Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
The funny thing about the "power level" thing is that Blackrock came back and was powered by "Billions of sources AMPLIFIED" the next time... and still lost..although it was a much better fight.DBZpower levels sound more like computer mhz..where a 600 mhz pc is not twice as fast as a 300 mhz pc when benchmarked.
That actually helps it make more sense except on the low end of power levels.
Why can a power level of over 100 but less than 200 destroy the moon but a power level of 5 (The farmer.) is just an average joe? What accounts for the gigantic leap of "power"? Why is it not then logical up through ever increasing power levels?
It seems like an ascension is just enough to destroy the current plot's enemy. I think in the DBZ Universe, the ascension only served to further the plot so that children could say, "Wows, Goku is like teh bset!!!11!!" the ascensions really just allowed them to beat an enemy. If DBZ flowed logically, then every time a fight happened after SSJ1, then they would have to warp to a different reality that could handle that kind of strength like the Hypbolic Time Chamber or something. (A vast un-destroyable infinite space.)
Weren't Freiza and Goku fighting on such a powerful level that is was causing the planet to fall apart? (Yes, I am aware that Freiza shot a blast at the planets core to destroy it but later, I think someone says they are tearing the planet apart because they are so powerful.) This serves only to further the illogicality of the DBZ universe.
Originally posted by dadudemon
That actually helps it make more sense except on the low end of power levels.Why can a power level of over 100 but less than 200 destroy the moon but a power level of 5 (The farmer.) is just an average joe? What accounts for the gigantic leap of "power"? Why is it not then logical up through ever increasing power levels?
It seems like an ascension is just enough to destroy the current plot's enemy. I think in the DBZ Universe, the ascension only served to further the plot so that children could say, "Wows, Goku is like teh bset!!!11!!" the ascensions really just allowed them to beat an enemy. If DBZ flowed logically, then every time a fight happened after SSJ1, then they would have to warp to a different reality that could handle that kind of strength like the Hypbolic Time Chamber or something. (A vast un-destroyable infinite space.)
Weren't Freiza and Goku fighting on such a powerful level that is was causing the planet to fall apart? (Yes, I am aware that Freiza shot a blast at the planets core to destroy it but later, I think someone says they are tearing the planet apart because they are so powerful.) This serves only to further the illogicality of the DBZ universe.
nice assessment of dbz and i agree very very illogical
Originally posted by Endless Mike
No, I read the fight in the manga, the planet wasn't in danger of being destroyed until Frieza fired that blast at its core. It was mentioned earlier that Frieza had the power to destroy the planet, but it was never stated that the planet was actually in danger until Frieza attacked it.
I am referring to afterwards...after frieza had already shot the planet's core. It is a moot point though. If it was said...it only further's my point of the character's powers not flowing logically.
Originally posted by AvalonofthewindI'm not really sure how it does. I'm not trying to downplay anything, I'm just keeping things in perspective.
[BAmbient energy..the stuff Goku has begged for? Except that it takes ages for him to get it?
Power level in the millions? Sound familiar? Go ahead...try to downplay it because it destroys your silly "argument." [/B]
Originally posted by Endless Mike
Except that power levels are meaningless in any actual comparison of ability, as has already been shown. Goku's feats at SSJ3 don't put him at all that much greater than his feats at SSJ1 do, and his feats at SSJ4 make him seem actually weaker than SSJ1 (considering GT is non - canon crap, this is not surprising).
His feats at SSJ3 are subject to what we like to call.. A PLOT HOLE. 😐
Again, Akira stated full well that he wrote himself into a plot hole when he overpowered his characters at an early period in the series. But if you're going to ignore the basic concept of power levels and what they mean to the series then you're only solidifying my reasoning for abonding this argument earlier (hint: it has nothing to do with the pro-supes side having a good argument) . You're practically robbing DBZ of their powers by calling PL's worthless.. 😬
Originally posted by fanboy 1988
Wow, maybe I used to many big words in my first statement.. First off you need to start using spell check.. second, I never denied that Cooler wasn't a planet buster, he actually states he could blow up the sun if he really wanted to.. this is what I originally said
Big words are not the problem here, your lousy sentence structure is you hypocrite.
Here's what you said:
Originally posted by fanboy 1988
I saw Piccolo get his ass kicked by Cooler who shot him with an eye beam the certainly didn't look strong enough to destroy a moon or much of anything for that matter..
"an eye beam THE certainly didn't look strong enough"
Okay you make a sentence like that and blame me for misinterpreting it? PSHAA! 🙄
Originally posted by fanboy 1988
Piccolo got by a fraction of the power Cooler had, Cooler didn't even need to transform to smoke Piccolo's ass...
Again, freiza smoked a planet using .01% of his power... 😐
It's just a stupid plot hole.. that simple.
Originally posted by KentoHe never really needed to. 😬
And the difference between them and Babidi is the fact that he's never shown he can fly fast. He's a magician but he isn't that strong in ki. Also if he had the ability to keep up with the Z fighters and had his strong of magic then he would have had no need for Buu at all.
Being able to beat on piccolo and being able to beat on kai's and sayans was a world of difference.
Originally posted by Kento
It's been a while since I read the DOS soooo yea I don't remember. But obviously if they were seen they weren't going speed of light. Actually most of what I can remember are Superman and Doomsday sitting there slugging it out. Not hard to see that at all. Even then though they were still able to create shockwaves with their punches that were felt in nearby cities.I'll have to go look in the respect threads of Logan and Spidey I've never thought of them ever being able to move faster than people could see.
And almost all of them really doesn't tell me what arguements you think have been ignored.
Again, what we see is slowed down for the sake of story telling...
just like DBZ is, we experience the fight's on panel as bullet time more or less (with plot holes here and there).
Doomsday's speed in combat has ALWAYS been a problem for superman.. it held true in hunter/prey and again in doomsday wars.. yes they are slugging it out, but by the time they reached metropolis they were blasting eachother through city blocks no one would be able to watch that stuff on T.V.
Okay... how about this for instance? Gorilla Grodd's watched Flash on a telemonitor... Flash has been hit with boomerangs.. does that mean Flash can't run faster than a boomerang? or are these for the sake of the story?
and yeah most street level being have feats like that.. Captain America moved so fast people thought he dissapeared.
Originally posted by KentoSlowest? walking pace...? I dunno.
😕 Also what was the slowest speed Flash traveled at before he was able to go fully light speed?
0.01%... Made me laugh. Jinzin are you saying Goku would win? So far all you have done is try and discredit Supermans abilities, power and the people who provide the evidence of his superiority. There is nothing that suggests Goku could even survive one all out punch from Superman to the head. The only thing Goku has going for him is his energy attacks. They are to slow to power up to be able to do any sort of damage to him and tire him out far to easily to be able to put Supes down for the count. Physically Superman is leagues above Goku and would dominate him in h2h combat if Goku could even survive the initial speedblitz. Using logic and letting go of bias and hate and looking from a clear perspective Superman wins the majority.
Originally posted by jinzin
His feats at SSJ3 are subject to what we like to call.. A PLOT HOLE. 😐Again, Akira stated full well that he wrote himself into a plot hole when he overpowered his characters at an early period in the series. But if you're going to ignore the basic concept of power levels and what they mean to the series then you're only solidifying my reasoning for abonding this argument earlier (hint: it has nothing to do with the pro-supes side having a good argument) . You're practically robbing DBZ of their powers by calling PL's worthless.. 😬
They are worthless, because there is nothing to back them up.
It's plain dishonest to say "Well they should be this powerful, but everything they actually have done and everything that actually happened doesn't show them to be anywhere near that powerful, but we'll just say they're that powerful anyway and ignore the actual events of the series."
Originally posted by Magee
0.01%... Made me laugh. Jinzin are you saying Goku would win? So far all you have done is try and discredit Supermans abilities, power and the people who provide the evidence of his superiority. There is nothing that suggests Goku could even survive one all out punch from Superman to the head. The only thing Goku has going for him is his energy attacks. They are to slow to power up to be able to do any sort of damage to him and tire him out far to easily to be able to put Supes down for the count. Physically Superman is leagues above Goku and would dominate him in h2h combat if Goku could even survive the initial speedblitz. Using logic and letting go of bias and hate and looking from a clear perspective Superman wins the majority.
you are of course aware that Frieza at 1% of his power deflected a blast that decimated a planet thrown at him by Vegeta.. one that didn't take time to power up?
No see here's the thing, everytime I've used a weak superman feat it's been to prove a point... NOT TO DESCREDIT SUPERMAN.. but that point must be flying over your heads.. all I'm doing is trying to demonstrate that low end feats for the sake of story telling don't depower a character... Superman can go lightspeed in flight.. and yet how many times has he struggled to get somewhere to save someone on time? They're plot holes and they don't necessarily reflect the premise of the character's capabilities.
And yes Freiza at 100% was in form 4 and bulked up.. when he started that fight he was 100% weaker and 4 trasnformations from getting there. When he destroyed vegeta he did it with a blast that took 6 seconds to make and he didn't have to power up to do it....
again... picollo blew up the moon at less than 1,000 if frieza's at a level of 500,000 it's simple to follow from there. 😬
But hey what do I know? apparently PL's are "worthless" 🙄
that's the REAL descrediting of characters' abilities here.
Originally posted by Endless Mikesee?
They are worthless, because there is nothing to back them up.It's plain dishonest to say "Well they should be this powerful, but everything they actually have done and everything that actually happened doesn't show them to be anywhere near that powerful, but we'll just say they're that powerful anyway and ignore the actual events of the series."
Originally posted by jinzin
[B]He never really needed to. 😬Being able to beat on piccolo and being able to beat on kai's and sayans was a world of difference.
So you just assume he can with no evidence?
Going by that logic, Superman "never really needed to" destroy the universe, so therefore he can.
Again, what we see is slowed down for the sake of story telling...just like DBZ is, we experience the fight's on panel as bullet time more or less (with plot holes here and there).
Doomsday's speed in combat has ALWAYS been a problem for superman.. it held true in hunter/prey and again in doomsday wars.. yes they are slugging it out, but by the time they reached metropolis they were blasting eachother through city blocks no one would be able to watch that stuff on T.V.
Because Doomsday's reaction speed greatly outclasses his combat speed.
Okay... how about this for instance? Gorilla Grodd's watched Flash on a telemonitor... Flash has been hit with boomerangs.. does that mean Flash can't run faster than a boomerang? or are these for the sake of the story?
It doesn't matter. Flash has tons of FTL feats, DBZ characters have none. Get over it.
and yeah most street level being have feats like that.. Captain America moved so fast people thought he dissapeared.
Because he is much faster and more agile than a normal person. He's dodged bullets multiple times.
Originally posted by Endless Mikeaside from being able to react to piccolo? 😕 It's no worse than you assuming he couldn't when he did.. 😬
So you just assume he can with no evidence?
Originally posted by Endless Mike😂
Going by that logic, Superman "never really needed to" destroy the universe, so therefore he can.
Originally posted by Endless MikeThey're the same.. 😐
Because Doomsday's reaction speed greatly outclasses his combat speed.
Originally posted by Endless MikeIt does matter.. since that's the point I'm trying to convey here...
It doesn't matter. Flash has tons of FTL feats, DBZ characters have none. Get over it.
DBZ characters DO have those feats.. but if you ignore PL's then you wouldn't know that.
Originally posted by Endless Mikeyou're missing the point again.. 😐
Because he is much faster and more agile than a normal person. He's dodged bullets multiple times.
Originally posted by jinzin
I'm not really sure how it does. I'm not trying to downplay anything, I'm just keeping things in perspective.
Goku was weakened when he drew in the energy for the spirit bomb, when he was "begging" for it, it was hard to get because the planet was damn near decimated . 😬
Cool. Then don't you think having access to practically ALL energy around you almost instantaneously would be a lot better than having to charge up slowly with basically 1 type of energy?
Originally posted by jinzin
you are of course aware that Frieza at 1% of his power deflected a blast that decimated a planet thrown at him by Vegeta.. one that didn't take time to power up?
Wrong. Vegeta fired a blast at him, Frieza kicked it away. It was never stated or shown anywhere how powerful said blast was.
No see here's the thing, everytime I've used a weak superman feat it's been to prove a point... NOT TO DESCREDIT SUPERMAN.. but that point must be flying over your heads.. all I'm doing is trying to demonstrate that low end feats for the sake of story telling don't depower a character... Superman can go lightspeed in flight.. and yet how many times has he struggled to get somewhere to save someone on time? They're plot holes and they don't necessarily reflect the premise of the character's capabilities.
He's flown across the world in less than a second to save someone and been back before people have even noticed he's left. This is a normal thing to him. The only time he "struggles to get somewhere to save someone in time" is when it's a really powerful/deadly threat or when it's interplanetary distance or above, or when he's depowered, or when he's afraid of harming people by flying too fast in the atmosphere.... etc.
And yes Freiza at 100% was in form 4 and bulked up.. when he started that fight he was 100% weaker and 4 trasnformations from getting there. When he destroyed vegeta he did it with a blast that took 6 seconds to make and he didn't have to power up to do it....
Wrong. It was never shown how Frieza destroyed planet Vegeta, it was only stated. The anime and movies that showed it were fillers.
again... picollo blew up the moon at less than 1,000 if frieza's at a level of 500,000 it's simple to follow from there. 😬
Except for the fact that power levels are meaningless....
Not to mention that it would take almost 2000 times as much energy to destroy the earth as it would take to destroy the moon anyway, 500 times wouldn't cut it.
But hey what do I know? apparently PL's are "worthless"
Which they are, and they will continue to be, unless you demonstrated a clear and precise mathematical relationship between power level and destructive capacity proven with the laws of physics and mathematics using evidence from the canon manga.
that's the REAL descrediting of characters' abilities here.
Yes, judging characters by what they actually have accomplished, instead of what you think a bunch of meaningless numbers means they might be able to accomplish, is "discrediting their abilities". 😆
Originally posted by jinzin
aside from being able to react to piccolo? 😕 It's no worse than you assuming he couldn't when he did.. 😬
Yes, "reacting to Picollo", that's a huge feat, when he walks right up and announces his intentions before attacking. 🙄
😂
That's the same logic you're using.
They're the same.. 😐
Sorry, I meant his reaction speed outclasses his travel speed.
It does matter.. since that's the point I'm trying to convey here...DBZ characters DO have those feats.. but if you ignore PL's then you wouldn't know that.
Power levels =/= feats. Get it through your head.
The actual performance of DBZ characters does not put them anywhere near what you and your power level wanking suggests.
you're missing the point again.. 😐
You have no point, other than being a wanker.
Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
Cool. Then don't you think having access to practically ALL energy around you almost instantaneously would be a lot better than having to charge up slowly with basically 1 type of energy?
depends.. getting a lot of different energy from a lot of different sources is nice... but spending some time to gather up energy from a few sources more powerful (VASTLY at that) than the majority? see that's where a grey line's kinda drawn.