Superman can defeat EVERY DBGT character...............combined

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
This "moving a hill" feat thats always talked about with Goku bugs me. When you think about it its impossible to "move a hill". The hill is attached to the planet and the ground, for him to move a hill of that size would require him to also move a good portion of the ground beneath him as well. That equates to a lot of weight. Plus he makes the whole thing explode in the end.

And Dabura is slightly less powerful then Perfect Cell. He could destroy a planet hundreds or thousands of times simultaneously if he wanted. Just because a person doesn't actually do something does not mean that he cant. The absence of proof isn't the proof of absence. Goku never ACTUALLY destroys a planet, but he could effortlessly.

Frieza could easily destroy planets, Dabura makes Frieza seem like a child playing with fireworks in comparison, Cell is stronger then Dabura, Goku is way stronger then Cell, Buu is much stronger then Goku and so forth. Frieza can destroy a planet, we've seen him do it, we know he can do it easily. Therefore everyone who is stronger then him could also do it, but even MORE easily. Just because they never actually do it does not mean they can't. Logic people, it works wonders.

Look how little effort Buu puts into this blast, and look how small it is. Yet it still had enough power to obliterate the planet. Goku is pretty equal to Buu in power, therefore he could do the exact same. Just because he never does does not mean he cant.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAGekwICAVI

Wow, I used to think Superman would win but after seeing that I've changed my mind about it.. If Goku couldn't beat Superman then Buu would mess him up.....

DBZ ftw..

Originally posted by Galvaclaw
Which is nothing compared to Superman. That feat of strength puts him at barely a fraction of Superman's strength.

Read my post properly. I applying qazwsxe's logic to DBZ. He claimed that because Superman couldn't one shot Redemption he must be weak. I replaced Superman and Redemption with Gohan and Dubura. If a new character with no feats fights well against a hero it doesn't mean the hero's weak it means his new opponent is just that strong.

I completely agree with you. Thing is being a planet destroyer isn't enough. Superman can take much more than that. He's taken he full charge of a GL ring to the face before and only had a few bruises. We're not saying DBZ characters aren't super strong, fast, planet busters. We're saying that's not enough to beat Post crisis Superman, Thor, the Silver Surfer or their piers.

Moving the ground means moving thousands upon thousands of tons that he would have had to separate from the planets upper crust, in essence, creating a mini earthquake with sheer physical strength. Literally he would have had to tear a good portion of the ground open, no easy feat at all. There is no way to quantify how much weight Goku would have pushed when he moved that rock formation, but its not anything to shrug about. Superman has some insane strength feats, and undoubtedly Supes is the better "bench presser" of the two, but Goku is much MUCH stronger then what people make him out to be.

Also, the thing is DBZ characters arnt just "planet destroyers" they are much much more then that. At the end of the Frieza saga Super Saiyan Goku possesses power capable of destroying Earth over 800 times. This is where the "useless powerlevels" as they have been called come in handy; to extrapolate what a character is capable of. Vegeta would have destroyed the Earth with his Galick gun had Goku not stopped him with the kamehameha/ x4 kaioken. Vegeta's official Toriyama powerlevel is 18,000 at that point. Meaning a powerlevel of 18,000 becomes the known minimum needed to destroy a planet since we've never seen anyone of a lower power be able to do the same. Goku's powerlevel as a SSJ is 15,000,000. This is stated in the DBZ dianzishu. This means that Goku has the power to destroy 833 earths simultaneously as a SSJ in the Frieza saga. Imagine how much stronger they are by the Cell or Buu sagas.

I'm not arguing for Goku beating Superman, what I'm trying to do is set facts straight and get rid of fanboy BS. Goku is way more powerful then people give him credit for around here. Can he beat Supes? Hard to say. But he's a force to be reckoned no matter who you might be.

Moving the ground means moving thousands upon thousands of tons that he would have had to separate from the planets upper crust, in essence, creating a mini earthquake with sheer physical strength. Literally he would have had to tear a good portion of the ground open, no easy feat at all. There is no way to quantify how much weight Goku would have pushed when he moved that rock formation, but its not anything to shrug about. Superman has some insane strength feats, and undoubtedly Supes is the better "bench presser" of the two, but Goku is much MUCH stronger then what people make him out to be.

Indeed. I'd put Goku at able to be able to lift at least 100,000 tons. Which is very impressive outside of Marvel and DC's top tier.

Also, the thing is DBZ characters arnt just "planet destroyers" they are much much more then that. At the end of the Frieza saga Super Saiyan Goku possesses power capable of destroying Earth over 800 times. This is where the "useless powerlevels" as they have been called come in handy; to extrapolate what a character is capable of. Vegeta would have destroyed the Earth with his Galick gun had Goku not stopped him with the kamehameha/ x4 kaioken. Vegeta's official Toriyama powerlevel is 18,000 at that point. Meaning a powerlevel of 18,000 becomes the known minimum needed to destroy a planet since we've never seen anyone of a lower power be able to do the same. Goku's powerlevel as a SSJ is 15,000,000. This is stated in the DBZ dianzishu. This means that Goku has the power to destroy 833 earths simultaneously as a SSJ in the Frieza saga. Imagine how much stronger they are by the Cell or Buu sagas.

Here's where I use your own clip against you to prove power levels don't scale like that. Goku says that Buu's blast is too powerful for them. Thing he also says it's enough to blow up the planet 10 times. Power level calculations don't work. Not with strength, speed or Ki attacks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAGekwICAVI

I'm not underating Goku I know how powerful he is, I've watched the anime, read the manga played countless games. He just doesn't have what it takes. There are other Anime characters who can do it. I'm sure some of them were named a few pages back.

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
Wow, Frieza could not destroy planet Namek in one attack? He DIDN'T destroy Namek in one attack because he held back too much energy out of fear of hurting himself in the ensuing blast. The problem was he held back too much energy and DIDN'T destroy it instantly. Frieza could have easily destroyed Namek, he was just coward. He has no problems destroying planets that he's not on, but since he was on it he was afraid of causing himself harm. Frieza states this pretty clearly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsPpiOhku4U

Sorry but I go by the canon manga, not the horribly translated dub anime.

Originally posted by qazwsxe
that's what superman fanboys always said, power level is meaningless but they don't have any argument.

power level stands for their feat.

pl 329 destroyed the moon without effort, that was saiyan arc alone.

are you saying that destroying a moon is not a feat.

No, I'm saying that power levels are not logically consistent.

destroying a moon without any effort is harder than lifting tons.

lifting weight is also meaningless.[quote]

No, it shows how strong a character is, as in how much force they are able to exert. Whether it be on the weight, or on someone's body via a physical attack.

[quote]since when does it stated that the pl of 5 has a power of nuclear arsenal.

If 139 can destroy the moon... do the math.

dbz character combined lol, enemies of superman have no power to destroy a moon with no effort, even redemption don't have that kind of power and superman can't beat redemption in one hit.

Asmodel
Blaze
Etrigan
Bizarro
Darkseid
Imperiex
Gog
Anti-Monitor
Superboy Prime
Mongul
Mxyzptlk
Brainiac
Zod
Eradicator
Cyborg
Doomsday

I could go on....

it's useless if you can't quantify or how much stronger superman becomes in each issue.

No we can't. But we can set benchmarks using feats.

it's useless? most of his enemies in each issue is so much weak compare to dbz.

You want to take a look at the list again?

how many leaps and how many bounds gauge it?

Now you're not even making sense.

superman prime was god, is bullshit.

Is that why he sundipped for 15,000 years (when a sundip of just a few minutes allowed Post - Crisis Superman enough power to push War World across the solar system against the full force of its engines which were powered by Imperiex who had the power of the Big Bang plus all of the galaxies he had devoured?)

Superman Prime didn't ressurect Lois with his own power. He ressurected Lois by using a DNA sample with the HELP of of a 5th dimensional imp, Lzyxm Ltpkz, they got from Solaris's core. And as for recreating Krypton, Hourman III used the worlogog to travel back in time before Krypton exploded and create a duplicate of the planet WITH the worlogog in order to recreate Krypton, so Superman Prime has basically nothing to do with the recreation of Krypton.

And your point is....?

dbzgt combined is biased, superman always have trouble fighting a villain who don't even have the power to destroy a moon in a single hit.

You know there are more ways to be dangerous that raw firepower. I could name tons of people who can't destroy a planet or moon but could easily beat Superman or the entire DBZ cast.

person like you makes me hate superman so much.

Don't hate him because he beats your favorite characters. Just accept the facts.

superman fanboys are biased.....

Try actually answering my arguments.

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
Yes you are right. Powerlevels are useful when used with a corresponding feat.

For instance, Vegeta would have destroyed the earth with his Galick gun when he was fighting Goku in the saiyan saga. His powerlevel (given by Toriyama) is 18,000. This means that the known minimum for destroying an earth sized planet is 18,000 at least. From there we can extrapolate what other stronger characters are capable of preforming. For instance, Goku's Kaio Ken power while fighting Ginyu was 180,000, so he was 10x stronger then Vegeta, which means Goku has the known power needed to destroy 10 earth sized planets simultaneously. Or that Frieza's full powerlevel is 12,000,000, which means that Frieza has the power needed to destroy 667 earth sized planets simultaneously and so on. Powerlevels DO have meaning, it just requires some math and some logic.

Wrong. If that was true, then the farmer Raditz met would have had more power than a nuclear arsenal.

Furthermore, they have no feats to back that up, so such extrapolation is unfounded.

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
Moving the ground means moving thousands upon thousands of tons that he would have had to separate from the planets upper crust, in essence, creating a mini earthquake with sheer physical strength. Literally he would have had to tear a good portion of the ground open, no easy feat at all. There is no way to quantify how much weight Goku would have pushed when he moved that rock formation, but its not anything to shrug about. Superman has some insane strength feats, and undoubtedly Supes is the better "bench presser" of the two, but Goku is much MUCH stronger then what people make him out to be.

Two problems:

1. That's not what happened in the scene.

2. That scene was filler and is thus non - canon.

Also, the thing is DBZ characters arnt just "planet destroyers" they are much much more then that. At the end of the Frieza saga Super Saiyan Goku possesses power capable of destroying Earth over 800 times.

Prove it.

This is where the "useless powerlevels" as they have been called come in handy; to extrapolate what a character is capable of. Vegeta would have destroyed the Earth with his Galick gun had Goku not stopped him with the kamehameha/ x4 kaioken.

Or so he claimed.

Vegeta's official Toriyama powerlevel is 18,000 at that point. Meaning a powerlevel of 18,000 becomes the known minimum needed to destroy a planet since we've never seen anyone of a lower power be able to do the same. Goku's powerlevel as a SSJ is 15,000,000. This is stated in the DBZ dianzishu. This means that Goku has the power to destroy 833 earths simultaneously as a SSJ in the Frieza saga. Imagine how much stronger they are by the Cell or Buu sagas.

And the farmer could nuke the US. Get over it.

I'm not arguing for Goku beating Superman, what I'm trying to do is set facts straight and get rid of fanboy BS. Goku is way more powerful then people give him credit for around here. Can he beat Supes? Hard to say. But he's a force to be reckoned no matter who you might be.

Only if you use unfounded speculation.

What the hell is this farmer nuking the US BS? Where is this coming from?

I don't have time to get to all your points right now. But I will later.

Power level of 139 destroys the moon - power level of 5 can wipe out most life on earth, if we take your methodology to be correct.

I have tried to argue the points for either side and it is so utterly ridiculous to argue for either side because the physics in each universe is so variable that both realities should be so unstable that a new universe is created with a different set of stable physics, thereby destroying the currently existing universe in each respective reality. (Either study theoretical physics for a while or get crash course in some of the theories by going to iop.org) Don’t forget, these comics were made by writers, not logical geniuses that can create perfect stories and who are also aware of all the laws of physics or potential interactions during powerful sequences.

In other words, it is fantasy. GASP!!!

You cannot compare the two. The only way this will ever be settled is if writers from DC comics and Akira Toriyama get together and decide whom they want to win in a fight. Even then it could not and would not be accepted by fans of either side because those fans would have tons of "canonical" evidence to contradict this scenario. (Despite the fact that they would not use that same canonical evidence to disprove what took place in other situations in their comics/manga...thereby making anything that happens questionable for either universe.) Does this mean that all of you arguing these points would have to...dare I say...admit that this is for entertainment?

You all lose the argument for being so stupid as to think it is arguable to begin with. You all fail. How does it feel to fail after 107 pages of pointless argument?

On the other hand, I think that jasofisc did a great job arguing the DBZ side. There were some others who did a really great job arguing the superman side but I cannot remember your names.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I have tried to argue the points for either side and it is so utterly ridiculous to argue for either side because the physics in each universe is so variable that both realities should be so unstable that a new universe is created with a different set of stable physics, thereby destroying the currently existing universe in each respective reality. (Either study theoretical physics for a while or get crash course in some of the theories by going to iop.org) Don’t forget, these comics were made by writers, not logical geniuses that can create perfect stories and who are also aware of all the laws of physics or potential interactions during powerful sequences.

In other words, it is fantasy. GASP!!!

You cannot compare the two. The only way this will ever be settled is if writers from DC comics and Akira Toriyama get together and decide whom they want to win in a fight. Even then it could not and would not be accepted by fans of either side because those fans would have tons of "canonical" evidence to contradict this scenario. (Despite the fact that they would not use that same canonical evidence to disprove what took place in other situations in their comics/manga...thereby making anything that happens questionable for either universe.) Does this mean that all of you arguing these points would have to...dare I say...admit that this is for entertainment?

You all lose the argument for being so stupid as to think it is arguable to begin with. You all fail. How does it feel to fail after 107 pages of pointless argument?

On the other hand, I think that jasofisc did a great job arguing the DBZ side. There were some others who did a really great job arguing the superman side but I cannot remember your names.

So then go away if you don't care.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
So then go away if you don't care.

You did not read anything in my post. Reread it and then try again.

It's standard unimaginative crap where you can't understand logical ways to compare two different universes. If you don't like it, then don't participate. It's that simple.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
It's standard unimaginative crap where you can't understand logical ways to compare two different universes. If you don't like it, then don't participate. It's that simple.

1. If you are going to compare two different universes (both of which have illogical physics, even in their own universes) using real world physics and try to justify them as comparable then your argument fails fundamentally; "it's that simple".

2. I never said I didn't like it; I submit to you that I said the opposite about this subject. (Which is why I said to reread my post.) If you ever get married, your wife will run you in circles when you argue. (Trust me.)

Now if you wanted to, you could logically try to compare a DC comic character to a Marvel comic character...

Originally posted by dadudemon
[B]1. If you are going to compare two different universes (both of which have illogical physics, even in their own universes) using real world physics and try to justify them as comparable then your argument fails fundamentally; "it's that simple".

We're doing just fine, thank you very much. If you're tired of complaining, then leave.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
We're doing just fine, thank you very much. If you're tired of complaining, then leave.

I just thought of something hilarious, Goku doing the nasty with his wife Chi Chi. He grunts and growls for ten minutes and then turns SSJ4 as he splooges and his wife launches across the room. That means the Goku can beat Superman in a fight with no problem.

I win...

or how about this one...

Superman has buns of steel, so he can beat Goku. (He is the man of Steel...heeeelllooooo!!!) Goku would also lose to the Marvel comic character The Thing because The Thing has rock hard abs.

On a serious note, you are right dude, I was being a party pooper.

I apologize.

what do you mean that the pl of 5 can wipe out the world?

power level is about ki and combat speed

remember when goku and piccolo removed the weight.

when goku hides his ki in namek arc, it was only 5000 but unsuppressed. it was 90000

Originally posted by Endless Mike
No, I'm saying that power levels are not logically consistent.

If 139 can destroy the moon... do the math.

Asmodel
Blaze
Etrigan
Bizarro
Darkseid
Imperiex
Gog
Anti-Monitor
Superboy Prime
Mongul
Mxyzptlk
Brainiac
Zod
Eradicator
Cyborg
Doomsday

I could go on....

No we can't. But we can set benchmarks using feats.

You want to take a look at the list again?

Now you're not even making sense.

Is that why he sundipped for 15,000 years (when a sundip of just a few minutes allowed Post - Crisis Superman enough power to push War World across the solar system against the full force of its engines which were powered by Imperiex who had the power of the Big Bang plus all of the galaxies he had devoured?)

And your point is....?

You know there are more ways to be dangerous that raw firepower. I could name tons of people who can't destroy a planet or moon but could easily beat Superman or the entire DBZ cast.

Don't hate him because he beats your favorite characters. Just accept the facts.

Try actually answering my arguments.

excuse me did i said before that 139 can destroy moon, but 139 is only his base pl which means when he used the maximum power kame hame ha his pl increased.

and what is your proof that pl of 5 can nuke the us?

i said, destroyed the moon without effort.

mr. myxptlk is excluded because he is not really a superman's villain.

i'm not saying that goku is unbeatable but if there someone who can beat goku it's not superman.

i'm starting to hate superman because of biased fanboy like you.

i know a bunch of characters that can beat dbz and i dont hate them because they are not biased like you.

question: did AT point out in the dbz manga that an ordinary human with a pl of 5 has a nuke power? take note ordinary human with a shotgun

saiyan arc-vegeta shows he can destroy the earth in one hit.

if the increased is not linear, why would he afraid of freeza with a pl of 530000

or raditz arc-piccolo should also have a hard time destroying the moon like roshi but piccolo destroyed it with no effort which means it's linear

pl of 5 have a power of a nuke is non-sense.

it only point out human with no power which means the pl of 5 is a normal human

Originally posted by Galvaclaw
Which is nothing compared to Superman. That feat of strength puts him at barely a fraction of Superman's strength.

Read my post properly. I applying qazwsxe's logic to DBZ. He claimed that because Superman couldn't one shot Redemption he must be weak. I replaced Superman and Redemption with Gohan and Dubura. If a new character with no feats fights well against a hero it doesn't mean the hero's weak it means his new opponent is just that strong.

I completely agree with you. Thing is being a planet destroyer isn't enough. Superman can take much more than that. He's taken he full charge of a GL ring to the face before and only had a few bruises. We're not saying DBZ characters aren't super strong, fast, planet busters. We're saying that's not enough to beat Post crisis Superman, Thor, the Silver Surfer or their piers.

you don't need feats in dbz if you're ki is higher or bigger like doubler. this is not DC you know.

in dc/marvel you need feats to prove you are worthy.

superman can't take a full charge of thousand times planet buster attack because redemption's one-hit attack didn't even danger the whole planet and superman have a hard time to beat him.