CW Dooku Vs CW Grievous · Star Wars Versus Forum

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Dooku takes this...

Sin Harvest Sonic Speed

Originally posted by Darth Vious
Noo, because as mentioned above, that is only a training session, not an all out fight.

And yet Obi-Wan pwned General Grievous and Dooku pwned Obi-Wan. Dooku wouldn't need to use his lightsaber he'll force crush his head.

And that training session proves that Grievous couldn't even break Dooku's defenses.

Darth Vious Restricted

Originally posted by kamikz
What the hell, the same goes for Dooku. He was defending, not attacking.

It's one thing to defend yourself in a training session, and quite another to actually duel with the intention of killing someone.

Originally posted by kamikz
If he wanted to he could have made short work of Grievous, that is pretty obvious...

In that scene, yes, he could, because what you seem to be forgetting is that neither of them were trying to kill (or even harm) each other.

Originally posted by kamikz
And how exactly would a real battle be different than this?

If you don't know the difference between a real battle and a training session, then you will never understand the point I am trying to illustrate.

Originally posted by kamikz
Why would Grievous not use all of his skill if he was to be trained by Dooku?

Again, do you not realize that they are training, not fighting to kill each other. Grievous was not trying to harm Dooku, so he was not fighting to his fullest extent. Dooku was trying to instruct Grievous how to do something that someone would normally have to be Force Sensitive in order to do without killing themself, so it was not as if he could even use his 'normal' lessons. In an all out fight (which was my suggestion, not a training session) neither would need to hold back, but I can't decide who would win, because their skills are so closely matched. What Grievous has in speed and coordination, Dooku can counter with experience and skill, and vice versa.

Pyro Tyrannus "Nerd maker funner of-er"

Grievous is a bad mother-f*cker but Dooku is the shit. . .

the shit>bad motherF*cker

Darth Vious Restricted

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
And yet Obi-Wan pwned General Grievous

Sorry, but your Obi-Wan>Grievous Dooku>Obi-Wan so Dooku>Grievous does not work here for the following reason:
When Obi-Wan fought Grievous, Grievous was seriously damaged! In CW, Grievous held off five Jedi using only two lightsabers (held in two hands) He did not have to split his arms. Grievous only split his arms against the Ithorian Jedi and his friend as it gave him the element of surprize, not necessarily because it gave him a tactical advantage of more weapons to strike with. In RotS, Grievous had to split his arms and had to use four lightsabers just to face off against a single Jedi. Had Grievous faced Obi-Wan in the condition he had been in Clone Wars, then Obi-Wan would have been butchered. (For reference, Obi-Wan is my favorite character, so this is hardly me championing Grievous out of favortism)

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
Dooku wouldn't need to use his lightsaber he'll force crush his head.

Using the Force to definitely attack Grievous would have been against the Count's view of gallantry and honor. He only used the Force to put Grievous to the floor as a reminder (it was afterall a lesson) that Jedi could use the Force (which Grievous also showed the ability to dodge) He would have fought Grievous solely with his lightsaber.

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
And that training session proves that Grievous couldn't even break Dooku's defenses.

Rephrase that as:
And that training session proves that Grievous couldn't even break Dooku's defenses without going all out to kill him.

Pyro Tyrannus "Nerd maker funner of-er"

Using the Force to definitely attack Grievous would have been against the Count's view of gallantry and honor. He only used the Force to put Grievous to the floor as a reminder (it was afterall a lesson) that Jedi could use the Force (which Grievous also showed the ability to dodge) He would have fought Grievous solely with his lightsaber.

Don't get me wrong Vious but, Dooku is a Sith. They don't really have codes. . .do they?

Sin Harvest Sonic Speed

Sorry, but your Obi-Wan>Grievous Dooku>Obi-Wan so Dooku>Grievous does not work here for the following reason:
When Obi-Wan fought Grievous, Grievous was seriously damaged! In CW, Grievous held off five Jedi using only two lightsabers (held in two hands) He did not have to split his arms. Grievous only split his arms against the Ithorian Jedi and his friend as it gave him the element of surprise, not necessarily because it gave him a tactical advantage of more weapons to strike with. In RotS, Grievous had to split his arms and had to use four lightsabers just to face off against a single Jedi. Had Grievous faced Obi-Wan in the condition he had been in Clone Wars, then Obi-Wan would have been butchered. (For reference, Obi-Wan is my favorite character, so this is hardly me championing Grievous out of favortism)

Count Dooku said to beat the best of the Jedi he would near fear, surprise, and intimidation on his side. If you are missing even one of these it would be best for him to run.

Grievous didn't have none of these things on Obi-Wan in ROTS and because of that he was beaten.

And stop saying Dooku won't use the Force. You call Dooku this honorable man but he is called a SITH LORD. He used Force Lighting on Sora and Assaj and even threw Obi-Wan around like a rag doll.

And during their training session Dooku was pointing out all these flaws Grievous had in combat.

Darth Vious Restricted

Originally posted by Pyro Tyrannus
Don't get me wrong Vious but, Dooku is a Sith. They don't really have codes. . .do they?

As I said a while back to a similar question, I think there is a Sith Code, but I don't know what it is. Dooku however, regardless of his 'affiliation', was an aristocratic elitist, viewing himself as above people. He had a set idea about what was 'good conduct', and expected others to live up to it. (like in the novelization of RotS where he said that if Anakin was 'a gentleman', he would have learned to duel one handed rather than use a prosthetic)

kamikz A.I.M Mercenary

Originally posted by Darth Vious
It's one thing to defend yourself in a training session, and quite another to actually duel with the intention of killing someone.
In that scene, yes, he could, because what you seem to be forgetting is that neither of them were trying to kill (or even harm) each other.
If you don't know the difference between a real battle and a training session, then you will never understand the point I am trying to illustrate.
Again, do you not realize that they are training, not fighting to kill each other. Grievous was not trying to harm Dooku, so he was not fighting to his fullest extent. Dooku was trying to instruct Grievous how to do something that someone would normally have to be Force Sensitive in order to do without killing themself, so it was not as if he could even use his 'normal' lessons. In an all out fight (which was my suggestion, not a training session) neither would need to hold back, but I can't decide who would win, because their skills are so closely matched. What Grievous has in speed and coordination, Dooku can counter with experience and skill, and vice versa.

Why don't you get that Grievous was trying to win that fight. People can sparr against eachother and still go all out. Look at it this way. Both are fighting in a sparring match (Dooku is the one that is trying the least of both of them), so both are not doing their best. Dooku still beats Grievous with ease. Now both are doing their fullest, then again, Dooku should win....

Dooku seriousley had no problem to attack Grievous, he disarmed him exactly when he wanted to. He saw flaws in EVERYTHING, in a real fight Dooku would know exactly where Grievous flaws was and exploit them. He could either WTFpwn him with the force, or he could disarm/kill him in a lightsaber battle. Common, Dooku said that Grievous could not beat the best of the jedi except with intimidation on his side, Dooku even said that Cin Drallig and Obi-Wan could beat him, and this was before Grievous became what he was in ROTS. And LOE never says that Grievous got badly wounded either.

Sin Harvest Sonic Speed

Look Grievous is the same in CW as in ROTS. The only difference is that the CW makes everyone overpowered. Yoda and Mace were WTFpwning an entire Droid Army and whipping our star ships. In ROTS Yoda and Obi-Wan weren't WTFpwning the Clone Troopers but still winning.

Now then Grievous didn't have fear, suprise, or intimidation on his side in ROTS. He ignored Dooku's warnings because he got to full of himself and went all out on Obi-Wan and got pwned. So Grievous fled.

Grievous wouldn't have any of those things against Count Dooku who is a talented swordsman and strong in the Force. Dooku was pointing out Grievous's flaws left and right during their entire fight.

Darth Vious Restricted

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
Count Dooku said to beat the best of the Jedi he would near fear, surprise, and intimidation on his side. If you are missing even one of these it would be best for him to run.
Grievous didn't have none of these things on Obi-Wan in ROTS and because of that he was beaten.

Actually, Grievous did have them. He had Surprize (Splitting his arms to wield four lightsabers) Intimidation (by telling Obi-Wan he had been taught by Count Dooku) and Fear (from the combination of those first two factors. However, as I said before, Grievous was also seriously damaged. He was nowhere near the condition he was in CW when he could hold off five Jedi with only two lightsabers. In the condition he was in in RotS, he had to use four lightsabers just to stand up to Obi-Wan (although they were also deployed for psychological effect as mentioned above)

[Edit to add]

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
Look Grievous is the same in CW as in ROTS.

No, he is not. In CW, was Grievous coughing and wheezing like an asthmatic on a treadmill?
Why was Grievous coughing and wheezing like an asthmatic on a treadmill?
That is why he was not able to fight as well in RotS as he had in CW.

Darth Vious Restricted

Originally posted by kamikz
Why don't you get that Grievous was trying to win that fight. People can sparr against eachother and still go all out.

Seeing as you a few comments back you couldn't tell the difference between a training session and a fight to the death, not to mention my own experience in the subject, I'm not particularly convinced by your assertion that Grievous was going all out. The only reason Grievous would go all out was if he wanted to win (which would mean killing Dooku, and he wouldn't want to do that as he idolized him as a mentor)

kamikz A.I.M Mercenary

Originally posted by Darth Vious
Actually, Grievous did have them. He had Surprize (Splitting his arms to wield four lightsabers) Intimidation (by telling Obi-Wan he had been taught by Count Dooku) and Fear (from the combination of those first two factors. However, as I said before, Grievous was also seriously damaged. He was nowhere near the condition he was in CW when he could hold off five Jedi with only two lightsabers. In the condition he was in in RotS, he had to use four lightsabers just to stand up to Obi-Wan (although they were also deployed for psychological effect as mentioned above)
[Edit to add]
No, he is not. In CW, was Grievous coughing and wheezing like an asthmatic on a treadmill?
Why was Grievous coughing and wheezing like an asthmatic on a treadmill?
That is why he was not able to fight as well in RotS as he had in CW.

And tell me, how much did the intimidation intimidate Obi-Wan? How much did the surprise surprise Obi-Wan?

Actually, what is more canon, LOE or the cartoons? In LOE Grievous doesn't get wounded by Mace, in the cartoons he does. Didn't Lucas just put in the coughs for the audience to understand that he was more than just a robot?

Sin Harvest Sonic Speed

Actually, Grievous did have them. He had Surprize (Splitting his arms to wield four lightsabers) Intimidation (by telling Obi-Wan he had been taught by Count Dooku) and Fear (from the combination of those first two factors. However, as I said before, Grievous was also seriously damaged. He was nowhere near the condition he was in CW when he could hold off five Jedi with only two lightsabers. In the condition he was in in RotS, he had to use four lightsabers just to stand up to Obi-Wan (although they were also deployed for psychological effect as mentioned above)

He did not have surprise. Obi-Wan just watched him split his arms and then smiled. Obi-Wan had surprise on his side.

And Grievous didn't have fear or intimidation for Obi-Wan wasn't afraid of Grievous. All he did was smile and say "your move."

No, he is not. In CW, was Grievous coughing and wheezing like an asthmatic on a treadmill?
Why was Grievous coughing and wheezing like an asthmatic on a treadmill?
That is why he was not able to fight as well in RotS as he had in CW.

No the reason is stated above. He didn't have fear and surprise on his side. When he first appeared in CW he crushed a Padawan's head and the other Jedi never saw anything like that.

And him being crushed could be for 2 reasons:

1.) They didn't plan on Grievous coughing when he first appeared on SW
2.) It was in order to allow Obi-Wan to open his chest up

Grievous is the same in ROTS as he is in CW.

Darth Vious Restricted

Originally posted by kamikz
And tell me, how much did the intimidation intimidate Obi-Wan? How much did the surprise surprise Obi-Wan?

I don't know, I'm not Obi-Wan, and I haven't read that part of the novelization, so I don't know how it describes his emotional state. It's irrelevent of how they affected him, those were Grievous' intentions when he revealed them to Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by kamikz
Actually, what is more canon, LOE or the cartoons?

The cartoons are more canon, because they show the audience
precicely what is going on, where the novel requires the reader to use their imagination to 'fill in' the details...

Originally posted by kamikz
Didn't Lucas just put in the coughs for the audience to understand that he was more than just a robot?

Yes, that was Lucas' reason for Grievous coughing, but, they way he introduced it was by having Mace Force crush his chest in the cartoons.

Darth Vious Restricted

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
He did not have surprise. Obi-Wan just watched him split his arms and then smiled. Obi-Wan had surprise on his side.
And Grievous didn't have fear or intimidation for Obi-Wan wasn't afraid of Grievous. All he did was smile and say "your move."

As I said above, just because they might not have had the desired effect on Obi-Wan, that does not change the fact that those were the reasons why Grievous revealed those things.

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
No the reason is stated above. He didn't have fear and surprise on his side.

That had nothing to do with the fact that he was not in anywhere near the same physical condition that he had been previously, which is the reason he lost.

Originally posted by Sin Harvest

And him being crushed could be for 2 reasons:
1.) They didn't plan on Grievous coughing when he first appeared on SW
2.) It was in order to allow Obi-Wan to open his chest up

1) Lucas always planned on Grievous coughing for the reason mentioned above, it showed to the audience that he was more than just a droid.
2) How does Grievous' coughing allow Obi-Wan to open his chest? Obi-Wan was just trying to disable him further to win the fight, the fact he was caughing was beside the point. Personally, I thought that was a low blow from Obi-Wan, as I doubt he would have tried to rip an organic opponent's rib-cage open.

Originally posted by Sin Harvest
Grievous is the same in ROTS as he is in CW.

No, I'm afraid that he is not, for the reasons mentioned above.

Legion_of_Maul Cool Joe.

Originally posted by Pyro Tyrannus
Grievous is a bad mother-f*cker but Dooku is the shit. . .
the shit>bad motherF*cker

that was the most impacting speach i have ever heard...

Pyro Tyrannus "Nerd maker funner of-er"

Originally posted by Legion_of_Maul
that was the most impacting speach i have ever heard...

Lol. I would like to thank my beer of choice. Budwieser. Without it I wouldn't be here on these forums. . .

Legion_of_Maul Cool Joe.

*hands pyro his award* and the drunken king of speeches goes to pyro tyrannus's mother!

Sin Harvest Sonic Speed

2) How does Grievous' coughing allow Obi-Wan to open his chest? Obi-Wan was just trying to disable him further to win the fight, the fact he was caughing was beside the point. Personally, I thought that was a low blow from Obi-Wan, as I doubt he would have tried to rip an organic opponent's rib-cage open

His chest plates hold something very important, his interal organs. So Mace's force crush must have weakened it allowing Obi-Wan the chance to be able to pull it open.

And still no proof that Grievous became weaker. He didn't have fear, surprise, or intemindation. Grievous revealed his four lightsabers so that he would stand a better chance in combat against Obi-Wan. Kenobi knew Grievous had 4 arms. Grievous had nothing on Obi-Wan. Fact is Obi-Wan would have defeated Grievous whether it was CW or ROTS.

And you fail to see that the CW overpowers everyone. Mace defeated an entire droid army without a lightsaber. Man he must have wounded in ROTS or something.

Yoda's Force Push threw back hundreds of Battle Droids. Man Yoda must have been wounded becaus he couldn't push back a few Senate Pods.

Fact is that the CW overpowers all the characters. There is no difference between Grievous from CW and ROTS expect the coughing and that could have been done to show that he wasn't a droid for ROTS.