ROTS Tyranus vs. ROTS Anakin and ROTJ Luke

Started by Xavius15 pages

Because you're using a completely different situation. He couldn't block it because he wasn't:

a.) Prepared.
b.) Dooku did it last second.
c.) What you stated below (incredible amounts of speed, power, training).

A) Bullshit. He had five feet of space and was looking directly at Dooku when Dooku lifted his hand up.

B) Sorry, but Anakin wasn't THAT close at that point.

C) Yeah, he sucked. Pretty much.

What "skill"? This skill? The one where Obi-Wan just puts up his lightsaber? Watch it. Seriously, does that look like a skill? It's the equivalent of blocking blaster bolts. Just put your saber up. Of course, you have to be powerful to do this. I doubt Ashla would be able to accomplish such, however, Anakin is powerful as we know.

You make it sound like it's easy to block Blaster Bolts. Tell that to the Jedi Council members and the thousands of other Jedi who got f*ckin' rocked by Clone Troopers.

And blocking Lightning is difficult. It moves fast, it's wild and it has many strands of Lightning.

quote:
Sure, he gained incredible amounts of power and speed AND trained in his form but this is not evidence that he can block Lightning. He's still a Jedi Knight. Even though he does have the potential to be extremely powerful, he's still a Knight. That is Kenobi was able to outduel him and they were on par when it came to the force.

And? So, you have to be a Jedi Master to block Force lightning? Now that's absurd. And seriously, Anakin is a better lightsaber duelist than Kenobi. Kenobi prolonged the fight until the point that Anakin couldn't win. I.e. Terrain advantage. On even ground, Anakin would've won even in his state of mind.

That's a load. Kenobi had Anakin on par during their Mustafar duel. They were on par. The force push, their dueling altogether. Anakin had accomplished the power of a Master, but Kenobi proved to be smarter and on par when it came to dueling skill.

No, but you have to have significant skill in defending with your Lightsaber. Anakin was an offensive duelist if I've ever seen one.

Anakin was the greatest duelist in the Order, but he got put down by his arrogance and rushing . . . Similar to him running towards Dooku in AotC? What makes you think he wouldn't rush again, arrogantly and then just get pwned by Lightning? He showed us he had that blinding arrogance in RotS, so . . .

As much power and speed as he had, he didn't know what the f*ck to do with it at that point.

In fact, when Anakin is thinking clearly - I believe in RODV, isn't it stated he's the best duelist of the Order?

No, but it is stated that Yoda and Mace are the best duelists. If Anakin couldn't defeat Kenobi, what makes you think he's the best?

He was five feet away from Dooku when he did that. He was charging, he wasn't standing there like Obi-Wan. Along with the fact he's far less inexperienced.

He was a dork. And five feet is still quite a ways.

Luke now is about the level of post AOTC but Pre ROTs anakin, so he could at least hold dooku long enough for anakin to bust a move on dooks, and get pissed off 'cause he sucks so bad.

Originally posted by Xavius
A) Bullshit. He had five feet of space and was looking directly at Dooku when Dooku lifted his hand up.

He was in the middle of charging. Again I say, if someone fires a gun at the last moment what chance do I have to dodge it?

B) Sorry, but Anakin wasn't THAT close at that point.

Sadly, as even the script says he did it at the last moment. Implying another second (not even) and Anakin would've met Dooku head on. Considering he was running.

C) Yeah, he sucked. Pretty much.

Irrelevant.

You make it sound like it's easy to block Blaster Bolts.

I saw Anakin block a multitude of blaster bolts. I saw a padawan Kenobi who uses Ataru block blaster bolts. You make it sound as if it's supremely hard. While it may be for others, Anakin has no trouble doing such.

Tell that to the Jedi Council members and the thousands of other Jedi who got f*ckin' rocked by Clone Troopers.

What was that again? Order 66? The - ya' know - surprise attack on the Jedi.

Hell, didn't Zett Jukassa manage to block a few shots?

And blocking Lightning is difficult. It moves fast, it's wild and it has many strands of Lightning.

Many strands that go directly to one place. The target. Did you see Dooku's lightning swerve off in a thousand directions?

quote:
Sure, he gained incredible amounts of power and speed AND trained in his form but this is not evidence that he can block Lightning. He's still a Jedi Knight. Even though he does have the potential to be extremely powerful, he's still a Knight. That is Kenobi was able to outduel him and they were on par when it came to the force.

...? Posted twice

That's a load.

Yeah, if that's a "load" - what is the whole bit about Anakin being a Knight? Lol, being a Knight someone means you can't block lightning? You didn't address that point.

Kenobi had Anakin on par during their Mustafar duel. They were on par. The force push, their dueling altogether. Anakin had accomplished the power of a Master, but Kenobi proved to be smarter and on par when it came to dueling skill.

Is that why Anakin gets the following attacks on a defensive lightsaber practitioner:

1.) Kicks him square in the chest.
2.) Dragon Sleeper.
3.) Dropkick.
4.) Another kick.
5.) Knocks Kenobi around.
6.) Yet another kick dead in the face.

Actually, Anakin > Kenobi in lightsaber abilities. As much is obvious. Kenobi only did one thing: prolong the fight until the point that he got the terrain advantage (similar to the Sidious/Yoda fight). If it was even ground, Anakin would've killed Obi-Wan.

No, but you have to have significant skill in defending with your Lightsaber. Anakin was an offensive duelist if I've ever seen one.

Well, considering Form V was created by Form III masters, and considering it's stated to have defensive moves, except turn them into offensive moves, I'd say he knows defense. For example, instead of just blocking blaster bolts, Form V users redirect them.

As I said Anakin has quite a bit of defending in his skill.

Anakin was the greatest duelist in the Order, but he got put down by his arrogance and rushing . . . Similar to him running towards Dooku in AotC? What makes you think he wouldn't rush again, arrogantly and then just get pwned by Lightning? He showed us he had that blinding arrogance in RotS, so . . .

What makes you think Dooku won't just get pwned ROTS-style? Anakin was under more emotional stress than before during his duel with Kenobi. Far more I'd say.

Perhaps though, you didn't catch "This time we do it together..." says Obi-Wan, Anakin comes back with "I was about to say that".

Real arrogant there, huh? And was he under as much emotional stress? Nope. Why would he be against Dooku now?

As much power and speed as he had, he didn't know what the f*ck to do with it at that point.

Huh? He utilized it well against Dooku I'd say.

No, but it is stated that Yoda and Mace are the best duelists. If Anakin couldn't defeat Kenobi, what makes you think he's the best?

Did I say he was? Point out to me where I said "Lol Anakin > all in lightsaber combat". I asked a question for anyone who has RODV, because that's what I think it says in there. I never gave any definites.

On top of that, what makes me think that is because he wasn't thinking clearly in his fight against Kenobi.

He was a dork. And five feet is still quite a ways.

Dork? ...okay? In one step he'd be meeting Dooku.

Originally posted by Legion_of_Maul
Luke now is about the level of post AOTC but Pre ROTs anakin, so he could at least hold dooku long enough for anakin to bust a move on dooks, and get pissed off 'cause he sucks so bad.

Post AOTC Anakin? Lol. Luke would've been killed by Dooku quicker than Anakin got his arm chopped off.

He was in the middle of charging. Again I say, if someone fires a gun at the last moment what chance do I have to dodge it?

What the hell are you talking about? Lightning is a different story than a gun. Then I guess Kenobi blocking the Lightning was logical fallacy. Wasn't he few feet away when he blocked it?

Sadly, as even the script says he did it at the last moment. Implying another second (not even) and Anakin would've met Dooku head on. Considering he was running.

He had his Lightsaber in his hand. He could have attempted to raise it within that time frame. He was blinded by arrogance . . . Y'know . . . Kind of like he was when Kenobi owned him.

Irrelevant.

Ironically, so is your reply.

I saw Anakin block a multitude of blaster bolts. I saw a padawan Kenobi who uses Ataru block blaster bolts. You make it sound as if it's supremely hard. While it may be for others, Anakin has no trouble doing such.

Form III = Defensive form, blocking blaster bolts and such.

Form V (Anakin uses Form V) = Offensive form of Soresu, blocking blaster bolts and such.

And Ataru is proficient at blocking bolts as well. Remember? Yoda did it in RotS?

Blocking Blaster bolts is NOT easy. Blaster bolts aren't very big and either is the Lightsaber. How the hell can you say blocking bolts are easy?

It's getting completely out of hand now. Claiming Lightning is one thing, but Blaster bolts now? No, this is pathetic.

What was that again? Order 66? The - ya' know - surprise attack on the Jedi.

Hell, didn't Zett Jukassa manage to block a few shots?

Alot of the suspected it. And . . . Uh . . . Ki Adi Mundi. Y'know . . . Council Member, who blocked two or three shots and got f*cked up. Same with Jett. And let me guess . . . Out of all the thousands of Force Sensitives, Ki Adi and Jett were the only ones to have time to realize the betrayal, right?

Many strands that go directly to one place. The target. Did you see Dooku's lightning swerve off in a thousand directions?

No, but it did strand certainly in quite the radius. The strands didn't just slap together.

Yeah, if that's a "load" - what is the whole bit about Anakin being a Knight? Lol, being a Knight someone means you can't block lightning? You didn't address that point.

No, but he still lacks skill. Knights aren't Uber powerful Jedi. Anakin was an exception but that doesn't prove he can block Lightning.

Is that why Anakin gets the following attacks on a defensive lightsaber practitioner:

1.) Kicks him square in the chest.
2.) Dragon Sleeper.
3.) Dropkick.
4.) Another kick.
5.) Knocks Kenobi around.
6.) Yet another kick dead in the face.

Actually, Anakin > Kenobi in lightsaber abilities. As much is obvious. Kenobi only did one thing: prolong the fight until the point that he got the terrain advantage (similar to the Sidious/Yoda fight). If it was even ground, Anakin would've killed Obi-Wan.

Prove it. Seeing as Anakin lost horribly and Kenobi managed to dance on par with him for several minutes, throw some proof my way.

A bunch of Kicks, okay. Kenobi managed to knock him down a few times as well. And when it came Saber to saber, the two were on par. When Anakin flew into the air, he should have had the Lightsaber skill to hack Kenobi (BTW, when he jumped, they were parallel in grounding) and Kenobi still struck him down.

Well, considering Form V was created by Form III masters, and considering it's stated to have defensive moves, except turn them into offensive moves, I'd say he knows defense. For example, instead of just blocking blaster bolts, Form V users redirect them.

As I said Anakin has quite a bit of defending in his skill.

Not enough. Djem So/Shein is the OFFENSIVE version of the DEFENSIVE Soresu. Kenobi was able to redirect Bolts as well, BTW.

What makes you think Dooku won't just get pwned ROTS-style? Anakin was under more emotional stress than before during his duel with Kenobi. Far more I'd say.

And Kenobi wasn't?!? A horrid excuse. Anakin didn't care. He was yearning for power and did not value Kenobi as a brother anymore. Kenobi did. He apparently loved Anakin and would have had a whole ton more emotional trouble than Anakin.

Dooku was under Palpatines watch and most likely thought the fight would be simple as in AotC. Dooku attempted to purely duel Anakin instead of using the Force on him. Why do you think he isolated Kenobi and virtually challenged Anakin, telling him he has a vista of Darkness within him? In the end, Anakin had performed an unorthodox maneuver by throwing his forearms over Dookus, turning his wrists and cutting his hands right off. Dooku wasn't expecting it and he was outdueled. When Anakin got kicked into a wall and Dooku decided to drop Kenobi after choking him and taking upon Anakin by using the Force, Anakin would have lost.

Real arrogant there, huh? And was he under as much emotional stress? Nope. Why would he be against Dooku now?

I've explained this in the last post.

Huh? He utilized it well against Dooku I'd say.

Yeah, in Lightsaber to Lightsaber. Anakin was physically more fit and in the end proved that by utilizing his much stronger arms to push Dooku's arms down. He was quicker and younger as well and he was fairly powerful at that point.

Did I say he was? Point out to me where I said "Lol Anakin > all in lightsaber combat". I asked a question for anyone who has RODV, because that's what I think it says in there. I never gave any definites.

Ah, I thought you were using sarcasm in your post. Nevermind then.

Dork? ...okay? In one step he'd be meeting Dooku.

Oh my god. Calm down. It wasn't one step, he was FIVE FEET away. Maybe more. Even so, if Dooku didn't shoot the Lightning at that point, Dooku probably would have cut off his arm earlier.

Post AOTC Anakin? Lol. Luke would've been killed by Dooku quicker than Anakin got his arm chopped off.

Exactly. Luke was more like early AotC Anakin, AT A MAXIMUM.

Originally posted by Xavius
What the hell are you talking about? Lightning is a different story than a gun. Then I guess Kenobi blocking the Lightning was logical fallacy. Wasn't he few feet away when he blocked it?

Lightning is a different story than a gun? The point of the story was: he didn't have a chance to block it, neither would I.

And, also how is fallacious? He was further away than Anakin, or at the least wasn't running into Dooku.

He had his Lightsaber in his hand. He could have attempted to raise it within that time frame. He was blinded by arrogance . . . Y'know . . . Kind of like he was when Kenobi owned him.

What time frame? One more second and literally his lightsaber would've met Count Dooku's.

Seriously though "owned"? Owned - in the context your using - is the equivalent to "beat the piss out of" I'd say. This, sadly, did not happen as the fight lasts seven minutes cut (as in only consisting of scenes of their fight).

Ironically, so is your reply.

...?

Form III = Defensive form, blocking blaster bolts and such.

Form V (Anakin uses Form V) = Offensive form of Soresu, blocking blaster bolts and such.

And Ataru is proficient at blocking bolts as well. Remember? Yoda did it in RotS?

Blocking Blaster bolts is NOT easy. Blaster bolts aren't very big and either is the Lightsaber. How the hell can you say blocking bolts are easy?

When did I say it was easy for everyone? I didn't. I said "for others it may be, but for Anakin it is not". So, you're twisting my words around.

And btw, didn't Zett friggin' Jukassa do it?

It's getting completely out of hand now. Claiming Lightning is one thing, but Blaster bolts now? No, this is pathetic.

What the hell are you talking about? We've seen Anakin block blaster bolts proficiently, and with apparent ease. How is that pathetic on my part? Because I'm using what I've seen happen? You have a skewed perception of logic then.

Alot of the suspected it. And . . . Uh . . . Ki Adi Mundi. Y'know . . . Council Member, who blocked two or three shots and got f*cked up.

Point being? He was overwhelmed. Is Dooku firing lightning from six different hands? No.

Oh, and tell me - who else wasn't surprised by the attack? "A lot"? Like whom exactly?

Same with Jett.

So he did block blaster bolts? LOL. He's like freakin' ten years old!

And let me guess . . . Out of all the thousands of Force Sensitives, Ki Adi and Jett were the only ones to have time to realize the betrayal, right?

Do you know how many of the Jedi blocked blaster bolts? No? Okay then.

Aayla sure as hell didn't realize it in time.

No, but it did strand certainly in quite the radius. The strands didn't just slap together.

Where'd all that lightning go though? Straight to Kenobi's saber? Straight to Mace's saber? Straight to Yoda's hand? Yeah.

No, but he still lacks skill. Knights aren't Uber powerful Jedi. Anakin was an exception but that doesn't prove he can block Lightning.

And? You're the one that brought up the fact he's still a Knight. Implying that you have to be a master to do such.

Prove it. Seeing as Anakin lost horribly and Kenobi managed to dance on par with him for several minutes, throw some proof my way.

Did you watch the movie? And Anakin didn't lose "horribly". He wasn't outclassed by a huge margin, which is what you keep implying. If that were the case, it wouldn't have lasted seven minutes, and Anakin wouldn't have got at least seven melee hits on Kenobi.

A bunch of Kicks, okay. Kenobi managed to knock him down a few times as well.

Here's where I'm going to say: tell me which parts and what he did? Because he tripped Anakin once, and that was the only time he had Anakin down. Besides their Force push which cancels each other out anyways, and is irrelevant to lightsaber dueling.

And when it came Saber to saber, the two were on par. When Anakin flew into the air, he should have had the Lightsaber skill to hack Kenobi (BTW, when he jumped, they were parallel in grounding) and Kenobi still struck him down.

What? Anakin was in the air, Kenobi was firmly on the ground. How were they even when Anakin didn't even have any grounding?

Not enough. Djem So/Shein is the OFFENSIVE version of the DEFENSIVE Soresu. Kenobi was able to redirect Bolts as well, BTW.

And...? It turns defensive moves into offensive moves. It's defensive as well in that aspect. And Kenobi redirecting blaster bolts is somehow relevant? I'm just saying what Form V does.

And Kenobi wasn't?!? A horrid excuse. Anakin didn't care. He was yearning for power and did not value Kenobi as a brother anymore. Kenobi did. He apparently loved Anakin and would have had a whole ton more emotional trouble than Anakin.

Relevancy of your response? I was putting it into context for Anakin vs. Dooku. I was referencing Kenobi vs. Anakin because he was in a far less stable state than he was against Dooku, hence him making less mistakes versus Dooku. Did you not read what I was replying to?

Dooku was under Palpatines watch and most likely thought the fight would be simple as in AotC. Dooku attempted to purely duel Anakin instead of using the Force on him. Why do you think he isolated Kenobi and virtually challenged Anakin, telling him he has a vista of Darkness within him? In the end, Anakin had performed an unorthodox maneuver by throwing his forearms over Dookus, turning his wrists and cutting his hands right off. Dooku wasn't expecting it and he was outdueled.

And the entire point of this was? Dooku went all out after he realized he couldn't control Anakin. ROTS novelization apparently states as much. Dooku was simply overwhelmed by Anakin's power, and lost. Simple.

When Anakin got kicked into a wall and Dooku decided to drop Kenobi after choking him and taking upon Anakin by using the Force, Anakin would have lost.

Again - huh? I seem to remember Anakin getting up, and kicking Dooku over the railing. Which Force move would he be using?

Yeah, in Lightsaber to Lightsaber. Anakin was physically more fit and in the end proved that by utilizing his much stronger arms to push Dooku's arms down. He was quicker and younger as well and he was fairly powerful at that point.

Doesn't Sidious even acknowledge Anakin as more powerful? Anyways, not sure what this point has to do with anything, but whatever.

Oh my god. Calm down. It wasn't one step, he was FIVE FEET away. Maybe more. Even so, if Dooku didn't shoot the Lightning at that point, Dooku probably would have cut off his arm earlier.

What do you mean it wasn't one step? It would've been a second or even less. He ran in from their position ("I'm taking him now"😉 to getting blasted in two seconds exactly. The gap to close Dooku was less than that. It would've been a second or less before their sabers would've clashed.

Lightning is a different story than a gun? The point of the story was: he didn't have a chance to block it, neither would I.

And, also how is fallacious? He was further away than Anakin, or at the least wasn't running into Dooku.

How was he further away than Anakin? And yeah, he was running. He stopped to block the Lightning.

What time frame? One more second and literally his lightsaber would've met Count Dooku's.

Seriously though "owned"? Owned - in the context your using - is the equivalent to "beat the piss out of" I'd say. This, sadly, did not happen as the fight lasts seven minutes cut (as in only consisting of scenes of their fight).

Both Anakin and Kenobi get ruined in AotC.

And no, If he was five feet away, it would have took two seconds. If not three. Anakin could have thrown his Lightsaber up in an attempt, at least. Dooku raised his hand. What did Anakin THINK he was doing when he raised his hand? Praising Allah?

...?

Nevermind . . .

When did I say it was easy for everyone? I didn't. I said "for others it may be, but for Anakin it is not". So, you're twisting my words around.

And btw, didn't Zett friggin' Jukassa do it?

You:

I saw Anakin block a multitude of blaster bolts. I saw a padawan Kenobi who uses Ataru block blaster bolts. You make it sound as if it's supremely hard

It's damn hard to block Blaster Bolts. It takes skill.

"LOL! DIDN'T ZETT FRIGGIN' JUKASSA LAST LESS THAN TEN SECONDS DOING IT?"

What the hell are you talking about? We've seen Anakin block blaster bolts proficiently, and with apparent ease. How is that pathetic on my part? Because I'm using what I've seen happen? You have a skewed perception of logic then.

Holy shit . . . Anakins form is mean't to deflect Blaster Bolts, for christs SAKE! He was also an exceptional Jedi. Jedi Masters who had the same Form fell to their feet when trying to fend off Clone Bolts. Anakin was good at it because he's good with a Lightsaber. Hello?!

Point being? He was overwhelmed. Is Dooku firing lightning from six different hands? No.

Anakin, Kenobi and Mace and the Jedi who lived on Geonosis were able to block Blaster Bolts and lived and they weren't even Council Members. Well . . . Two hundred of them died, but, y'know, that doesn't prove that Blaster Bolts aren't easy to dodge.

And for the Last time, Lightning is nothing similar to a blaster bolt.

So he did block blaster bolts? LOL. He's like freakin' ten years old!

He died within a matter of seconds, Motoko. Blaster bolts aren't easy to dodge.

Do you know how many of the Jedi blocked blaster bolts? No? Okay then.

Do you know how many were not surprised by the attack? No?

Okay then.

Aayla sure as hell didn't realize it in time.

That's one person.

Where'd all that lightning go though? Straight to Kenobi's saber? Straight to Mace's saber? Straight to Yoda's hand? Yeah.

Straight to Mace's saber and then to Sidious' face. And when Sidious gave mace the final blast, the Lightning wrapped around his body. Same with Anakin when he was struck by Dooku. Yoda was absorbing it, that is why it went to his hand. Notice before Yoda get's hit by Lightning in the beginning how all the strands are seperated?

And? You're the one that brought up the fact he's still a Knight. Implying that you have to be a master to do such.

Here's what you miss: I didn't imply, YOU assumed. I said Anakin most likely lacks the skill. Lightning is not easy to block. Mace proved this and so did Yoda. If someone applies two hands (More strands) and pushes power into the Lightning (Mace flying out of a window) the Lightning could possibly throw Anakin's Lightsaber out of his hand.

Did you watch the movie? And Anakin didn't lose "horribly". He wasn't outclassed by a huge margin, which is what you keep implying. If that were the case, it wouldn't have lasted seven minutes, and Anakin wouldn't have got at least seven melee hits on Kenobi.

That's nice, but Anakin couldn't get a single Lightsaber hit on Kenobi. Anakin still got owned at the end. Losing three limbs IS ownage. That's all there is to it.

Here's where I'm going to say: tell me which parts and what he did? Because he tripped Anakin once, and that was the only time he had Anakin down. Besides their Force push which cancels each other out anyways, and is irrelevant to lightsaber dueling.

Basically, when It came to Lightsaber dueling, Anakin had not outclassed Kenobi ONCE during that fight. They were on par besides Anakins kicking and besides Kenobi chopping him up.

What? Anakin was in the air, Kenobi was firmly on the ground. How were they even when Anakin didn't even have any grounding?

Anakin wasn't coming up on Kenobi when he jumped, he was coming down. He was higher at that point and if he was good enough, he could have outmaneuvered Kenobi and killed him. Especially if he had clashed Sabers. He would have knocked Kenobi down.

Kenobi's form consists of defending until you find a FLAW in your opponents dueling. Anakin had performed a flaw and lost because of it.

And...? It turns defensive moves into offensive moves. It's defensive as well in that aspect. And Kenobi redirecting blaster bolts is somehow relevant? I'm just saying what Form V does.

No. It's an Offensive version. Anything that was defensive in Soresu, was converted into an offensive move with Djem So.

Relevancy of your response? I was putting it into context for Anakin vs. Dooku. I was referencing Kenobi vs. Anakin because he was in a far less stable state than he was against Dooku, hence him making less mistakes versus Dooku. Did you not read what I was replying to?

Did you not read what I said earlier, Motoko? Anakin wanted power and wanted to kill his old master to prove a point. He thought he was more powerful. All he cared about was power at that point. His emotions were nullified by the darkness within him. Kenobi would have had more trouble emotionally seeing as he wasn't corrupted.

And Anakin had just seen his Master choked and crushed under a balcony. He was emotionally stirred. Why do you think he got so pissed off with Dooku?

And the entire point of this was? Dooku went all out after he realized he couldn't control Anakin. ROTS novelization apparently states as much. Dooku was simply overwhelmed by Anakin's power, and lost. Simple.

Sorry, but the novelisation is not Canon. It contradicts the movie in several aspects. Hell, it wasn't even based off of the final draft of the script.

Dooku was outdueled because of Anakin's anger. Dooku also was trying to show off for Palpatine and that was a mistake as well. Near the end when they're right in front of Palpatine is when Dooku attempts to go all out.

Again - huh? I seem to remember Anakin getting up, and kicking Dooku over the railing. Which Force move would he be using?

I seem to remember Anakin sitting in a wall for around twelve seconds watching Kenobi fly across a room and then get crushed under a blacony. THEN he got up and surprised Dooku with the kick.

If Dooku had just choked Kenobi and dropped him, Dooku could have turned around and had at least eight to ten seconds to flock Anakin with the force.

Doesn't Sidious even acknowledge Anakin as more powerful? Anyways, not sure what this point has to do with anything, but whatever.

What does that have to do with what I said? WTF?

What do you mean it wasn't one step? It would've been a second or even less. He ran in from their position ("I'm taking him now"😉 to getting blasted in two seconds exactly. The gap to close Dooku was less than that. It would've been a second or less before their sabers would've clashed.
If Anakin had the time (FIVE FEET AWAY) to raise his Saber to clash, he would've stopped it to block the lightning within that time instead of clashing.

Anakin was blinded.

xavius is a beastly poster! you get the legion of maul awsome amounts of posting award! and Motoko comes in second, he gets a hot chick and a gold star...i wanna be in second place.

Dr. Xavius, I am afraid that I have some bad news . . .

You have been diagnosed with Nai-Syndrome. Nai-Syndrome is a virtual disease that one receives when one deludes oneself into thinking that one's word is absolute law in a debate. The syndrome itself was named after a KMC debator Nai Fohl, who - despite his considerable intellect and debating skills - was the victim of a superiority complex and therefore considered his statements to be simply better than those around him.

There is no cure, and the only lethality is simply a social one.

-----

All joking aside, you don't know if Dooku was just showing off for Palpatine. The script, nor the movie, nor Lucas's commentary supports that claim - therefore it is without logic or support - thus making it an assumption.

Assumptions aren't things that decide a debate. You may have a supported assumption which can offer an explanation as to why something happened, but it has to be supported by proof - not by your mere opinion.

Therefore, your assumption that Dooku was simply showing off for Palpatine is grossly incorrect and has absolutely no bearing on this argument whatsoever because I have read a virtual copy of the official script and I have posted it on several threads concerning this duel. It does not state nor does it imply that Dooku was showing off. Couple this with the fact that the movie doesn't show it, nor does George Lucas comment on it and the fact that you have no other form of proof to justify it - means that it is not fact.

It is possible - but you ought to identify it as only a possibility.

The same goes for Anakin being unable to defend Force lightning due to his aggressive form. It is an unsupported assumption.

Good luck.

Originally posted by Escape81
Dr. Xavius, I am afraid that I have some bad news . . .

You have been diagnosed with Nai-Syndrome. Nai-Syndrome is a virtual disease that one receives when one deludes oneself into thinking that one's word is absolute law in a debate. The syndrome itself was named after a KMC debator Nai Fohl, who - despite his considerable intellect and debating skills - was the victim of a superiority complex and therefore considered his statements to be simply better than those around him.

There is no cure, and the only lethality is simply a social one.

-----

No it's called IKC syndrome...

About the Anakin versus Dooku fight I've found:

"Palpatine has told Dooku. 'I have somebody who I think will be a great Sith Lord and I think we can get him to join us. But we need to test him. So we're going to setup a situation where you fight him. If he gets the best of you, then I'll stop the fight and he'll have passed the test. If you get the best of him, then we'll let him go, and we'll let him stew for a few more years until he's ready.' But behind it, obviously, is Palpatine's real intention: If Anakin is good enough, Anakin can kill Dooku and become Palpatine's new apprentice. But he didn't tell Dooku that."

--George Lucas, The Making Of ROTS; Page 41.

"In this particular case the idea is that Palpatine is testing Anakin to see if he is strong enough to become his new apprentice, and he doesn't tell Dooku what he's actually up to." -- Lucas, ROTS Commentary.

Among other things, but these were the two main things. Now, it's not as if I have access to the commentary or "The Making of ROTS", but if these are correct (and they've given sources so you people can check), and coupled with other various facts - then Anakin beat Dooku fair and square.

So, assuming these are correct, Anakin beats Dooku while Luke watches/is killed off by Dooku. Or after the fight, is killed by Anakin.

Originally posted by Escape81
Dr. Xavius, I am afraid that I have some bad news . . .

You have been diagnosed with Nai-Syndrome. Nai-Syndrome is a virtual disease that one receives when one deludes oneself into thinking that one's word is absolute law in a debate. The syndrome itself was named after a KMC debator Nai Fohl, who - despite his considerable intellect and debating skills - was the victim of a superiority complex and therefore considered his statements to be simply better than those around him.

There is no cure, and the only lethality is simply a social one.

-----

All joking aside, you don't know if Dooku was just showing off for Palpatine. The script, nor the movie, nor Lucas's commentary supports that claim - therefore it is without logic or support - thus making it an assumption.

Assumptions aren't things that decide a debate. You may have a supported assumption which can offer an explanation as to why something happened, but it has to be supported by proof - not by your mere opinion.

Therefore, your assumption that Dooku was simply showing off for Palpatine is grossly incorrect and has absolutely no bearing on this argument whatsoever because I have read a virtual copy of the official script and I have posted it on several threads concerning this duel. It does not state nor does it imply that Dooku was showing off. Couple this with the fact that the movie doesn't show it, nor does George Lucas comment on it and the fact that you have no other form of proof to justify it - means that it is not fact.

It is possible - but you ought to identify it as only a possibility.

The same goes for Anakin being unable to defend Force lightning due to his aggressive form. It is an unsupported assumption.

Good luck.

Yes, you're right. I have no proof for that indeed.

I'm sorry, but saying that Anakin cannot do it because of his aggresive form IS actually a safe assumption, in all reality.

He wasn't able to do it once. So . . . Motoko is assuming that because he is a Knight, he is able to do it. Also because he is stronger and faster.

Aggresive Forms usually lack advanced defensive tactics - because it's primary sufficiency happens to be . . . Offense.

Basically, Motoko's argument was, because Mace and Kenobi could block Lightning, so could Anakin. I thought that was logically ridiculous.

Dooku isolated Kenobi and virtually crushed him. He then decided to full out begin to duel Anakin instead of utilizing the Force against him. Dooku knew Anakin's strength. He told him that himself. I think Dooku could have won that battle if he had used the Force, but unfortunately, his Arrogance overstepped his Logic and he got stomped by Anakin.

Originally posted by Xavius
I'm sorry, but saying that Anakin cannot do it because of his aggresive form IS actually a safe assumption, in all reality.

Considering Mace Windu uses an aggresive form...?

He wasn't able to do it once. So . . . Motoko is assuming that because he is a Knight, he is able to do it.

Wow, bullsh*t? When did I say he'll be able to do it because of his title?

Also because he is stronger and faster.

Overview:

Stronger. Faster. Far more experienced. Less arrogant. More agile.

Aggresive Forms usually lack advanced defensive tactics - because it's primary sufficiency happens to be . . . Offense.

This somehow stopped Mace Windu? Seriously. It turns defensive moves into offensive moves a la Mace Windu reflecting lightning back. Is that not defense turned offense in comparison to Obi-Wan in AOTC?

Basically, Motoko's argument was, because Mace and Kenobi could block Lightning, so could Anakin. I thought that was logically ridiculous.

Really? Because stating that since he got pwned by it in AOTC, he will be pwned by it in ROTS is pretty sound?

Did Kenobi struggle? Was he like "z0mg I c4nt br34th!"? No. He just put up his saber. Wow, maneuver? No. Hard? Not at least as hard as you're making it out to be.

Anyways point is: Anakin is more powerful than Dooku. Dooku went all out, he didn't hold back. The Making of ROTS apparently, and the Revenge of the Sith commentary both support that.

Ani have shown his power, when fighting asaj XD

Considering Mace Windu uses an aggresive form...?

You have to have had to master other forms to use it and Mace has had years and YEARS of experience with Lightsaber usage. He's a Lightsaber dueling prodigy, Motoko.

Wow, bullsh*t? When did I say he'll be able to do it because of his title?

Sorry, I didn't quite elaborate on that much. You said since he had grown stronger in the past years, he could block Lightning. That's ridiculous.

Overview:

Stronger. Faster. Far more experienced. Less arrogant. More agile.

Less arrogant? He was arrogant enough to turn over to the Darkside, Arrogant enough to choke his wife over his hellbent need for power, Arrogant enough to scream and rant when he wasn't granted a rank and Arrogant enough to make such a bold flaw in a duel with Kenobi. Less Arrogant? Bullshit, I say.

This somehow stopped Mace Windu? Seriously. It turns defensive moves into offensive moves a la Mace Windu reflecting lightning back. Is that not defense turned offense in comparison to Obi-Wan in AOTC?

"You have to have had to master other forms to use it and Mace has had years and YEARS of experience with Lightsaber usage. He's a Lightsaber dueling prodigy, Motoko.

Djem So is the offensive version of Soresu. OFFENSIVE. It also happens to be one of the most offensive and aggresive forms. It does not count on advanced defense techniques. Of course, it has some defense, seeing as where it came from, but it doesn't go much further.

Really? Because stating that since he got pwned by it in AOTC, he will be pwned by it in ROTS is pretty sound?

Did Kenobi struggle? Was he like "z0mg I c4nt br34th!"? No. He just put up his saber. Wow, maneuver? No. Hard? Not at least as hard as you're making it out to be.

That's like me saying Dooku had applied no skill in dueling Kenobi and Anakin because he wasn't out of breath or showing harsh faces. Dooku was smiling, so maybe he wasn't using his form at all! *GASP* Maybe he was just moving his saber around!!! That doesn't require skill!!! zOmg!

Kenobi is sufficient in using advanced defensive techniques, seeing as his ENTIRE form is based on Defending and blocking. Jesus.

Anyways point is: Anakin is more powerful than Dooku. Dooku went all out, he didn't hold back. The Making of ROTS apparently, and the Revenge of the Sith commentary both support that.

Of course . . . When it came to Lightsaber combat. I believe Dooku at that point had more Force power and could've won if he did not give into his arrogance and started using the Force to lay the smackdown. Kenobi and Anakin were virtually on par with Force at that point and Dooku layed Kenobi out.

Originally posted by Xavius
You have to have had to master other forms to use it and Mace has had years and YEARS of experience with Lightsaber usage. He's a Lightsaber dueling prodigy, Motoko.

Sorry that you cannot come up with the proof. I cannot just take your word for it that it draws from Soresu. The article in Insider on lightsaber forms doesn't state a thing about Soresu, rather Form V and Form IV. Ataru and Djem So. And Anakin is some kind of speck when it comes to lightsaber abilities? He's superior to Dooku - who's has 70+ years of training under his belt and uses the lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat form. How old is Anakin again? Prodigy? Yeah, I'd say so.

Sorry, I didn't quite elaborate on that much. You said since he had grown stronger in the past years, he could block Lightning. That's ridiculous.

Really? As opposed to he got pwned in AOTC by it, therefore he'll be pwned in ROTS by it? Same concept. Ridiculous.

The fact we see Mace, who uses an aggressive saber form, block lightning from a superior Force user tells me something. The fact AOTC Kenobi was able to block Dooku's lightning effortlessly tells me something. You are seriously just arguing around what we've seen and trying to make it sound as if it's is impossible. It isn't.

Less arrogant?

Yeah.

He was arrogant enough to turn over to the Darkside,

Why'd he do that? Padmé.

Arrogant enough to choke his wife over his hellbent need for power,

And did you miss the reason he turned to the Darkside? The reason he helped Palpatine? It was not for power initially. It was for his wife. Who's that? Padmé.

He choked her why exactly? He wasn't thinking clearly? Yeah, that's pretty obvious. Anakin not thinking straight = arrogant bastard. Anakin thinking straight = not as arrogant.

Either way, he will beat Dooku again. He's done it before, he will do it again.

Arrogant enough to scream and rant when he wasn't granted a rank and Arrogant enough to make such a bold flaw in a duel with Kenobi. Less Arrogant? Bullshit, I say.

Did you forget how Anakin's mind was completely clouded by the their duel? You know, considering the entire reason he went to the Darkside was to save Padmé - yet he ended up choking her out. Thinking clearly? No.

I provided an instance where Anakin wasn't arrogant. And was he thinking clearly? Yes. "This time we take him together." - Kenobi. Anakin replies with "I was about to say that...". Arrogant? No. Who was that about?

Seems he learned from before against Dooku, as he will do again here. He was arrogant against Kenobi. Has he faced Kenobi before? No. He was arrogant with the Council? Like Dooku = Council anyways. But take a look: he was not arrogant and headstrong in his duel against Dooku.

And really, as if Dooku's any better? "Double the pride. Double the fall", and "I have become more powerful than any Jedi. Even you." - sadly, the only one who falls is Dooku, and proves he is not the most powerful. And that will happen in this fight.

"You have to have had to master other forms to use it and Mace has had years and YEARS of experience with Lightsaber usage. He's a Lightsaber dueling prodigy, Motoko.

And other forms would include? Two? Lol. One that is "offensive", the other that obviously provided no use for Qui-Gon Jinn, and was the reason Kenobi switched to Soresu.

Copying and pasting your own words, when it isn't consistent of proof is not going to change anything. I'll just say again, Anakin is how old? Dooku has had 70 plus years of training for his resume. This includes:

a.) Jedi teachings.
b.) Sith teachings.
c.) Using the lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat form.

What happened in the beginning of ROTS?...Refresh me, I can't seem to remember...it's kind of blurry - you see I remember Dooku's head rolling on the ground, and Anakin walking away victorious.

Yeah. Anakin seems to qualify for prodigy too.

Djem So is the offensive version of Soresu. OFFENSIVE. It also happens to be one of the most offensive and aggresive forms.

Yeah? "One of the most"? If it's not the least offensive, it can be one of the most offensive. Point being?

It does not count on advanced defense techniques.

And somehow blocking Force lightning is WHOA! AMAZING! OH SO HARD to do. Look at Kenobi. Please look at him. He just stands there and raises his hand! Oh and Vaapad is aggressive, and you haven't shown proof that it even draws from Soresu. So until you do, you cannot just say it and I'll take your word for it.

As much as I may admire your relentless debating skills, it doesn't change the fact I need proof for that assertion if you want it to be considered valid.

Of course, it has some defense, seeing as where it came from, but it doesn't go much further.

And...?

That's like me saying Dooku had applied no skill in dueling Kenobi and Anakin because he wasn't out of breath or showing harsh faces. Dooku was smiling, so maybe he wasn't using his form at all! *GASP* Maybe he was just moving his saber around!!! That doesn't require skill!!! zOmg!

Actually, it isn't the same at all. Kenobi did it effortlessly. And you have no proof that it was a maneuver, that it's even as hard as you're making it out to be, or anything actually concerning how easy Kenobi put up his saber besides "Soresu!". Sorry pal, Windu has an aggressive form. Anakin is a prodigy as well. Put it together and your assumptions seem to be faltering.

On the other hand, I have facts to counter all of what you said above (Dooku not using dueling skill, whatever), therefore they are not the same:

Considering Dooku isn't smiling at the mercy of Anakin Skywalker. See: Dooku on his knees.

Considering we know Dooku gave it his all against Anakin. See: commentary, novelization, and Making of ROTS.

Considering we know he was using Makashi. See: ROTS novelization; common sense.

No, you go back and say "well here's what I have" (concerning Obi-Wan not breathing hard, or blocking it effortlessly):

Considering Kenobi uses Soresu. A defensive form.

Okay? Aggressive and offensive forms (Vaapad) have been shown to block it as well. That counters what you have.

Kenobi is sufficient in using advanced defensive techniques, seeing as his ENTIRE form is based on Defending and blocking. Jesus.

Will you look at the ease of which Kenobi raises his saber? Is this some kind of advanced defensive technique? No. A saber block from Anakin will defend him against the lightning. Are you saying Anakin can't defend against atttacks? Like seriously. Mace uses an aggressive form, and it even draws from Djem So. Kenobi effortlessly blocked Dooku's lightning. Actually I think Kenobi was still a Jedi Knight, or at least had only gotten the rank of Master that year, not that it matters.

And is Mace proficient in using a defensive form? Your proof? None?

My proof? Vaapad draws from two forms apparently, Ataru and Djem So - offensive forms at that.

Of course . . . When it came to Lightsaber combat. I believe Dooku at that point had more Force power and could've won if he did not give into his arrogance and started using the Force to lay the smackdown. Kenobi and Anakin were virtually on par with Force at that point and Dooku layed Kenobi out. [/B]

Too bad for you Dooku went all out. He did not hold back. Anakin > Dooku.

Wether or not Anakin could block the lightning is errelavent. Dooku has an arsenal of many more force techniques. The fact of the matter is; 1. Anakin was always emotionaly uncontrollable 2. His potential may have been great, but he would never be able to unlock it 3. He may have been good with the sword but his anger often confused and ebbed away at him. Dooku deafeats the Skywalkers.

1. Anakin was always emotionaly uncontrollable

Source, evidence, or proof please.

His potential may have been great, but he would never be able to unlock it

Proof?

He may have been good with the sword but his anger often confused and ebbed away at him. Dooku deafeats the Skywalkers

Since Padme is not involved, RotS Anakin won't get emotionally stressed. Point moot.

Originally posted by Razielim
[b]1. Anakin was always emotionaly uncontrollable

Source, evidence, or proof please.

His potential may have been great, but he would never be able to unlock it

Proof?

He may have been good with the sword but his anger often confused and ebbed away at him. Dooku deafeats the Skywalkers

Since Padme is not involved, RotS Anakin won't get emotionally stressed. Point moot. [/B]

Watch the movie and commentaries.

Watch the movie and commentaries.

I saw and heard both. You made the claim, you need to justify it by sourcing and proving it. Reference something. You don't say "Go watch teh movie!". That's not how intelligent debates work.

Originally posted by Razielim
[b]Watch the movie and commentaries.

I saw and heard both. You made the claim, you need to justify it by sourcing and proving it. Reference something. You don't say "Go watch teh movie!". That's not how intelligent debates work. [/B]

Learn how to quote and I'll continue the debate. . .