Originally posted by darthsith19
Obi-Wan wins. He was said to be virtually unstoppable with a lightsaber, like a wall or something. Dooku'd get tired before Obi-Wan would and I highly doubt any saber atatcks Dooku did could get past kenobi's defenses.
Originally posted by BlaxicanTroller
But they BOTH use minimum energy, so Dooku's style using minimum enery doesn't really matter. And at that time Obi-Wan hadn't mastered Soresu yet. But at the time of Rots you'll notice that Oni-Wan's gaurd was never penetrated the entire movie.
Originally posted by BlaxicanTroller
What proof do we have of that?
Originally posted by BlaxicanTroller
Please don't tell ME about talking shit. Why don't you go look at your own idiotic posts in the "it isn't fair" topic before saying anything I have said is sh*t. In the novel he fights Obi-Wan one on one for about a minute or two. And yes, the novel IS CANNON BECAUSE IT IS NOT CONTRADICTING THE MOVIE!!! I AM SAYING THIS TO EVERYONE WHO KEEPS SAYING THAT THE ROTS NOVEL IS NOT CANNON!Get your facts straight before insulting me kid.
The same novel that says Dooku was toying with him ? And because Dooku couldn't get through Obi-Wan's defence in AotC Obi-Wan ends up with his arm and leg injured and unable to continue battle ? Great.
Aside of this it's stated that Dooku outduelled Masters and even Council Members before he left the order without any use of the force. So why should he suddenly have a problem with Obi-Wan especially when we see that Obi-Wan and Anakin together aren't able to get through his defence ?
Dooku easily wins this imho. Both styles are similar: Soresu is all about defence and tiring out your opponent, and draws out long fights, however Makashi uses minimal energy which counters the tiring out factor of Soresu and is much more effective in breaking down someone's defences (it was bred for saber combat). Not to mention the fact that Dooku has decades more experience then Obi-Wan, and has been able to easily handle him on many occasions including ROTS.
The same novel that says Dooku was toying with him ?
Yeah but the novel says Obi-Wan is toying with Dooku as well.
And because Dooku couldn't get through Obi-Wan's defence in AotC Obi-Wan ends up with his arm and leg injured and unable to continue battle ?
Obi-Wan was not a Soresu master in AotC...
So why should he suddenly have a problem with Obi-Wan especially when we see that Obi-Wan and Anakin together aren't able to get through his defence ?
Because Anakin, alone, owned him in half a minute.
I'm not Kenobi'll win; Obi-Wan seems to always suck when dueling Dooku for some reason, but he is strong in his own right. In a sabers only match I think it might be close.
Originally posted by Razielim
I'm not Kenobi'll win; Obi-Wan seems to always suck when dueling Dooku for some reason, but he is strong in his own right. In a sabers only match I think it might be close.
Well Makashi seems to be the most effective form against Soresu because it uses minimal energy which counter's the tiring out factor of Soresu, and is still the most effective at outdueling opponents through careful and precise means.
Originally posted by Lord Dragonfire
Well Makashi seems to be the most effective form against Soresu because it uses minimal energy which counter's the tiring out factor of Soresu, and is still the most effective at outdueling opponents through careful and precise means.
Soresu doesn't have a tiring out factor. It'smain goal is to use the minmum amount of energy by the user until his opponent tires out from all the attacking.
Or...I may have misunderstood you. Didi you mean that Makashi is the counter for Soresu because Soresu relies on it's opponent to tire out, but since makashi uses almost no energy the makashi user won't tire out soon, hence, the soresu user won't have many oppertunities to attack?
Originally posted by BlaxicanTroller
k, sorry about that. And still all you fanboys out there, yo've shown no proof that Dooku can beat Obi-Wan other than WELL IN AOTC DOOKU BEAT OBI-WAN SO!!!!" Which has already been refuted multiple times. So...
Yes but that is solid proof from one of the highest sources of canon. All you are saying is that Kenobi will win because he is a master of Soresu. True, but hardly something to base your argument on when Dooku is a Makashi master.
Originally posted by Rampant ox
Yes but that is solid proof from one of the highest sources of canon. All you are saying is that Kenobi will win because he is a master of Soresu. True, but hardly something to base your argument on when Dooku is a Makashi master.
ROTS Obi-Wan > ATOC Obi-Wan
Are you saying that during the Clone Wars Obi-Wan some how weakened in skill and power? Fact is Dooku used the Force on Obi-Wan in ROTS to defeat him and that same Dooku was defeated by Anakin without the use of the Force. Now then that same movie Obi-Wan not only outlasted Anakin in a duel but also defeated him.
Anakin was fighting at his hardest against Obi-Wan and still couldn't break through his defenses to win and here he even used the Force and disarmed Obi-Wan for a moment.
Anakin managed to not only break through Dooku's defenses but slew Dooku as well.
Just because Kenobi bet Anakin and Anakin bet Dooku doesnt mean Kenobi would beat Dooku. It is PROVEN that Dooku can beat Kenobi. So dont argue that. And yes, both men have grown in skill since AOTC, but there is nothing to say Kenobi has surpassed Dooku except your assumptions. So Dooku will win after a long (because of the Soresu mastery) fight.
Originally posted by Rampant ox
Just because Kenobi bet Anakin and Anakin bet Dooku doesnt mean Kenobi would beat Dooku. It is PROVEN that Dooku can beat Kenobi. So dont argue that. And yes, both men have grown in skill since AOTC, but there is nothing to say Kenobi has surpassed Dooku except your assumptions. So Dooku will win after a long (because of the Soresu mastery) fight.
No Dooku was hardly in any battles and usely spent his time spending out his lackies to do his dirty work: Asajj, Durge, Grievous, and so on. Obi-Wan spent much time on the front lines in some of the biggest battles of the Clone Wars. Fact is Obi-Wan had much to learn and much to approve on. Dooku didn't.
Obi-Wan clearly became far stronger then he was in ATOC and Dooku remained about the same.
And Dooku defeating Obi-Wan with the Force doesn't matter in a lightsaber only battle. And the only PROOF you would have is that Dooku had to use the Force to defeat Obi-Wan and then Anakin slew Dooku.
And yes I do believe that Obi-Wan defeating Anakin proves my point for Anakin couldn't even break through Obi-Wan's defenses after fighting throughout Mustafar and yet he did with Dooku in like 2 minutes.
Obi-Wan didn't want to kill Anakin or else he would have finished the job at the end of the duel instead of leaving him there so Obi-Wan clearly was defensive for that reason.
Originally posted by BlaxicanTroller
Soresu doesn't have a tiring out factor. It'smain goal is to use the minmum amount of energy by the user until his opponent tires out from all the attacking.Or...I may have misunderstood you. Didi you mean that Makashi is the counter for Soresu because Soresu relies on it's opponent to tire out, but since makashi uses almost no energy the makashi user won't tire out soon, hence, the soresu user won't have many oppertunities to attack?
Well actually Obi-Wan would also wait for an opening to go on the attack like he did with Grievous. He defended himself with Form III and went with powerful Form IV assaults when he saw an opening.
Originally posted by Sin Harvest
[B]Obi-Wan spent much time on the front lines in some of the biggest battles of the Clone Wars. Fact is Obi-Wan had much to learn and much to approve on. Dooku didn't.
You make it sound like Dooku didnt improve at all. Yes, Kenobi got better but that still doesnt put him on the level of Dooku who has 80+years experience.
Obi-Wan clearly became far stronger then he was in ATOC and Dooku remained about the same.
I dont see Kenobi 'clearly' get stronger. He still got wtf pwned by Dooku in about 15 seconds with Anakin helping him. Dooku might not have gotten much better in the clone wars but he is still above Kenobi.
And Dooku defeating Obi-Wan with the Force doesn't matter in a lightsaber only battle. And the only PROOF you would have is that Dooku had to use the Force to defeat Obi-Wan and then Anakin slew Dooku. [quote]True. But have you ANY proof that kenobi would win in a one on one battle without use of the force. No. We can only make assumptions on the facts we already have because they havent fought. So we know that Dooku has beaten Kenobi before. TWICE. That his style is made for lightsaber combat etc
[quote]And yes I do believe that Obi-Wan defeating Anakin proves my point for Anakin couldn't even break through Obi-Wan's defenses after fighting throughout Mustafar and yet he did with Dooku in like 2 minutes.
Its an A<B<C argument. So I dont think you can base your argument from it. Remebering that Obi-Wan knew all of Anakins moves and vice versa.
Obi-Wan didn't want to kill Anakin or else he would have finished the job at the end of the duel instead of leaving him there so Obi-Wan clearly was defensive for that reason.
I disagree. He probably thought that Anakin was as good as dead anyway. He isnt foolish enough to let someone like Ankain live. And anyway this has little to do with the argument.
YEah I forgot about that. Another reason Obi-Wan is so good is because he's got both forms down, and blends them together to have an almost flawless offence and flawless defence.
Thats a pretty big exaturation. Especially when he has been beaten by the Count twice before.
1. Dooklu DIDN'T improve at all, if not than BARELY, Dooku sat around in the background, pulling strings, sipping martinis, and getting his old man political charm on, nearly the entire campaign. Obi-Wan on the other hand spent the entire campaign on the front lines, fighting droids and Sith such as Assaj Ventress. Obi-Wan would be in a lot better fighting shape than the Count.
2. When Obi-Wan got WTFpwnd, if your referring to Rotsm guess what? DOOKU USED THE FORCE! AND THERE IS NO USING THE FORCE IN THIS MATCH SO THAT'S IRRELEVANT!111!111 So if you don't "clearly" see Obi-Wan get better, than buy some damned glasses, it's pretty easy to see someone's improvement when they've been bumped up to the rank of JEdi Master AND put on the Jedi Council AND titled THE Soresu Master. That's quite an improvement.
3. I agree slightly with this, A>B>C arguments don't really work that well, because there's usually some weird stipulation in saber duels.
4. I agree again. Matter of fact we KNOW Obi-Wan was going to kill Anakin, because if you watch the movie, there will be a part were Anakin loses his falls down and drops his light saber, which rules away. Obi-Wan walks up to him and raises his light saber, than strikes downward, trying to obviously strike Anakin in the chest. Anakin force pulls the light saber into his hand, ignites it, and raises it up in time to parry Obi-Wan's strike.
5. Thats not a big exaggeration, because...guess what, again? The first time Dooku beat Kenobi, HE WASN'T THE SORESU MASTER!!!! The second time he "beat" kenobi, HE USED THE FORCE, WHICH, IS IRRELEVANT BECAUSE there's NO FORCE POWERS IN THIS MATCH.