Originally posted by jinzin
exactly.. it's like my argument being DBZ vs. justice league superman from the toon.. it's irrilevant to the thread I'm in... you're doing that RIGHT NOW.. we're not DISCUSSING manga DBZ because this thread outright attacked GT... why discuss DBZ manga only then? 😕 is this really so hard to grasp?
I've been using current comicbook Superman vs. DBZ the manga, which is the cannon source material of DBZ. I never used GT or moives. 😕
Originally posted by dvampireand you're certain goku doesn't hold back?
Maybe because like all of his fights, he holds back. And Darkseid has Superspeed just like his son Orion. When both him and Orion was fighting, they were using superspeed.
also superman DOES NOT hold back against darksied... ALSO.. where ANYWHERE has darksied proven to have speed anywhere NEAR supe's level? and orion isn't his genetic con so I'm not sure how that's even relivant here...
Originally posted by dvampire
And why whould Supes kill. He's has always been protrayed to hold back from harming other people, he won't just up and kill.
Originally posted by dvampire
You're starting to sound like a kid Jinzin (I hope your not older then me). 😕
me? dude you're BLATENTLY ignoring the basis of this thread.
Originally posted by dvampireexcept that their attacks were going right through him... 😐
1. One is moving fast that others can't see him move (Goku), while the other is capable of moving so fast that he phases right through on-coming beams (Superman).
Originally posted by dvampire
3. And Spiderman still dodged lasers.http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=6634101
Even Gambit does it.
http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/9139/gambit05115fh.jpg
Is he light speed now too? 😕
and not only does gambit have superhuman reflexes but those are not lasers they're plasma bolts.. AND on top of that you STILL have not produced a feat like the one I'm asking for...
Originally posted by dvampireAre you kidding me 🤨 your deluded. I could write a five page essay on how wrong those statements are.
1. DBZ characters never moved so fast that they body became intangible or invisible, they have never used their speed to create tornados, or moved so fast that they contain a nuclear explosion with their speed. So Supes does indeed have the speed advantage.2. Recoom and Burter was just too slow along with the other that were watching Goku. They wasn't fast enough to see him move, he wasn't vibrating, he was just to fast to be seen by slower characters (Vegeta was only able to see Goku's foot prints when was moving from their attacks). This never happened in the manga btw. So again, they're not light speed.
3. Spiderman dodges beams even at close range, and he does it much easier then what Raditz has done. Do you think he's light speed too then?
and you're certain goku doesn't hold back?also superman DOES NOT hold back against darksied... ALSO.. where ANYWHERE has darksied proven to have speed anywhere NEAR supe's level? and orion isn't his genetic con so I'm not sure how that's even relivant here...
In Darkseid's first post crisis appearance Superman said he moved so fast he couldn't even see him move.
frieza has created tsunami's with his power. and planetary storms..
cell has forced planets accross several galaxies to quake just by powering up. Has superman shaken planets accross several galaxies without touching them?
Superman's power is internalised. If how a fighter effected their environment when fighting was a factor the Androids would be weaker than Nappa.
anyway theirs no point in argueing these threads. DBZ works on a different base of physics and laws. It really can't be applied to comics. But about speed I will say this, Superman has not shown speed anywhere near Instant transmission.
Infinite crisis had Superman cris crossing the universe. Also since we're using GT here. IT was so effective against Super 17 wasn't it?
again that's not good enough.. spiderman has spider sense... he needs to dodge the beam after it's been shot directly at him for the feat to count...
and not only does gambit have superhuman reflexes but those are not lasers they're plasma bolts.. AND on top of that you STILL have not produced a feat like the one I'm asking for...
The point still stands. They are dodging beam weapons much faster than themselves. Which makes the comparison valid. Dodging incoming beam weaponry is not proof you can travel faster than it. No DBZ fan has been able to come up with feats that show a DBZ character can move faster than light. Give me that and we'll talk.
Originally posted by Galvaclawso crisis on infinate earths means nothing to darksied then? 😕
In Darkseid's first post crisis appearance Superman said he moved so fast he couldn't even see him move.
Originally posted by Galvaclawwell for one androids didn't generate ki like everyone else. for two they actually CARED about the inhabitants on the planet as that was their source of entertainment.
Superman's power is internalised. If how a fighter effected their environment when fighting was a factor the Androids would be weaker than Nappa.
Originally posted by Galvaclawandroids again bad example... kinda hard to pull anything on a guy who knows everything you're going to throw before you do it, damned andorid data files.
Infinite crisis had Superman cris crossing the universe. Also since we're using GT here. IT was so effective against Super 17 wasn't it?
how fast was PC supes doing this?
Originally posted by Galvaclawit does matter since that's what we're trying to find. using evasive maneuvars and literally dodging something after it's been fired are different things. with spiderman he dodges BEFORE it's been fired.. its not valid at all.
The point still stands. They are dodging beam weapons much faster than themselves. Which makes the comparison valid. Dodging incoming beam weaponry is not proof you can travel faster than it. No DBZ fan has been able to come up with feats that show a DBZ character can move faster than light. Give me that and we'll talk.
so crisis on infinate earths means nothing to darksied then?
Eh? I was using this as an example of darkseid using superspeed. it has nothing do with the crisis other than when it happened.
well for one androids didn't generate ki like everyone else. for two they actually CARED about the inhabitants on the planet as that was their source of entertainment.
Neither does Superman which is why the way someone effects the environment is not away to determine battle strength.
androids again bad example... kinda hard to pull anything on a guy who knows everything you're going to throw before you do it, damned andorid data files.how fast was PC supes doing this?
I thought 17 could do it because he could sense what Goku was doing. Also I'd have to think Goku's combat technique had changed in the decades since Gero made his records.
I can't give an estimate, as there were no times given. He was travelling as fast as E-2 superman but slower than Superboy prime. Whatever it was he had vast faster than light speed.
I hate to disprove you Jinzin, espesscialy when I'm on your side but this should put all doubts to rest on whether IT is teleportation.
But now to redeem myself for the DBZ side here are scenes from the manga of Goku using Instant Transmission without any effort to aid him in his fights, prooving that he can teleport and attack, and also teleport without having to think about it for 5 minuits.
Goku vs Kid Buu
Goku Vs Cell.
Originally posted by Galvaclawisn't that kinda important though? 😕
Eh? I was using this as an example of darkseid using superspeed. it has nothing do with the crisis other than when it happened.
considering that pre crisis turned non canon since the crisis.. 😬
look, all i'm saying is that everyone is trying to make it out like you NEED to have super speed in able to hit superman in a fight, post crisis Darksied (from anything I've seen of him) has shown no superspeed that I'm aware of.
Originally posted by Galvaclaw
Neither does Superman which is why the way someone effects the environment is not away to determine battle strength.
It IS kinda important to note though.. cell's power has direct physical results on a planet that's multitudes of lightyears away.
Originally posted by Galvaclaw
I thought 17 could do it because he could sense what Goku was doing. Also I'd have to think Goku's combat technique had changed in the decades since Gero made his records.
Originally posted by Galvaclawso we can't determine if even THAT is faster than I.T?
I can't give an estimate, as there were no times given. He was travelling as fast as E-2 superman but slower than Superboy prime. Whatever it was he had vast faster than light speed.
superman may be stronger than goku but when it comes to fighting skills, whoa now theres the huge gap..also ssj2 goku is well above surfer in terms of energy projection, add to that his fighting skills and youve got a major curbstomp here..punches that could shatter planets, energy blasts that could shatter planets, plus instant transmission vs superstrength, superspeed, heat vision etc..goku 10/10
.......and superman does not have a stronger willpower than goku
