Originally posted by Sin Harvest
His chest plates hold something very important, his interal organs. So Mace's force crush must have weakened it allowing Obi-Wan the chance to be able to pull it open.
Originally posted by Sin Harvest
And still no proof that Grievous became weaker.
2) When he confronted Obi-Wan, he had to seperate his arms and use four lightsabers. He had previously only needed two lightsabers (in two hands) to face five Jedi, two of which, were on the Jedi Council.
Those are both examples that he was weaker than he was in Clone Wars.
Originally posted by Sin Harvest
He didn't have fear, surprise, or intemindation.
Originally posted by Sin Harvest
Kenobi knew Grievous had 4 arms.
Originally posted by Sin Harvest
Grievous had nothing on Obi-Wan.
Originally posted by Sin Harvest
Fact is Obi-Wan would have defeated Grievous whether it was CW or ROTS.
Originally posted by Sin Harvest
And you fail to see that the CW overpowers everyone. Mace defeated an entire droid army without a lightsaber.
Originally posted by Sin Harvest
Man he must have wounded in ROTS or something.
Originally posted by Sin Harvest
Yoda's Force Push threw back hundreds of Battle Droids.
Originally posted by Sin Harvest
Man Yoda must have been wounded becaus he couldn't push back a few Senate Pods.
Originally posted by Sin Harvest
Fact is that the CW overpowers all the characters.
Originally posted by Sin Harvest
There is no difference between Grievous from CW and ROTS expect the coughing and that could have been done to show that he wasn't a droid for ROTS.
Originally posted by Darth Vious
Yeesss... That is correct... I'm not sure what you're trying to actually prove or say there though...Let's see:
1) Anakin and Obi-Wan break free of their cuffs and start decimating Grievous' bridge crew. Grievous did not even attempt to engage them (two Jedi) despite the fact he had previously taken on five Jedi without a moment's hesitation. Regardless of Dooku's teachings, he knew that he was too weak to fight them, so he retreated.2) When he confronted Obi-Wan, he had to seperate his arms and use four lightsabers. He had previously only needed two lightsabers (in two hands) to face five Jedi, two of which, were on the Jedi Council.
Those are both examples that he was weaker than he was in Clone Wars.Yes, he did. A canon event.
Why? He beat Palpatine, and would have killed him had Anakin not cut off his sword hand.
As I said. He had the surprise of splitting his arms (which Obi-Wan did not know about) and the intimidation of telling Obi-Wan he had been taught by Count Dooku (who had beaten Obi-Wan at every encounter) so those should have provided fear. As it was, they didn't have the desired result, but, they were elements that Grievous thought he had.
How? It's certainly not mentioned anywhere in the movie, is Obi-Wan told about it during a 'cut scene' in the novelization? Even if this is the case, Grievous would not have known that Obi-Wan knew he had four arms, so he would still have thought he had an advantage of surprize.
Meaning what?
Obi-Wan would have been butchered by Grievous had he been in the same condition he was in during CW.
Yes.
He could. That's why Palpatine had to jump out of the way. During the last moments of their Force contest, Palpatine was actually the one who looked in the most trouble. They were both sent flying from the shockwave, the only reason Palpatine didn't fall so far, was because as he fell, his wrist hit a railing that he was able to use to hold onto and pull himself up. Yoda, on the other hand, wasn't able to get a solid handhold, so fell further and harder.
No. CW shows the kinds of feats that the Jedi and Sith are capable of, but would look comical if performed by live actors.
As I said, the coughing was done to show Grievous wasn't a droid, but, the way he was made to cough was when Mace Force crushed his chest, (and possibly also his head to a degree) which instantly made him cough, and may have also damaged the cybernetic enhancements to his brain which increased his reactions and coordination (hence why he felt unable to fight Anakin and Obi-Wan together despite having fought twice as many Jedi previously, and why he had to rely on the extra arms and lightsabers to take on Obi-Wan on his own.
1. Grievous didn't have any of the factors mentioned by Dooku, "intimidation", none, "surprise", none, "fear", none. Actually, it was Obi and Ani who surprised him. These were two of the top jedi duellists in the order, I doubt he dared, besides, the ship itself was coming appart.....
2. And for how long did it surprise Obi? Not long I tell you. It would have been different if it were like it were for those two jedi who faced him in front of Palpatine. He took them out during the duel, Obi-Wan had time to prepare himself for 4 arms....
Dooku said that he needed to "break" the targets before he engaged them. Obi was one of the best jedi in the order, Dooku said clearly that he should run if he did not have these factors. When Ani and Obi were on the ship they were 2 of the best jedi in the order, he simply did not dare.
Dooku also mentioned Obi-Wan in the line of people Grievous could NOT beat, and this was during the clone wars. Grievous knew this, he knew what Kenobi was capable of, he didn't want to take any risks, hence he took out four arms....
Nope I'm sure Obi did not know about the four arm deal, but he had more than enough time to prepare himself. And Obi already knew that Dooku trained Grievous (Grievous comics), he had been informed together with the rest of the council. Obi even made the bald comment, "your move" before the fight and it was actually he who engaged Grievous in a duel alone against a huge army of droids. Grievous still thought he could win and wanted to finish Kenobi off himself. Thing is that there is not a single sign of surprise or fear on Obi-Wan.....
Since Dooku who trained Grievous and knew exactly what he was capable of, said that Kenobi could defeat Grievous even during the clone wars, I belive that he could. He also said that Grievous never cold defeat the best jedi without those elements that has been listed above. Obi was around the 5 best in the order AND a style almost MADE to destroy Grievous. He was simply to good for him....
About the "Grievous being better in the CW", I don't know. LOE doesn't say shit about it...
Originally posted by kamikz
1. Grievous didn't have any of the factors mentioned by Dooku, "intimidation", none, "surprise", none, "fear", none. Actually, it was Obi and Ani who surprised him. These were two of the top jedi duellists in the order, I doubt he dared, besides, the ship itself was coming appart.....2. And for how long did it surprise Obi? Not long I tell you. It would have been different if it were like it were for those two jedi who faced him in front of Palpatine. He took them out during the duel, Obi-Wan had time to prepare himself for 4 arms....
Originally posted by kamikz
Dooku also mentioned Obi-Wan in the line of people Grievous could NOT beat, and this was during the clone wars.
Originally posted by kamikz
Grievous knew this, he knew what Kenobi was capable of, he didn't want to take any risks, hence he took out four arms....
Originally posted by kamikz
Nope I'm sure Obi did not know about the four arm deal
Originally posted by kamikz
About the "Grievous being better in the CW", I don't know.
Originally posted by kamikz
LOE doesn't say shit about it...
As I said. He had the surprise of splitting his arms (which Obi-Wan did not know about) and the intimidation of telling Obi-Wan he had been taught by Count Dooku (who had beaten Obi-Wan at every encounter) so those should have provided fear. As it was, they didn't have the desired result, but, they were elements that Grievous thought he had.
1.) Obi-Wan had knowledge of Grievous capablities of splitting his arms. At that time it was clear knowledge and the Jedi council sent the Jedi they knew would win...Obi-Wan Kenobi.
2.) And what does saying "I have been taught by Count Dooku" has to do with fear? Guess what, Obi-Wan taught the Jedi who killed Count Dooku.
Grievous had nothing with him.
1) Anakin and Obi-Wan break free of their cuffs and start decimating Grievous' bridge crew. Grievous did not even attempt to engage them (two Jedi) despite the fact he had previously taken on five Jedi without a moment's hesitation. Regardless of Dooku's teachings, he knew that he was too weak to fight them, so he retreated.
2) When he confronted Obi-Wan, he had to seperate his arms and use four lightsabers. He had previously only needed two lightsabers (in two hands) to face five Jedi, two of which, were on the Jedi Council.
1.) No he waited to attack the 5 at the right time. He snuck up on them and focuses on splitting them apart. He had fear, surprise, and intemidation on his side.
2.) Dooku points all so many flaws Grievous had in his fighting style. Obi-Wan's form focuses on defense and wait for his opponent to make a mistake. Grievous needed to use four lightsabers or else he would have been dead sooner.
Well, first off, we're not discussing LOE, so it's totally irrelevent. Second, I explained less than 12 hours ago why CW is a more canon source of information than LOE (as it shows it's audience exactly what is going on, rather than a reader using their imagination)
Fans of Grievous on several Star Wars forums, including theforce.net, have theorized that the loss to Obi-Wan Kenobi should not be attributed solely to the Jedi Master's lightsaber skills, but rather to the fact that Grievous was rendered practically immobile after his encounter with Mace Windu on Coruscant. General Grievous, as featured in the Clone Wars cartoons and the novel Labyrinth of Evil, is a highly mobile killer, who relies on his quick reflexes and agility to overcome opponents. This theory holds weight when observing Grievous's performance in the Clone Wars series, in which he outmaneuvers and destroys Republic forces with relative ease, contrasting with Revenge of the Sith, in which General Grievous relies on four lightsabers to overwhelm Kenobi. During the battle on Utapau, Grievous has apparently lost his ability to jump several feet in the air and his ability to run. His wet hacking cough appears to negatively affect his reflexes. By the time Kenobi is facing Grievous, he is no longer the stealthy, agile opponent able to rely on two lightsabers that he was against previous Jedi opponents. Instead, Grievous attempts to quickly finish Kenobi with four lightsabers and, as a result, loses two arms in combat.
However, some fans disregard this theory, as the Clone Wars micro-series, while canon, exaggerates the performance of major characters. For example, Mace Windu is depicted destroying a seismic tank using a tactic that involves Force Jumping hundreds of feet into the air, while Grievous is shown leaping nearly 100 feet to reach the ceiling of an Acclamator Class Assault Ship from the ground.
Another theory involves the differences between the combat of Kenobi and the other Jedi Grievous faces. In the Clone Wars micro-series, Dooku told the cyborg in training that he needs three things to defeat the best of the Jedi: "Surprise, fear, and intimidation." All of these were lacking in his fight against Kenobi, however, who ambushed Grievous instead.
In the novelization of the film, Mace Windu indicates that Obi-Wan Kenobi, with his absolute mastery of the defensive Soresu style of lightsaber combat, is the ideal agent to be sent to destroy Grievous. A barrage of lightsaber attacks from a non-force user like Grievous, even in close quarters, proved ineffective for the droid general. Despite Grievous' combat training mechanisms which serve to overcome an opponents patterns, Kenobi's perfect mastery of Soresu renders this skill obsolete since the simple function of Soresu is to deflect attacks of all sorts.
Windu also concludes that Grievous, for all of his power, lacks an appreciation for simplicity. Obi-Wan needed to do no more than wait out Grievous' attacks with his Form III and use some sweeping Form IV Ataru slashes when a hole in his offense is available.
Originally posted by Darth Vious
You haven't actually responded to the points I made, other than repeating a single part of Dooku's tuition. Respond to the points made, not just repeating irrelevent nonsense that has nothing to do with how Grievous was observably weaker in RotS than he was in CW (because of the damage Mace inflicted upon him)?? In what episode of CW did Dooku say that? I certainly don't remember him saying it at all...
That is partly correct, in that Grievous knew what Obi-Wan was capable of, however, as I said before and you ignored, Grivous had previously faced five Jedi (Two of whom were Council Members) without a second's hesitation, and only needed to use two lightsabers (in two hands) The reason why he felt Obi-Wan was a threat, was because he realized that the damage Mace inflicted upon him had greatly reduced his combat abilities, and although he deployed his arms as a surprize tactic, it was also because he had to use that many sabers to try and face Obi-Wan.
So why did you say that he did?
I'd've thought it was pretty obvious that he was better in CW as he could take on five Jedi with ease, avoided fully automatic blaster fire from multiple targets (and a gunship) and butchered about a dozen Elite Clones (who were guarding Palpatine) yet in RotS, he was unable to take on two Jedi or avoid single shots from a blaster that was pointed straight at him.
Well, first off, we're not discussing LOE, so it's totally irrelevent. Second, I explained less than 12 hours ago why CW is a more canon source of information than LOE (as it shows it's audience exactly what is going on, rather than a reader using their imagination)
What the? I responded to your posts. You made posts about 1, Grievous factors in the Obi fight, 2, Grievous fighting with Dooku. I answered both. If you can describe exactly what I missed instead of saying that I post bullshit I would be satisfied.....
He didn't say it in an episode, he said it in a book during CW.
And what was the situation with those jedi? They were all frightened of their lives, they were alone, broken, scared, everything you could possibly tell. Grievous faced them alone because he had all the factors. Beside, none of them were the best of the jedi. And the 2 arm deal, did he have the capability of 4? Besides, they didn't want to reveal that until the latest episode.....
I didn't say that, ESB did.....
The two jedi he fought were some of the best in the order, even in the top 5. One of which maybe was 3 or 2 and had a shitload of potential, another which had a style made to kill him. And he wasn't even prepared about that shot. And since when does Mace force crush people?
Show me proof. And CW overpowers characters like hell..... And I don't care, you are talking about CW Grievous, not CW cartoons Grievous only. It is Grievous during the clone wars, which means Grievous during LOE as well. Dooku clearly said that even when Grievous was as he was during the clone wars he could not defeat.....
Obi-Wan, Mace, Yoda, Cin Drallig, himself.....
Originally posted by Sin Harvest
1.) Obi-Wan had knowledge of Grievous capablities of splitting his arms.
Originally posted by Sin Harvest
2.) And what does saying "I have been taught by Count Dooku" has to do with fear?
Originally posted by Sin Harvest
1.) No he waited to attack the 5 at the right time. He snuck up on them and focuses on splitting them apart. He had fear, surprise, and intemidation on his side.
Originally posted by Sin Harvest
2.) Dooku points all so many flaws Grievous had in his fighting style.
Originally posted by Sin Harvest
Obi-Wan's form focuses on defense and wait for his opponent to make a mistake. Grievous needed to use four lightsabers or else he would have been dead sooner.
Originally posted by Sin Harvest
Fans of Grievous on several Star Wars forums, including theforce.net, have theorized that the loss to Obi-Wan Kenobi should not be attributed solely to the Jedi Master's lightsaber skills, but rather to the fact that Grievous was rendered practically immobile after his encounter with Mace Windu on Coruscant. General Grievous, as featured in the Clone Wars cartoons and the novel Labyrinth of Evil, is a highly mobile killer, who relies on his quick reflexes and agility to overcome opponents. This theory holds weight when observing Grievous's performance in the Clone Wars series, in which he outmaneuvers and destroys Republic forces with relative ease, contrasting with Revenge of the Sith, in which General Grievous relies on four lightsabers to overwhelm Kenobi. During the battle on Utapau, Grievous has apparently lost his ability to jump several feet in the air and his ability to run. His wet hacking cough appears to negatively affect his reflexes. By the time Kenobi is facing Grievous, he is no longer the stealthy, agile opponent able to rely on two lightsabers that he was against previous Jedi opponents. Instead, Grievous attempts to quickly finish Kenobi with four lightsabers and, as a result, loses two arms in combat.
Originally posted by Sin Harvest
Another theory involves the differences between the combat of Kenobi and the other Jedi Grievous faces. In the Clone Wars micro-series, Dooku told the cyborg in training that he needs three things to defeat the best of the Jedi: "Surprise, fear, and intimidation." All of these were lacking in his fight against Kenobi, however, who ambushed Grievous instead.
Originally posted by Sin Harvest
In the novelization of the film, Mace Windu indicates that Obi-Wan Kenobi, with his absolute mastery of the defensive Soresu style of lightsaber combat, is the ideal agent to be sent to destroy Grievous. A barrage of lightsaber attacks from a non-force user like Grievous, even in close quarters, proved ineffective for the droid general. Despite Grievous' combat training mechanisms which serve to overcome an opponents patterns, Kenobi's perfect mastery of Soresu renders this skill obsolete since the simple function of Soresu is to deflect attacks of all sorts.
Originally posted by Sin Harvest
Windu also concludes that Grievous, for all of his power, lacks an appreciation for simplicity.
Originally posted by Sin Harvest
Obi-Wan needed to do no more than wait out Grievous' attacks with his Form III and use some sweeping Form IV Ataru slashes when a hole in his offense is available.
Originally posted by kamikz
[BHe didn't say it in an episode, he said it in a book during CW.[/B]
Originally posted by kamikz
And what was the situation with those jedi? They were all frightened of their lives, they were alone, broken, scared, everything you could possibly tell. Grievous faced them alone because he had all the factors. Beside, none of them were the best of the jedi.
Originally posted by kamikz
And the 2 arm deal, did he have the capability of 4? Besides, they didn't want to reveal that until the latest episode.....
Originally posted by kamikz
I didn't say that, ESB did.....
Originally posted by kamikz
And since when does Mace force crush people?
Originally posted by kamikz
Show me proof. And CW overpowers characters like hell.....
Originally posted by kamikz
And I don't care, you are talking about CW Grievous, not CW cartoons Grievous only.
Originally posted by kamikz
It is Grievous during the clone wars, which means Grievous during LOE as well.
Re: CW Dooku Vs CW Grievous
Originally posted by Darth ViousTwo of my favorite characters here, so I can't be accused of bias towards either:
Grievous definitely has superior reactions and co-ordination, but, Dooku has much more experience and instructed Grievous (who clearly idolized Dooku as a mentor) so may be able to use that to his advantage (as Obi-Wan did in RotS)
[Edit to fix link]
Dooku already showed his superiority to Grievous during his spars in the Clone Wars
Originally posted by Council#13
😂 True, but still, Grievous was beaten by Dooku. In LOE, he stated that at times Grievous was difficult to best
Originally posted by PurpleSaber
Sparring still fairly indicates one's skills. If they were both trying to kill eachother, the outcome would still have been the same.
Originally posted by Darth Vious
Which book? LOE?
I've already explained why LOE is not a canon source. CW is an entirely visual medium. It tells its audience exactly what is happening, therefore it is the more canon source. It protrays events differently to LOE, and as a result of being more canon, renders LOE irrelevent and little more than published fanfiction.They were not scared when they faced Grievous, as Ki-Adi had raised their spirits. As for them not being 'the best of the Jedi', Ki-Adi and Shaak Ti were on the Jedi Council!!! That's not a f*cking commisary where they sit around shooting the breeze, it's twelve people selected because of their skill! Ki-Adi was (apart from Yoda and Zet Jukassa) the only Jedi who realized that the troops were going to attack him (as he had turned when he realized they weren't following him, so saw they were aiming at him) and able to put up a fight (only to get overwhelmed by the number of attackers) He's hardly one of the most popular characters, but, his performance against Grievous and in RotS cannot be denied.
Just because they didn't want to reveal it, that doesn't mean that he didn't have the capability previously. This is a case once more of plot requirement governing actions, however, whatever way you want to look at it, Grievous was able to face up to five Jedi with only two lightsabers in two hands.
What?
He quite clearly Force crushed Grievous at the end of CW.
The proof is in my above post, where I explain to you (for the third time) why books are not as canon as moving images.
If you don't care, f*ck off out of my thread, and don't you dare presume to tell me what I am talking about. I am talking about Grievous as in the Clone Wars Cartoons. Nothing else.
No, it is Grievous during the Clone Wars cartoons. I've already explained why LOE is no longer a canon source, and so totally irrelevent to the discussion.
I'm sorry, I haven't seen proof except you saying it's not canon. Show me where this is said....
Watch that scene again, they were scared. One even lost it and ran right into him. Ki-Adi was calm and tried to calm them, but not everyone was calm. 2 of them even ran right into him with their swords above their heads, he could take them out with his feet alone. Do you think he could take a jedi normally unarmed?
Ok, and what says he is better with 4?
Ok so what makes you think that Mace Windu, jedi master and wise would force crush Grievous, and Dooku, sith lord with 20 years more experience with the force would not be able to do the same.....
You haven't proven a shit, you've said what you think but you haven't said how you got this proof.....
Yes, and Grievous in LOE and the cartoons is Grievous AT THE SAME TIME. He was the same in LOE as well, just because he wasn't a cartoon doesn't mean it is not at the same time cause it is.....
Re: Re: Re: CW Dooku Vs CW Grievous
Originally posted by Darth Vious
Sparring sessions where no one intends to kill each other is hardly the same as an all out fight...🙄
So you think that because it isn't a traning, Grievous is going to have a bigger chance against Dooku? Wrong, he is going to have less chance. Tell me, how will he deflect lightning, how will he deflect crush/grip, how will he deflect Dooku's force control (he could clearly send him to the force even when toying with him). Now, how can he beat Dooku in a sword battle when Dooku has trained him in saber battle, how can he beat Dooku who easily disarmed him. What can Grievous possibly do better because he intends to hit him, Dooku will clearly do the same....
And you don't swing a saber and hope that you don't hit the one your sparring with, your still trying to go through his defences. You think that when Grievous used his unortodox fighting technique (where he stands on his hands then do a large sweep with his foot) is actually going gently with Dooku. Please....
And WTF, Jedi use the force for defence, not offense. I could say that just the ending part there in the cartoons is un-canon because Mace used the force to kill/wound a living being.....
Re: Re: Re: Re: CW Dooku Vs CW Grievous
Originally posted by kamikz
I'm sorry, I haven't seen proof except you saying it's not canon. Show me where this is said....
Originally posted by kamikz
Watch that scene again, they were scared. One even lost it and ran right into him. Ki-Adi was calm and tried to calm them, but not everyone was calm. 2 of them even ran right into him with their swords above their heads, he could take them out with his feet alone.
Originally posted by kamikz
Ok, and what says he is better with 4?
Originally posted by kamikz
Ok so what makes you think that Mace Windu, jedi master and wise would force crush Grievous, and Dooku, sith lord with 20 years more experience with the force would not be able to do the same.....
Originally posted by kamikz
So you think that because it isn't a traning, Grievous is going to have a bigger chance against Dooku? Wrong, he is going to have less chance. Tell me, how will he deflect lightning, how will he deflect crush/grip, how will he deflect Dooku's force control (he could clearly send him to the force even when toying with him). Now, how can he beat Dooku in a sword battle when Dooku has trained him in saber battle, how can he beat Dooku who easily disarmed him. What can Grievous possibly do better because he intends to hit him, Dooku will clearly do the same....And you don't swing a saber and hope that you don't hit the one your sparring with, your still trying to go through his defences. You think that when Grievous used his unortodox fighting technique (where he stands on his hands then do a large sweep with his foot) is actually going gently with Dooku. Please....
And WTF, Jedi use the force for defence, not offense. I could say that just the ending part there in the cartoons is un-canon because Mace used the force to kill/wound a living being.....
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: CW Dooku Vs CW Grievous
Originally posted by Darth Vious
I'm sure there are any number of threads and discussions here where the levels of canon are established, but I'm certainly not trawling through them to find one. To put the shoe on the other foot, what makes you so convinced that a book (not read by many) is a more official source of information than the cartoon (which would have been viewed by more fans)?Ki-Adi managed to calm them more than you give him credit for, and the saber technique they used is irrelevent. Anakin charged at Dooku with his saber above his head...
That's so stupid I'm not even going to answer.
When Mace crushed Grivous, how close to him was he? It was a long range attack. In a duel, Dooku and Grievous would be closer together, and Dooku would most likely not use the Force in favor of the challenge of the saber duel, because that would appeal more to his aristocratic vanity.
How old are you? (that is intended as a serious question, not an insult, and I will answer fully when you say how old you are.)
I haven't found one. Just because maybe more people have watched the cartoons doesn't make it more canon. If you don't want to give me the source then forget that I'm gonna belive you....
Managed to calm them? Say that to the padawan who rushed out and got crushed. They ran without any kind of defence, he grabbed them with his feet, 2 of them. Either they were stupid or they were to scared to be focused.... And btw, he assaulted them when they weren't prepared, every single attack he made surprised them (they had never even heard about his style of fighting) and he broke their formation when he attacked....
4 lightsabers doesn't mean your better. For example, you can loose control more quickly. I'm better with 1 sword than with 2....
So what tells you that they are gonna be so close? And that doesn't really matter, he could just reach out with his hand and deed done. And how the hell can you be certain that Dooku won't use the force, he used it during their traning duel.... This is not Grievous lucky day vs Dooku being gentle, this is Dooku vs Grievous, all out....
Why should I even think about giving you out personal info?
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: CW Dooku Vs CW Grievous
Originally posted by kamikz
I haven't found one. Just because maybe more people have watched the cartoons doesn't make it more canon. If you don't want to give me the source then forget that I'm gonna belive you....
Originally posted by kamikz
4 lightsabers doesn't mean your better. For example, you can loose control more quickly. I'm better with 1 sword than with 2....
Originally posted by kamikz
So what tells you that they are gonna be so close? And that doesn't really matter, he could just reach out with his hand and deed done. And how the hell can you be certain that Dooku won't use the force, he used it during their traning duel....
Originally posted by kamikz
Why should I even think about giving you out personal info?