Kam Solusar, Corran Horn and Mara Jade - especially when Luke's teachings included the ability to join their force powers together - what would stop him from killing Yoda or DE Sidious ?
Really now? How total is the blocking? Does it vary? Traya's old, too, and Nihilius's push could easily have hurt her. And considering his drain tends to be fatal..
Fantastic. Arguing with canon, the canon wins. He had no reason to use anything else apparently. Ok: Naga had no offensive force powers. He never uses any beyond TK in the comics.
The amulet was powered by the rage in Kun's heart, who says it'll work the same way for anyone else? And apparently KJA said Kun was stronger. And Kun also had the benefit of discovering new things, refining himself beyond what Sadow dreamed and had more to study, go on and probably just had plain more raw power and potential.
Yeah, because the historian recording Kun's time knew of the Star Forge, which surfaced forty years later...and 'darkest power'...I don't think the Star Forge classifies as 'evil', or a 'power' in the context they're using. Seriously, that's desperation on another level.
He was being attacked by...four Massassi? Five? Maybe, I dunno, when you see them slowly advancing and assaulting, use the force, use your sword? These guys are centuries old trained warriors and Dol looks more the warrior than most.
Really now? We see the Exile and Kreia able to refulate their breathing against poison gas. We see Luke able to do the same thing and survive breathing methane. And I dunno, maybe the Sith Lords trusted in assaulting CORUSCANT may just have a bit of Sith knowledge. And considering those Jedi drove back an army, I'd say they were pretty damn powerful.
Yeah, the female Sith destroyed all life...except Thon. How many sentient, force sensitive beings were on Ambira? Bane annihilated every living thing on Ruusan except the Jedi, too.
It doesn't, it's clarifying. I forget...where'd Lucas say the dark side was as powerful? Yoda said the darkside wasn't stronger, that it was quicker and more seductive.
Yoda becomes stronger himself, your point? And Luke exceeded both of them.
Not what Bane said: The Dark side is spread too thin, and his control voer the force had weakned to a point where poison nearly killed him. And there's a difference between Sith and dark jedi, a big different. Power, the little detail over the force being imbalanced...
Dark Underlord was a DlotS, so was Rivan. And Kaox Krul was one of the leading Dark Lords in the brotherhood, along with Seviss Vaa-also killed by a Jedi, Qordis, Kaan and Bane, Kopecz and Githany, too.
Lesse, we know Luke destroyed what Shadowspawn used against him, we know Palp casually destroyed the Kashi-Mer talisman Arden used against him, and Kashi-mer talismans could kill Jedi masters in seconds, we saw Jaden Kor destroy the scepter when Ragnos went for it...there's a reason to think it's different if someone's holding it or not?
Same as when Tott Doneeta pretty much deflected an entire sandstorm on Ryloth? Or when Luke deflected blasts from star ships? Yeah, considering Yoda's got a defense against all attacks from the darkside in the force, I think the amulets qualify.
And because of the Exile, the Jedi wouldn't be able to develop a defense?
Open the Ultimate visual guide, completel locations, Dark side sourcebook, Essential guide to characters, dark Empire sourcebook...he'd spent decades studying the esoteric disciplines and powers of the Jedi and Sith, he'd already littered his office with sith artifacts and items, including from Yavin 4 by ROTS, the Visual Guide mentions Palpatine often visited Korriban and other Dark Side worlds and listed Sithisis as a source when saying he summoned the spirits of the Sith in rituals...
Oh, here we go..."They're just Sith Lords unless the Ancients give them the title!" They didn't give it to Ruin, Palpatine, Bane...Rivan was a DLOtS. He;s called that directly, same as Kaan.
Considering Sidious recorded that little detail before he gained more power and effortlessly controlled two force storms...and Yoda had mastered pretty much, what, every defense against the Dark Side? Only the most powerful Jedi could defend Force lightning...why shouldn't we believe force lightning's stronger than anything the Ancients can use? Kun's called a master of Force lightning in the Dark Side sourcebook, should we bother noting that because he never uses it? Why should I believe Sadow could use offensive techniques of his own? Why should I think Ludo's strong when he can't stop a spaceship from hitting his ship when people like Yoda, Luke and Palpatine can move ships with their minds and the force? And you really want there to be about six comics, with pages devoting themselves to Palpatine and Yoda doing various abilities with the force just so people can be satisfied when a simple sentence of them knowing those things will do?
Which is compared to Palpatine, able to do all of those things? All of which have been duplicated by other Sith and Dark Jedi even? Bane was able to obliterate all life on Ruusan and reduce it to a desert wasteland and by the prequels, Palpatine was stronger. When most of those are unknowns? When Naga needed a ship and the weapon? When Freedon Nadd just chased off wild beasts and set himself up as king to primitive natives? And is Quin godlike for killing Karko? nameless Jedi or offing Rivan? Palpatine for the 25,000 year old Arden Lyn? When the female Sith on Ambria couldn't kill the Jedi on the planet? And it took practically the entire power of the light to stop Palpatine and every Jedi who ever lived to bind his spirit into the Dark side. Oh, and the context in which Luke says it is about stopping ragnos's forces and his ressurection, that's the point of the mission...Luke even says there's no telling what Marka is capable of. Even the Chronology says they went to stop Ragnos from being ressurected and Luke never makes ANY mention that they're going to face a living Ragnos...he says it will take all their forces to stop him...stop him from ressurecting? Seems fair enough in the context.
Because a single quote from Luke in a video game is enough to place Marka above everyone else? when Marka's own creator considers him below Kun? I asked Kevin directly who he thought the strongest Sith was, and he responded that he didn't have a way to measure power levels, maybe if LFL did a comic or something featuring Palpatine fighting the spirit of Exar Kun, we'd find out.
And what;s to stop him from killing Yoda or DE Sidious? Possibly one having mastered every defense against the Dark Side-ever think that maybe Sidious being able to press Yoda is Sidious's power and not Yoda's weakness? When Sidious is capable of tearing holes in the very fabric of reality, having grown well beyond the guy who's the strongest Jedi master ever in the most powerful age of the Jedi,who was also the top swordsman of the Jedi order practically ever, having mastered every secret and technique of the Sith and Jedi, when he was already the strongest living force of destruction the galaxy had seen by the time of ROTS, when, last I checked, the sith Empire was part fo the galaxy. And before I forget, why is 'frightening' suddenly greater than, oh, titanic, manifestation of darkness, darkness beyond darkness, godlike...
You can take Luke's comment about ragnos there, an ambiguous comment whose meaning is debateable considering Luke'd never even heard of ragnos prior to anything and Luke noticeably isn't channelign the entire lightside of the Force anymore-and I remind you of Jacen realizing he'd never achieve the same exalted state again...I'm supposed to take Luke's ambiguous quote as gospel? Ok, fine, then no worries about Voren Na'Al's definitive quote about PAlpatine being the strongest Sith ever, the Dark Side sourcebook calling Palpatine the strongest, Betrayal calling him the most powerful force of destruction the galaxy had seen, the Dark Empire sourcebook calling him the full embodiment of the powers of the Sith, the ROTS novelization calling them the embodiments of the dark and light side, Sidious calling himself the dark side when he practically became the dark side in flesh etc. Especially when there's no proof Tulak Hord, Ajunta Pall, Darth Andeddu and Dathka Graush were weaker than Ragnos, considering the narraration of GaotS states that mating with the Sith watered down the powerful bloodlines.
An obscure footnote creation over the embodiment of evil and good in the movies and Legacy of the Force Luke? For some reason, I rather doubt it. Oh, and dominated? He certainly didn't 'dominate' Naga who showed open contempt when he reappeared and practised dangerous experiments...And Ragnos also had a habit of fostering infighting to keep himself on top apparently, so his political savvy was really something to scoff at.
And also, Nai, have any IM?
Originally posted by kamikz
Just a thing, I thought the Exile was the reason Kreia could use the draining technique in the first place.This is just a theory, but I don't think Kreia can use it whenever she wants....
This was neither stated in game. If you want to bring this in order to counter Traya you must first state an instance where Traya states her technique is limited when the Exile is around. Otherwise it is just plain fallacious to go by this assumption.
After all, we did see her use it when she was against the Jedi masters, AND when she was on a planet several lightyears away.
It seems likely, because if her attack was unlimited, the Exile wouldn't have to do any fighting at all; just sit behind and watch Kreia instakill. She can't do it in-game, it was never remarked, so it probably didn't happen before.
And keep in mind Kreia was incredibly weak before she performed the attack.
Originally posted by Razielim
It seems likely, because if her attack was unlimited, the Exile wouldn't have to do any fighting at all; just sit behind and watch Kreia instakill. She can't do it in-game, it was never remarked, so it probably didn't happen before.And keep in mind Kreia was incredibly weak before she performed the attack.
The reason why we don't see Traya using the instantkill as much as she wants is because Nihilus and Sion ambushed her on Malachor and took away her powers. She had to regained them, and it only happened by the time the Exile confronted the Jedi council members.
Afterwards she used the same technique against Sion's minions, while she was seperated from the Exile.
Proof that it was the insta-kill she used....
Indeed it is just a theory, but Kreia never says she can use it whenever she wants either. Kreia's dream was to see the force end, she saw this in the Exile, that is why he was unique to her. Why would she love the Exile if she was able to kill the force/drain the force herself?
She said that it was not a technique that could be taught, and Nihilus and the Exile where the only ones that could use it. How could she have learnt it?
Originally posted by Razielim
[b]Malak had legions of Dark Jedi. The Jedi were caught by surprise and had to fight there way through. Although the exact conditions are unknown, the most accurate assumption would be that they DID have to fight dark Jedi on there way of the planet.Not too sure about that one. Jedi like to avoid conflict at all time. Vrook was a sneaky one who could have escaped without harming a soul.
Indeed, they stated "we are under attack against an enemy we have never seen before". Clearly, they had to do their fair share of fighting against Sith Assassins.
I see. Who says this, BTW?
Far more than the PT era JEdi
Most of 'em, probably, but then there are people like Kenobi who fought against darksiders countless times. He fought Sith Lords five times... defeating them twice, losing to 'em twice and stalemating one once. He fought against Asajj nearly 6 times and he probably fought others in Dooku's circle during the Clone Wars. He also fought Grievous who fought better than most Dark Jedi as far as saber combat was concerned. Kenobi had a ton of experience dueling darksides and people like Mace (Who fought... Dooku and Depa during the CW) were above him.
Vrook was chosen as the defacto leader of the Jedi council during the militaristic times. Clearly he was a warlord of sorts, and arguably the strongest of the trio, given that only he could resist Kreia's force onslaught.
Wasn't that gameplay? All of them got knocked back. Sometimes I remember Kai was the one still standing. [/B]
1. Your assumption that somehow they escaped with minimal conflict makes absolutely no sense. The most reasonable assumption is that there was a battle and the masters had to do a good share of the fighting. Many of the Jedi on Dantooine were killed by Malak, only a few fought and escaped.
2. Well it was more or less stated by each council member, however I remember Vrook said something closest to those words.
3. Granted the masters of PT also had to do some fighting it is incomparable to those of the KOTOR masters. Firstly, Malak and Revan had entire ACADEMIES dedicated to raising dark Jedi. Ever noticed the amount of Sith Assassins that Revan dealt with on his quest for the council? How about the numbers described by Malak on board the Star Forge? How about the academies on Korriban and several other worlds? The number of Dark Jedi present in PT was significantly smaller. Clearly the three masters of KOTOR saw FAR more combat.
4. You did not reflect on Jolee's quote about the betrayals being widespread, on how he had to fight his own wife. The number of betrayals were far more widespread as described in KOTOR. Again, a far greater threat from the dark side during those martial times.
5. No it wasn't. Vrook is always the one that rises, and Traya pushes him down again.
Understand that the amount of knowledge lost as the generations progressed was significant. Perhaps in the context of the movies Yoda knew every single defence against the darkside during the PT, but it is fallacious to assume the same in the context of the EU (since the only darkside technique that was ever shown was force lightning and choke). Anyone who believes otherwise is either a simpleton or stubborn (or both).
Originally posted by kamikz
Proof that it was the insta-kill she used....Indeed it is just a theory, but Kreia never says she can use it whenever she wants either. Kreia's dream was to see the force end, she saw this in the Exile, that is why he was unique to her. Why would she love the Exile if she was able to kill the force/drain the force herself?
She said that it was not a technique that could be taught, and Nihilus and the Exile where the only ones that could use it. How could she have learnt it?
1. Proof: She raised her hands and the Assassins die.
2. The Exile was a WOUND in the force, his ability to destroy the force is much "larger scale" than hers. While Traya can use the technique on Jedi masters, the Exile had the potential to rip the force from the galaxy itself, if cultivated properly. That is why she calls the Exile the "death of the force"
3. She may have had the same experience as Nihilus within Malachor, but obviously, it was never cultivated as was with the latter of the two.
Yet we hear and see the sith assassins die. The sound may have been present because we were right next to Traya when she used the technique in the council chamber.
The second time it was an overhead view of a group of assassins guarding malachor's gates.
I would not place too much importance on t he sound anyways.
Actually, when we see the assassins approache, we are closer to Kreia than in the council chamber. She is walking towards the screen and they appear, the screen goes black and we hear them fall to the ground. These guys could likley be those who kneel for the Exile when he approaches the temple.
There is no proof that she actually did it, not the same sound, we didn't actually see what she did, the same amount of assassins suddenly come and kneel for the Exile while the rest of the academy goes rats-ass on him....
Gotta go to sleep now, bye.
Originally posted by zephiel7First ,we didn't HEAR anything.We only heard the corpses go down,that's it!Second,your's and everyone else' fanboyism of Traya disgusts me.Third,have you yet provided logic indicating that Traya can take down the most powerful Sith Lord in history with her "Zomg!1n5t4 k1l1!!11!" technique?Didn't think so.The indiocy of the people who think Traya can just whip out this technique at will without proof is proof in itself that this forum had been overrun by n00bs.Seriously,she used it on three Jedi Masters who knew NOTHING about Sith techniques or history and now that makes her godlike?!Christ on a bike,thats like me telling you people that hennie stevens is a REAL marijuana smuggler,with absolutely no proof except my word for it!
Yet we hear and see the sith assassins die. The sound may have been present because we were right next to Traya when she used the technique in the council chamber.The second time it was an overhead view of a group of assassins guarding malachor's gates.
I would not place too much importance on t he sound anyways.
The most reasonable assumption is that there was a battle and the masters had to do a good share of the fighting. Many of the Jedi on Dantooine were killed by Malak, only a few fought and escaped.
I disagree because the Jedi were absolutely overwhelmed on Dantooine. If Vrook fought any more than an average scout unit, his cover would be blown and Malak would send an army up his ass.
Jedi do tend to rely on stealth and guile to avoid killing. Ben snuck around a Death Star crawling with Storm Troopers and never harmed a soul.
3. Granted the masters of PT also had to do some fighting it is incomparable to those of the KOTOR masters. Firstly, Malak and Revan had entire ACADEMIES dedicated to raising dark Jedi.
Yes, there were more Dark Jedi running around.
Ever noticed the amount of Sith Assassins that Revan dealt with on his quest for the council?
That's because Revan broke into big Sith bases five times (Taris, Manaan, Korriban, Rakata base and the Star Forge). Not every Jedi Master does this, especially one as famed as Vrook who himself admits he couldn't do the quest. The only other time Revan encounters Dark Jedi is when he's ambushed by three, because Malak specifically hunted him. He likely sent DJ after Vrook too, but not when he was safe on Dantooine. Bastila remarks that Dantooine was relatively safe of Sith attacks.
How about the numbers described by Malak on board the Star Forge? How about the academies on Korriban and several other worlds? The number of Dark Jedi present in PT was significantly smaller. Clearly the three masters of KOTOR saw FAR more combat.
Because there were more Dark Jedi? Vrook sat his ass on Dantooine half the time, safe from Dark Jedi; Kai was probably safely on Coruscant. Kavar may have been kicking ass though. We don't know these guys fought Dark Jedi.
And PT jedi were still trained to fight Sith. Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan fought the first Sith in 1000 years and they still did damn well.
4. You did not reflect on Jolee's quote about the betrayals being widespread, on how he had to fight his own wife. The number of betrayals were far more widespread as described in KOTOR. Again, a far greater threat from the dark side during those martial times.
I believe the number was quantified to 20. Jolee was either off his knocker or exaggerating. There were about as much Dark Jedi in the PT times.
5. No it wasn't. Vrook is always the one that rises, and Traya pushes him down again.
Hell if I'm replaying a lightside game again 😛
I'll take your word for it.
Understand that the amount of knowledge lost as the generations progressed was significant. Perhaps in the context of the movies Yoda knew every single defence against the darkside during the PT, but it is fallacious to assume the same in the context of the EU (since the only darkside technique that was ever shown was force lightning and choke). Anyone who believes otherwise is either a simpleton or stubborn (or both).
Knowledge is also gained through time as well. A lot of knowledge was lost during the Civil War (because many Jedi died) but most of it was preserved in the archives on safe little Coruscant (which have, to my knowledge, remained untouched). You could make a far better argument for Sith knowledge though.