Originally posted by leonheartmm
cell was the final evolution of many beings, each able to destroy far more than a planet, it makes sense that he could destroy solar systems. even the individual androids were far beyond simlpy planet destroying level. whose making up feats????????????????????? i was referring to the fight betweem frieza and goku. and that was before goku had even mastered the super sayin 1 transformation. u do remember that even the weakest super sayin trunks was able to easily deflect 20 times more energy than was required to destroy namek leisurely with a single hand{when the half bionic frieza tried to destroy earth before goku landed}. super sayin 2s are EXPONENTIALLY more powerful and gohan was definately at the kind of level that cel mentioned. problem is, even though SUNBATHED superman "MIGHT" HAVE HAD A SMALL CHANCE AGAINST GOHAN THEN, OR ENERGY SUPERMAN MIGHT HAVE HAD A CHANCE, THE CREATOR OF THE FORUM SAID "DRAGON BALL GT CHARACTERS" which is absolutely ridiculous. supersayin 4 goku is SO far beyond even skyfather level that its not evenm funny, hes many many many MANY times more powerful than super sayin 2, plus mystical gohan, not to mention GOGETO. it is ridiculous to claim that ANY superman other than MAYBE superman 1 million, superman prime could stand a chance against even super sayin 2 or 3. the ONLY superman who cud take on gogeto is precrisis superman.im not simply saying all his feats which i dont LIKE are PIS, im saying theyr INCONSISTANT, superman has destroyed moons when he was ENRAGED. he has CLAIMED{if i turn the tables here} to punch the earth out of orbit. ALL of his beyond lightspeed feats are PIS seeing by the fact that officially he POSITIVELY can approach near lightspeed at best and ALWAYS, loses to flash when flash is in the physical worl{non speed force realm} and in the physical world, flash can at best go at lightspeed. the megido warhead is discrepent as superman has been constantly hurt/put down by beings who dont even have planet shattering strength. and a galaxy's destruction requires trillions of times that energy. ofcourse discrepancies like that are bound to happen, but to get a true guage of the characters abilities, you look at high end feats, low end feaths, and everything in between and get an average power level. and im sorry, normal post crisis superman, can at BEST go up against pre super sayin goku. with speed blitz, he MIGHT stand a chance against super sayin 1 goku before he learnt teleportation or mastery over his transformation. but thas it. goku still wont be LOSING.
Cell wasn't stronger then Buu and even Kid Buu had to go from planet to planet destroying planets destroying himself in the process. They knew Kid Buu was more powerful than they were and had the healing ability yet they didn't even think Buu survived the planet explosion.
They don't have that high of durability and can be hurt by punches that are nothing to Superman. Nobody in DBZ has the physical strength of Superman yet they all get hurt by punches from their enemies.
As for IT...sure it's Instant but he doesn't fight that fast. Superman has him in fighting speed and speed in general. Gokou would teleport behind him, go to punch and Superman would already be gone or had punched him. Not that Superman would need to move since Gokou doesn't have the power to physically hurt him. Or if Gokou teleported and blasted Superman could dodge that also.
They get more powerful energy at each level of Super Saiyan but how far their energy goes up isn't how far their strength or durability goes up. Even if Gokou's blast could hurt him he's never shown the speed to dodge an attack from Superman nor the durability to withstand such a punch.
As for Superman splitting a moon enraged. He's not the Hulk he doesn't get stronger when he's mad. And as for him going from Earth to Sun being PIS that's hardly his best speed feat. He's traveled Galaxies in seconds. Once was to save Kyle, the other was to get back to Earth when Jimmy activated a signal for him to come. The their is the whole Saturn when enraged thing.
And if Cell could destroy the galaxy and Buu could then why did Vegeta's USSJ Final Flash just fly off into space after taking a large chunk out of Cell, or Gohan's SSJ2 Kamehameha fly off into space and everything is fine, or Super Buu's attack get kicked into space, exploding leaving everything fine? If Cell could destroy the universe just by blowing himself up before he was even at SSJ2 levels surely a full powered SSJ2 Gohan's attack would be able to. Or Super Buu's attack, or Even Kid Buu's attack. Though none of them did much.
Originally posted by Kento
Cell wasn't stronger then Buu and even Kid Buu had to go from planet to planet destroying planets destroying himself in the process. They knew Kid Buu was more powerful than they were and had the healing ability yet they didn't even think Buu survived the planet explosion.They don't have that high of durability and can be hurt by punches that are nothing to Superman. Nobody in DBZ has the physical strength of Superman yet they all get hurt by punches from their enemies.
As for IT...sure it's Instant but he doesn't fight that fast. Superman has him in fighting speed and speed in general. Gokou would teleport behind him, go to punch and Superman would already be gone or had punched him. Not that Superman would need to move since Gokou doesn't have the power to physically hurt him. Or if Gokou teleported and blasted Superman could dodge that also.
They get more powerful energy at each level of Super Saiyan but how far their energy goes up isn't how far their strength or durability goes up. Even if Gokou's blast could hurt him he's never shown the speed to dodge an attack from Superman nor the durability to withstand such a punch.
As for Superman splitting a moon enraged. He's not the Hulk he doesn't get stronger when he's mad. And as for him going from Earth to Sun being PIS that's hardly his best speed feat. He's traveled Galaxies in seconds. Once was to save Kyle, the other was to get back to Earth when Jimmy activated a signal for him to come. The their is the whole Saturn when enraged thing.
And if Cell could destroy the galaxy and Buu could then why did Vegeta's USSJ Final Flash just fly off into space after taking a large chunk out of Cell, or Gohan's SSJ2 Kamehameha fly off into space and everything is fine, or Super Buu's attack get kicked into space, exploding leaving everything fine? If Cell could destroy the universe just by blowing himself up before he was even at SSJ2 levels surely a full powered SSJ2 Gohan's attack would be able to. Or Super Buu's attack, or Even Kid Buu's attack. Though none of them did much.
the only thing I want to comment on is the kid buu going from planet to planet blowing him self up when he would destroy galaxies. that was never ever stated. Goku therorized that's what kid buu was going to do to earth when they were fighting him. more superman side bias. reading into what you want from the animi and manga
oh and as for your questions at the end of your rant it's because DBZ characters can control the energy they put forth. (I know it's impossible but that's dbz for you and the only way things like that can make any since at all.)
this is an honest question but don't dc and marvel characters need to go into sub space inorder to go faster then light because it's a tad more realistic then dbz or is it just as ridculus where they are just speeding up father then light (which is impossible for matter with out making somekind of specialized space to move in)
Well Flash can use the speed force to cancel relativistic effects which means he doesn't really have a ceiling for his speed. As for Superman pick a science fiction method of faster than light travel and go for it. There's plenty about. I like to think he warps space by manipulating gravitons. Which is one of the theories of how he flies.
Also no Z fighter can travel faster than light without instant transmission.
Originally posted by Galvaclaw
Well Flash can use the speed force to cancel relativistic effects which means he doesn't really have a ceiling for his speed. As for Superman pick a science fiction method of faster than light travel and go for it. There's plenty about. I like to think he warps space by manipulating gravitons. Which is one of the theories of how he flies.Also no Z fighter can travel faster than light without instant transmission.
yeah pretty much all of them can and it's been proven several times but you guys just do what you claim I do with superman high end feats and try to explain them away. (that's fighting speed for the z fighters not travel speed)
I like your idea about superman's FTL speed it makes a lot more since the what apears to be most writters lose grasp of anything of the real world.
Originally posted by jasofisc
the only thing I want to comment on is the kid buu going from planet to planet blowing him self up when he would destroy galaxies. that was never ever stated. Goku therorized that's what kid buu was going to do to earth when they were fighting him. more superman side bias. reading into what you want from the animi and mangaoh and as for your questions at the end of your rant it's because DBZ characters can control the energy they put forth. (I know it's impossible but that's dbz for you and the only way things like that can make any since at all.)
No, what makes sense is that they can only use planet destroying attacks if the spend a while charging up first. Otherwise why is it specifically mentioned and pointed out whenever someone is preparing a planet destroying attack, if every attack is that powerful?
yeah pretty much all of them can and it's been proven several times but you guys just do what you claim I do with superman high end feats and try to explain them away. (that's fighting speed for the z fighters not travel speed)
Prove it to me. If your correct I'll believe you. Afterall I was a Dragonball Z fan before I was a Superman fan and have argued for Goku beating Superman in the past. Can you do it without claiming power levels? We've shown that's flawed. Or the infamous Raditz dub line?
Lets remember now, moving faster than the human eye requires not even a fraction of light speed.
Originally posted by Endless Mike
No, what makes sense is that they can only use planet destroying attacks if the spend a while charging up first. Otherwise why is it specifically mentioned and pointed out whenever someone is preparing a planet destroying attack, if every attack is that powerful?
when frizza destroyed vegeta he did it with easy and with one finger also the kid buu palimnary planet destroying blast was shot just like a normal blast. so it's both
Originally posted by jasofisc
when frizza destroyed vegeta he did it with easy and with one finger
Which was only shown in the filler. In the canon manga it was stated that he destroyed planet Vegeta, but never shown.
also the kid buu palimnary planet destroying blast was shot just like a normal blast. so it's both
And that one was stated to be planet destroying by Vegeta and Goku, and they were worried about it, unlike 99.9999% of every random blast that anyone fires.
Originally posted by Galvaclaw
Prove it to me. If your correct I'll believe you. Afterall I was a Dragonball Z fan before I was a Superman fan and have argued for Goku beating Superman in the past. Can you do it without claiming power levels? We've shown that's flawed. Or the infamous Raditz dub line?Lets remember now, moving faster than the human eye requires not even a fraction of light speed.
well there is the part in the sayan saga when they are fighting saiba men and gohan can't see them and piccolo mentions it's because they are moving too fast and the only way gohan and follow the fight is by see the light given off their bodies in a new way mentioned by piccolo. to apear invisble when someone is watching you in the open sky is going faster then light can keep up with which is what supes does when he goes invisble doesn't he. Week I know but that's how it's suppose to be. picccolo may have even said that they were going faster then light i'm not sure. also you have not dis proven the power level thing at all. you use the rachi example to show how off it is but they can encrease their power level by focusing so we don't know what his power level when he destroyed the moon was (how many moons does dbz have because I can thing of two that they have destroyed)
not that i'm using the radit's thing as support but their beams have been shown to be as fast as light (which gives more support to the bullet time thing people have argued on this forum before) when they are not seen in the perspective of a dbz character. so the fact that piccolo had already fired the blast before radits doged it still give evidence to light speed. but that like so many other thing in dbz get's ignored on this thread.
Originally posted by Endless Mike
Which was only shown in the filler. In the canon manga it was stated that he destroyed planet Vegeta, but never shown.And that one was stated to be planet destroying by Vegeta and Goku, and they were worried about it, unlike 99.9999% of every random blast that anyone fires.
you could be very well right but it doesn't make since how kid buu and super buu could make planet destroying blast with little effort and then but a lot of effort into a blast that does little dammage. my opinon is that dbz characters can tell when someone is aiming for them and aiming to destoy the planet. and all of it is very unlogical anyway.
Originally posted by jasofisc
well there is the part in the sayan saga when they are fighting saiba men and gohan can't see them and piccolo mentions it's because they are moving too fast and the only way gohan and follow the fight is by see the light given off their bodies in a new way mentioned by piccolo. to apear invisble when someone is watching you in the open sky is going faster then light can keep up with which is what supes does when he goes invisble doesn't he. Week I know but that's how it's suppose to be. picccolo may have even said that they were going faster then light i'm not sure. also you have not dis proven the power level thing at all. you use the rachi example to show how off it is but they can encrease their power level by focusing so we don't know what his power level when he destroyed the moon was (how many moons does dbz have because I can thing of two that they have destroyed)not that i'm using the radit's thing as support but their beams have been shown to be as fast as light (which gives more support to the bullet time thing people have argued on this forum before) when they are not seen in the perspective of a dbz character. so the fact that piccolo had already fired the blast before radits doged it still give evidence to light speed. but that like so many other thing in dbz get's ignored on this thread.
it's not that they are moving faster then the human eye it's that they are moving fast then normal sight and even detect and even super human powered indivduals can see.
Originally posted by Galvaclaw
Prove it to me. If your correct I'll believe you. Afterall I was a Dragonball Z fan before I was a Superman fan and have argued for Goku beating Superman in the past. Can you do it without claiming power levels? We've shown that's flawed. Or the infamous Raditz dub line?Lets remember now, moving faster than the human eye requires not even a fraction of light speed.
in open proximty you can see super sonic planes pass by and i'm betting you could even see object coming at you that were even faster then that. it's in close spaces and up close being faster then the human eye is like that.
Originally posted by jasofisc
[B]well there is the part in the sayan saga when they are fighting saiba men and gohan can't see them and piccolo mentions it's because they are moving too fast and the only way gohan and follow the fight is by see the light given off their bodies in a new way mentioned by piccolo.
No, what he said is that they were moving too fast to track with his eyes, so he should sense their ki instead. Rorouni Kenshin characters move so fast people can't see them as well, does that make them lightspeed?
to apear invisble when someone is watching you in the open sky is going faster then light
Absolute bullshit. You just have to be moving too fast for the observer's brain to process the movement. Changing speeds and direction often helps as well.
can keep up with which is what supes does when he goes invisble doesn't he.
Superman has confirmed lightspeed feats, which are confirmed by measuring the distance and time it took him to reach places.
Week I know but that's how it's suppose to be. picccolo may have even said that they were going faster then light i'm not sure.
Dub error. The post you quoted even told you about this.
also you have not dis proven the power level thing at all. you use the rachi example to show how off it is but they can encrease their power level by focusing so we don't know what his power level when he destroyed the moon was (how many moons does dbz have because I can thing of two that they have destroyed)
Kami and Mr. Popo brought it back. Furthermore, power levels are meaningless for comparing things like speed, physical strength, destructive power, etc. because the evidence shows that they simply don't scale that way.
not that i'm using the radit's thing as support but their beams have been shown to be as fast as light
No they have not.
(which gives more support to the bullet time thing people have argued on this forum before) when they are not seen in the perspective of a dbz character. so the fact that piccolo had already fired the blast before radits doged it still give evidence to light speed.
That blast was nowhere near lightspeed. Normal humans in the DBU can see and track ki blasts.
but that like so many other thing in dbz get's ignored on this thread.
No, you're just lying and misrepresenting the evidence.
Originally posted by jasofisc
you could be very well right but it doesn't make since how kid buu and super buu could make planet destroying blast with little effort and then but a lot of effort into a blast that does little dammage.
Go figure. The point is that you can't assume like that. Gladiator has destroyed planets with his punches, should we assume that every punch he throws is potentially planet - destroying?
my opinon is that dbz characters can tell when someone is aiming for them and aiming to destoy the planet. and all of it is very unlogical anyway.
If they had the power to destroy the planet in a blast it wouldn't matter where they were aiming, as the explosion would destroy the planet anyway (unless it was deflected off into space).
Originally posted by jasofisc
it's not that they are moving faster then the human eye it's that they are moving fast then normal sight and even detect and even super human powered indivduals can see.
Wrong. If a gnat is buzzing around you it can be very hard to see and even seem to become invisible. That doesn't mean it's lightspeed. Are Rorouni Kenshin, Naruto, Bleach, and One Piece characters all suddenly lightspeed too?
Originally posted by jasofisc
in open proximty you can see super sonic planes pass by
Because they're huge compared to you, and they're travelling in a straight line so you can predict their path. If there was a supersonic plane the size of a human that passed a few feet in front of you you wouldn't see it.
and i'm betting you could even see object coming at you that were even faster then that. it's in close spaces and up close being faster then the human eye is like that.
Do some research before spouting off crap like this.
I suggest you start here: http://www.shininghalf.com/soujiro/shukuchi.html
Originally posted by leonheartmm
cell was the final evolution of many beings, each able to destroy far more than a planet, it makes sense that he could destroy solar systems. even the individual androids were far beyond simlpy planet destroying level. whose making up feats????????????????????? i was referring to the fight betweem frieza and goku. and that was before goku had even mastered the super sayin 1 transformation. u do remember that even the weakest super sayin trunks was able to easily deflect 20 times more energy than was required to destroy namek leisurely with a single hand{when the half bionic frieza tried to destroy earth before goku landed}. super sayin 2s are EXPONENTIALLY more powerful and gohan was definately at the kind of level that cel mentioned. problem is, even though SUNBATHED superman "MIGHT" HAVE HAD A SMALL CHANCE AGAINST GOHAN THEN, OR ENERGY SUPERMAN MIGHT HAVE HAD A CHANCE, THE CREATOR OF THE FORUM SAID "DRAGON BALL GT CHARACTERS" which is absolutely ridiculous. supersayin 4 goku is SO far beyond even skyfather level that its not evenm funny, hes many many many MANY times more powerful than super sayin 2, plus mystical gohan, not to mention GOGETO. it is ridiculous to claim that ANY superman other than MAYBE superman 1 million, superman prime could stand a chance against even super sayin 2 or 3. the ONLY superman who cud take on gogeto is precrisis superman.im not simply saying all his feats which i dont LIKE are PIS, im saying theyr INCONSISTANT, superman has destroyed moons when he was ENRAGED. he has CLAIMED{if i turn the tables here} to punch the earth out of orbit. ALL of his beyond lightspeed feats are PIS seeing by the fact that officially he POSITIVELY can approach near lightspeed at best and ALWAYS, loses to flash when flash is in the physical worl{non speed force realm} and in the physical world, flash can at best go at lightspeed. the megido warhead is discrepent as superman has been constantly hurt/put down by beings who dont even have planet shattering strength. and a galaxy's destruction requires trillions of times that energy. ofcourse discrepancies like that are bound to happen, but to get a true guage of the characters abilities, you look at high end feats, low end feaths, and everything in between and get an average power level. and im sorry, normal post crisis superman, can at BEST go up against pre super sayin goku. with speed blitz, he MIGHT stand a chance against super sayin 1 goku before he learnt teleportation or mastery over his transformation. but thas it. goku still wont be LOSING.
wait, so ss4 goku can blow up solar systems but is also blinded by light as bright as the sun, almost drowned, barely moved a building, and got his leg stabbed by a FLAGPOLE