Originally posted by Joseph_Kerr
What is Truth? I believe there are certain Truth's that pertain to Christianity.[QUOTE=6840578]Originally posted by Joseph_Kerr
[B]1. The Bible is the inspired word of God and is trustworthy, powerful, and authoritative.
Agreed, as far as it is translated correctly. There are translational errors in the Bible. It is only Christians that hold the Holy Spirit preserved text view that claim otherwise.
Originally posted by Joseph_Kerr
[B]2. God is absolutely sovereign; he is all-powerful, all-knowing, ever-present, always in control. He is the Creator but is distinct from his creation. He loves us unconditionally.
Agreed.
Originally posted by Joseph_Kerr
[B]3. Jesus Chris is God who became a man. He died for our sins and rose from the dead.
Agreed
Originally posted by Joseph_Kerr
[B]4. Man is utterly sinful and can do nothing in and of himself about his sinful situation.
Agreed
Originally posted by Joseph_Kerr
[B]5. Salvation is a gift of God and comes by faith alone in Jesus Christ alone.
Agreed
Originally posted by Joseph_Kerr
[B]6. The greatest Command, and thus the highest pursuit of our lives, is to know God and love him with our entire being.
Agreed
Originally posted by Joseph_Kerr
[B]7. The Commission of those who know Jesus is to make disciples of him in all the world.
Agreed
Originally posted by Joseph_Kerr
[B]These are non-negotiables which every denomination of Christianity believes (except for a few exceptions). When someone says that Christians can not agree on what they believe and further proof that Christianity is false, they are mistaken.
It seems that Mormon belief meshes with these claims.
Originally posted by Joseph_Kerr
Funny Regret how you call the kettle black. As more evidence that you don't want to hear a single word that contradicts your beliefs no matter how much you "want to debate". You really don't want to debate or have an honest conversation. Mormons do not believe what Christianity teaches.. it is another Gospel all together. It is similar, but it is a wolf teaching in lamb skins.
I will hear valid evidence, but if it is an interpretational difference then you are only claiming that you know better, not supplying valid evidence.
Originally posted by Joseph_Kerr
sure, it may be convenient.. but I believe it is sound... no where is the minister of the people called "another christ", no where is the head of a church called "the Holy Father", no where does it say to pray to saints, therefore I do not believe that the Roman Catholic Church is Biblically sound.
What does your opinion matter in this case? Let me explain, you can have an opinion about a court case but it is up to the judge, not you, to decide the case. Therefore, if your god wishes to let Catholics into heaven, are you going to complain to god?
Originally posted by Regret
Agreed, as far as it is translated correctly. There are translational errors in the Bible. It is only Christians that hold the Holy Spirit preserved text view that claim otherwise.
But you had to justify it.. "translated correctly" is your escape if you don't agree with the Bible. It has always been the Mormon's escape pod if they are back into a corner. If it isn't "translated correctly" then I don't have to agree with it.
3. Jesus Chris is God who became a man. He died for our sins and rose from the dead.
Agreed
Do you really? You don't believe that Jesus Christ was a man who learned the Gospel just as his Father did before him and became a God?
"Just as man is, God once was. Just as God is, man may become."
President Lorenzo Snow.
Originally posted by Joseph_Kerr
sure, it may be convenient.. but I believe it is sound... no where is the minister of the people called "another christ", no where is the head of a church called "the Holy Father", no where does it say to pray to saints, therefore I do not believe that the Roman Catholic Church is Biblically sound.
Neither do I believe it is, but if the Holy Spirit was to keep things accurate it did a poor job. And, if the Holy Spirit did keep things accurate then the Church that is directly linked to Peter as the first Pope must be accurate. You can't pick and choose when the Holy Spirit did his Job and when he didn't. Either there are errors or there are not errors. You are saying that the lay people had right to take a position against the authorities in the Church. When did the Catholic Church make the fatal flaw that made it not Biblically sound? Was it before they ended the teaching of pre-existence (some 200 years after the Bible)? Was it before the Council of Nicaea (where the Trinitarian doctrine was adopted 326 years after the Bible)? If it is not Biblically sound, why do you cling to decisions, like these, it made about interpretation of Bible verses?
Shaky,
I don't think you understand. For a Christian, it isn't opinion, it is taking a belief system, comparing it against a Belief system that they feel is trustworthy and inspired by God, and declaring it doesn't line up.
If that seems too harsh, I'm not going to apologize for it. There has to be an absolute Truth to compare against or else every belief system is right. You would like every belief system to be right... but I can not live in a system where there is no absolute Truth.
There is no where when Peter became Pope. That's reading into the text to justify the Papacy. The Rock.. the foundation is Jesus Christ. The Church never went into Apostacy as the LDS Church claims.. can the Prophet pin point when Jesus let go of his Church and allowed it to leave? Can you give me a date or time period when Jesus stopped being the cornerstone of the Body of Christ... When in history was there not a single Christian? The Body of Christ is the believers ie the Church.
WE never went into Apostacy.
Originally posted by Joseph_Kerr
Shaky,
I don't think you understand. For a Christian, it isn't opinion, it is taking a belief system, comparing it against a Belief system that they feel is trustworthy and inspired by God, and declaring it doesn't line up.If that seems too harsh, I'm not going to apologize for it. There has to be an absolute Truth to compare against or else every belief system is right. You would like every belief system to be right... but I can not live in a system where there is no absolute Truth.
You do not know what the absolute truth is, it is unknowable. I see how this belief of yours can be evil to other people. I am not saying that you are evil, but that your blind faith can leave you vulnerable to being controlled by evil people. You believe that all Christians are good; but I tell you, this is not the case, some are evil.
Your beliefs have no bearing on my faith, so it dose not matter to me how you believe, I just want to wake you to the flaw in your belief. Only because it can lead to evil.
I quote the Bible because I am absolutely, positively, unequivocally, convinced and sold out on the fact that it--the Bible--is God's Word. Notice something folks. I have several hundred posts to my credit since becoming a member of this forum and not once have I called anyone any names. I have addressed you all by your forum names, used with all due respect frequently in some of my replies, and just done my best to remain civil. I have been accused of being stupid, cussed out on this forum repeatedly and called everything but by forum name on several occasions. I have been repeatedly criticized, demeaned, and ganged up on. Some of you have remained mature and treated me with respect. Just because I am solid in my faith does not mean that I do not respect anyone. I do respect all of you but I will not change what I believe.
Jesus Christ is the True God and eternal life, was crucified for the world's sins, buried, and raised from the dead. No other Person has been more maligned, hated, and blasphemed more than God the Father, God the Son (Jesus), or God the Holy Spirit. People use God in conjuction with profanity, "God_______." They use the Name of Jesus Christ like it is an interjection (e.g. Jesus Christ!). The say the Holy Spirit's Name in contempt as well (e.g., Holy______ or Holy that or Holy this). No other religious leaders names even come up in those kinds of contexts (i.e., curse words, interjections, and other blasphemous contexts). I have never heard anyone say, "Mohammed this! or Buddah that!" in any profane way. I have never heard anyone say the devil's name in a disrespectful way either. This ought to at least hint to the fact that Jesus must be the one, true, God after all. Just think about it. We say B.C. (i.e. before Christ, not B.S., before satan, or B.M., before Mohammed, or B.J.S., before Joseph Smith, or B.B, before Buddah). Why not? Again just more clues that perhaps Jesus is the true God. Anyhoo just thought that I'd share that with you all.
Let get myself ready for the backlash.
I need to go to bed.. I work graveyards and have to work tonight. I thought I would throw my 2 cents into the pot.
Regret and Shaky.. you are both alright. 🙂 I just wanted to stir the pot since I've been avoiding the "religion" debate for 3 years. 😉
Regret, you challenge us to study more pro-LDS documents... but those same LDS documents are what brought me out of the LDS faith and to Christianity. I know you believe with every fiber of your body that they are the same, they might appear that way on the surface, but they are entirely two different beliefs system..
I don't want you to leave the LDS faith.. I want you to understand that there is a whole different side that is no longer discussed and not allowed by the LDS Church... do a google on those scholars/professors and see WHY they were excommunicated/defellowshipped... they all loved the Church and didn't want it to happen... but they couldn't sit back and pretend that alls well in Zion.
Just some food for thought bud. 🙂
Goodnight.
Originally posted by Joseph_Kerr
I need to go to bed.. I work graveyards and have to work tonight. I thought I would throw my 2 cents into the pot.Regret and Shaky.. you are both alright. 🙂 I just wanted to stir the pot since I've been avoiding the "religion" debate for 3 years. 😉
Regret, you challenge us to study more pro-LDS documents... but those same LDS documents are what brought me out of the LDS faith and to Christianity. I know you believe with every fiber of your body that they are the same, they might appear that way on the surface, but they are entirely two different beliefs system..
I don't want you to leave the LDS faith.. I want you to understand that there is a whole different side that is no longer discussed and not allowed by the LDS Church... do a google on those scholars/professors and see WHY they were excommunicated/defellowshipped... they all loved the Church and didn't want it to happen... but they couldn't sit back and pretend that alls well in Zion.
Just some food for thought bud. 🙂
Goodnight.
Thank you, and good night. 😄
Originally posted by Joseph_Kerr
But you had to justify it.. "translated correctly" is your escape if you don't agree with the Bible. It has always been the Mormon's escape pod if they are back into a corner. If it isn't "translated correctly" then I don't have to agree with it.[B]3. Jesus Chris is God who became a man. He died for our sins and rose from the dead.
Agreed
Do you really? You don't believe that Jesus Christ was a man who learned the Gospel just as his Father did before him and became a God?
"Just as man is, God once was. Just as God is, man may become."
President Lorenzo Snow. [/B]
John 14:31 But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.
John 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Yes, these verses do state that Jesus did learn the Gospel. There is no doubting that, as to becoming a God:
Mark 10:27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.
God can make all things possible.
Originally posted by Joseph_Kerr
I need to go to bed.. I work graveyards and have to work tonight. I thought I would throw my 2 cents into the pot.Regret and Shaky.. you are both alright. 🙂 I just wanted to stir the pot since I've been avoiding the "religion" debate for 3 years. 😉
Regret, you challenge us to study more pro-LDS documents... but those same LDS documents are what brought me out of the LDS faith and to Christianity. I know you believe with every fiber of your body that they are the same, they might appear that way on the surface, but they are entirely two different beliefs system..
I don't want you to leave the LDS faith.. I want you to understand that there is a whole different side that is no longer discussed and not allowed by the LDS Church... do a google on those scholars/professors and see WHY they were excommunicated/defellowshipped... they all loved the Church and didn't want it to happen... but they couldn't sit back and pretend that alls well in Zion.
Just some food for thought bud. 🙂
Goodnight.
😉
I never claimed that Mormon doctrine meshed well with mainstream Christianity. They are entirely two different beliefs system. I have read the histories, I have gone so far as to even read the warrants issued for Joseph Smith's arrests. I have read the issues of local non-LDS papers that were printed at the time, the ones that are still available. I never claimed the people of the Church were perfect, there are things that occur, and have occurred, that are not quite right. This does not invalidate the religion in any way. I do believe it to be true. Given this I believe heavily in symbolism. I believe that much of the educated men in my religion, and perhaps all religions, will be similar to the Pharisees and Sadducees of the New Testament, and will deny Christ at the Second Coming due to the fact that he will not be what their interpretations claim he will be. I believe that Christs first coming is symbolic of his second, not the same, but similar in ways.
I have appreciated our discussion, but I do disagree with your views. Do not expect that I haven't done the research, I have studied claims against the LDS church for over fifteen years. I have come to the opinion that history is not evidence, and it is very seldom accurate. For every claim there is a counter claim, on both sides of the argument. I cannot judge which is false and which is not, thus my decision must be based on a study of what is present and scripture. I find mainstream Christianity is hollow and does not as a offer the works to keep its claim of faith alive, for faith without works is dead.
Originally posted by Regret
John 14:31 But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.John 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Yes, these verses do state that Jesus did learn the Gospel. There is no doubting that, as to becoming a God:
Mark 10:27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.
God can make all things possible.
Since according to Mormon theology Jesus is "A God". Which God does a Mormon go too? If you only go to "God the Father" as not "God the Son" then you can't get to "God the Father" because Jesus said, that "...no one comes to the Father except through Me."
If you go to Jesus then you worship two Gods and are trapped because the commandments say, "You shall have no other God's before Me."
If you look closely, this Mormon stuff get's you in a big pinch my friends. 😎 Why not trust in God the Father, God the Son & God the Holy Spirit as the 3-in-one (trinity) and then you won't get caught in this "which God do I really serve trap? 😮
Originally posted by Justbyfaith
Since according to Mormon theology Jesus is "A God". Which God does a Mormon go too? If you only go to "God the Father" as not "God the Son" then you can't get to "God the Father" because Jesus said, that "...no one comes to the Father except through Me."If you go to Jesus then you worship two Gods and are trapped because the commandments say, "You shall have no other God's before Me."
If you look closely, this Mormon stuff get's you in a big pinch my friends. 😎 Why not trust in God the Father, God the Son & God the Holy Spirit as the 3-in-one (trinity) and then you won't get caught in this "which God do I really serve trap? 😮
Jesus gave the example of prayer:
Matthew 6:7-14
7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
John 14:12-14
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
We worship and pray to God the Father in the name of Jesus Christ. He is our advocate to the Father. So we must state "in the name of Jesus Christ" prior to the end of a prayer.
I had thought better of you, but you can be rather rude. These answers are found in the Bible, why did you not read it and find them yourself? Oh wait, you didn't need to, it only works when discussing your opinions, not when considering other peoples, at least if they disagree with you.
Originally posted by Justbyfaith
Since according to Mormon theology Jesus is "A God".
* believing that Christ is also a God is NOT ONLY according to Mormon theology; it is also according to the Bible that Christ is also a God...
"While we wait for the blessed hope-the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ ,"
Titus 2:13
"Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:"
II Peter 1:1
* Saint Paul and Saint Peter addresses Christ as a great God and Savior... 😉
Originally posted by Justbyfaith
Which God does a Mormon go too? If you only go to "God the Father" as not "God the Son" then you can't get to "God the Father" because Jesus said, that "...no one comes to the Father except through Me."
* if a person believes that Christ is a God, that person can go to Christ... no problem with that... 😉
Originally posted by Justbyfaith
If you go to Jesus then you worship two Gods and are trapped because the commandments say, "You shall have no other God's before Me."
* worshipping Christ is NOT idolatry...
"And when he again bringeth in the firstborn into the world he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him ."
Hebrews 1:6
* the Father even let all His angels worship Christ... so we should too... 😉
Originally posted by Justbyfaith
If you look closely, this Mormon stuff get's you in a big pinch my friends. 😎 Why not trust in God the Father, God the Son & God the Holy Spirit as the 3-in-one (trinity) and then you won't get caught in this "which God do I really serve trap? 😮
* the doctrine of "Trinity" is not Biblical, my friend... 😛